Author Topic: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"  (Read 340019 times)

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Online Alex Nikitin

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #150 on: October 23, 2015, 12:05:12 pm »
A quick search on eBay US in the "Electrical and Test Equipment" section for few names :

Company / New / Used

Tektronix 1789/~15000
Keysight 646/4762
Tenma 84/140
GW Instek 223/150
Rigol 442/ 9
Siglent 214 / 1
Hantek 1052 / 0 .

Cheers

Alex
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #151 on: October 23, 2015, 12:07:36 pm »
Now I'm being really evil and sarcastic:
The first day of a graduate working at Siglent in any random department: go and do work without proper instructions and supervision... whether it is going through Ebay ads, write firmware, make a website...  >:D

IMHO Siglent shows a lot of signs of a company which is growing too fast and therefore stumbles over it's own feet. Taking smaller steps and create a smaller portfolio of instruments which work well would be a much better way to get to the top.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 12:09:50 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2015, 12:17:17 pm »
a recent college graduate - mistook the eBay ad for that of an unauthorized dealer. English is not this employee's first language and they obviously did not do due diligence in checking to see whether it was an an individual (as you are) or an authorized dealer selling new Siglent equipment. Siglent, like most every other company in this business, does not want unauthorized dealers selling Siglent equipment then disappearing if & when support is needed later.

Hey Steve. Thanks for chiming in here. I realize that you probably don't have anything to do with this so don't take it personally, but there are major problems here. There is nothing illegal about anyone, authorized or not, selling product. What gives Siglent the idea that they can go around flagging sales for trademark infringement just because they're not on some list of authorized dealers?

Where are the unauthorized dealers getting their stock from, anyway? Are you claiming that it's all counterfeit? That's ridiculous and I doubt you would make that claim. Unauthorized dealer stock comes from the same place it always has: either from the factory itself or from AUTHORIZED dealers that need to get rid of overstock but can't go below MAP. How do you justify claiming that the items are counterfeit just because an unauthorized dealer is selling it?

I hope you work this all out and move on, but it seems like a simple case of gaming the system and getting caught red handed.

edit:
For those that are unfamiliar with how this works, the basic scenario goes like this:

1)factory wants to move a lot of product...gives big incentives/low prices for large purchases or they have high minimums
2)dealer takes advantage of the incentives
3)they're stuck with too much product...they sell off overstock to unauthorized reseller at or below cost just to move the product (they've already made plenty on the rest of the lot that they've sold)
4)unauthorized dealers end up with lots of cheap, new product they can sell at well below MAP (minimum advertised price)

That's just normal in practically every industry.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 12:31:45 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Offline SLJ

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #153 on: October 23, 2015, 12:28:07 pm »
A quick search on eBay US in the "Electrical and Test Equipment" section for few names :

Company / New / Used

Tektronix 1789/~15000
Keysight 646/4762
Tenma 84/140
GW Instek 223/150
Rigol 442/ 9
Siglent 214 / 1
Hantek 1052 / 0 .

Cheers
Alex

Interesting numbers. Looks like maybe a policy used by other Chinese manufacturers also.  Anyone got a piece of used Hantek equipment they want to try posting on ebay?

Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #154 on: October 23, 2015, 12:30:44 pm »
Hey Steve. Thanks for chiming in here. I realize that you probably don't have anything to do with this so don't take it personally, but there are major problems here. There is nothing illegal about anyone, authorized or not, selling product. What gives Siglent the idea that they can go around flagging sales for trademark infringement just because they're not on some list of authorized dealers?

Where are the unauthorized dealers getting their stock from, anyway? Are you claiming that it's all counterfeit? That's ridiculous and I doubt you would make that claim. Unauthorized dealer stock comes from the same place it always has: either from the factory itself or from AUTHORIZED dealers that need to get rid of overstock but can't go below MAP. How do you justify claiming that the items are counterfeit just because an unauthorized dealer is selling it?

I hope you work this all out and move on, but it seems like a simple case of gaming the system and getting caught red handed.

Very well put, John! The only party Siglent could have any claims against is an authorized dealer (who has a contract with them), who resells some of his products via "grey" channels and thereby violates his distribution agreement. I assume Siglent could trace a specific instrument back to the dealer they shipped it to via the serial number, once they get their hands on it, but that is complex and costly of course.

In that situation Siglent have decided to abuse the "counterfeit" claim instead, and to attack the final seller against whom they cannot have any rightful claim. And that decision was certainly not made by a lone junior employee, but by Siglent management.
 

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #155 on: October 23, 2015, 12:36:53 pm »
And they blame it on the newbie, with 159 posts here dating back to 2013,  :-DD

The person that has made the posts going back to 2013, that your refer to, was a different person. The person that made this mistake has been with Siglent 3-4 months.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #156 on: October 23, 2015, 12:48:45 pm »
A quick search on eBay US in the "Electrical and Test Equipment" section for few names :

Company / New / Used

Tektronix 1789/~15000
Keysight 646/4762
Tenma 84/140
GW Instek 223/150
Rigol 442/ 9
Siglent 214 / 1
Hantek 1052 / 0 .

Cheers
Alex

Interesting numbers. Looks like maybe a policy used by other Chinese manufacturers also.  Anyone got a piece of used Hantek equipment they want to try posting on ebay?

Honestly, I'm not sure it's that surprising. Cheaper equipment doesn't really have much resale value. How much would I get for my used 1054z? Probably not enough to make it worth the trouble of selling. I'll just toss it in a corner and keep it as a backup. It's probably easier to sell my old HP Analog scope because at least that's something relatively rare. I'm really not surprised that there aren't a lot of used on EBay. You'd probably have better luck and get more money for it locally.

Maybe I'm wrong and the abuse is much deeper and more widespread than I would have imagined, but I'd like to think that they can't be that sleazy.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 12:53:20 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #157 on: October 23, 2015, 12:48:48 pm »
And they blame it on the newbie, with 159 posts here dating back to 2013,  :-DD

The person that has made the posts going back to 2013, that your refer to, was a different person. The person that made this mistake has been with Siglent 3-4 months.

Can you explain what is your official policy about blocking sales on eBay? Which ones will you keep blocking and which one you will not?
 

Offline Wirehead

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #158 on: October 23, 2015, 12:50:22 pm »

The person that has made the posts going back to 2013, that your refer to, was a different person. The person that made this mistake has been with Siglent 3-4 months.
So a junior with a lack of english knowledge has to take care of takedown requests on an english website.
A) that person has been put there wrongfully by management B) that person lacks any legislative knowledge of the country in this case (it's a free market and a free country!) C) a junior should not handle legal stuff that can bite you in the ass D) a junior does not work on his own, but takes orders. E) You're looking for someone to take the blame.

Select any that apply - but in this case; just choose A-B-C-D and E
"to remain static is to lose ground"
 

Offline sync

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #159 on: October 23, 2015, 12:52:08 pm »
A quick search on eBay US in the "Electrical and Test Equipment" section for few names :

Company / New / Used

Tektronix 1789/~15000
Keysight 646/4762
Tenma 84/140
GW Instek 223/150
Rigol 442/ 9
Siglent 214 / 1
Hantek 1052 / 0 .

Cheers
Alex

Interesting numbers. Looks like maybe a policy used by other Chinese manufacturers also.  Anyone got a piece of used Hantek equipment they want to try posting on ebay?
I don't think you can compare Keysight, Tek numbers with the Chinese companies ones. There are a lot of sellers of new Rigol, Siglent, etc. gear on Ebay. But who will buy new Keysight or Tektronix stuff on Ebay? Not many I think. It's the wrong market place for this. Also it's not comparable on the used gear numbers. You don't find a lot of decades old Chinese Testgear for oblivious reasons.

Have a look at the sold items numbers on ebay.com:
Siglent: 5 new, 7 used
Rigol: 15 new, 23 used
That's more reasonable numbers.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #160 on: October 23, 2015, 12:54:15 pm »
Select any that apply - but in this case; just choose A-B-C-D and E

And apparently the login creds for the Siglent EEVBlog forum user come stamped on the back of employee IDs.    ;D

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #161 on: October 23, 2015, 01:11:18 pm »
So effectively the resale value of Siglent equipment is zero. Excellent reason not to buy.

No it is below Zero, you have to be able to sell something for it to have a resale value.
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #162 on: October 23, 2015, 01:27:52 pm »
A Siglent employee - a recent college graduate - mistook the eBay ad for that of an unauthorized dealer. English is not this employee's first language and they obviously did not do due diligence in checking to see whether it was an an individual (as you are) or an authorized dealer selling new Siglent equipment.

While the current US Administration may indeed wash away responsibility for the actions of their subordinates, this kind of evasion of responsibility is not granted to businesses. The first question that you will be asked, is who provided this "recent college graduate's" training for the job. ESL or not, this is a very specific set of actions which have been performed. An investigation team will be more than happy to start passing responsibility up the food chain. Being able to take down the boogeyman image of a CEO is every Prosecuting Attorney's wet-dream. The absence of due diligence is not going to be a valid justification for the action, of can be heard "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Again, something that only applies to individuals and businesses, of which you are a part of.  You will have to explain how "new" and "used" are equivalent to the "new hire" and how he specifically went against his training. Siglent does have a new-employee manual right? If not, Siglent will not have any written document to cover their ass as an eager investigator gets to build a case with no resistance.

Quote
Siglent, like most every other company in this business, does not want unauthorized dealers selling Siglent equipment then disappearing if & when support is needed later.

Every other company in this business including the one I work for, which is a significant supplier of silicon into your devices, has a standard operating procedure of informing the purchasers of fake or fraudulent product who seek support to provide a purchase history path to assert validity. This, incidentally, only comes up if there is a support problem. A used piece of equipment does not carry such an agreement anyway, so this claim has no standing, especially against pre-emptive takedowns. This again will go back to you bearing the onus on explaining how a new college graduate failed to differentiate "new" (?) with "used." (?) [If my use of the dictionary is correct].


Quote
Again, this was clearly a mistake by a young employee at the factory who did not fully research your ad on eBay and your situation. She is most embarrassed for her mistake and we are all taking steps to insure that something like this does not happen again. As a note to all, you can always find a list of authorized representatives and distributors on the three Siglent websites.

By what standard do "authorized representatives and distributors" matter to the subject at hand? Are you inferring that, even for used equipment, such items must be purchased through these same channels? Which is it? Is it a matter being pinned to the new guy, or Standard Operating Procedure to mandate all sales, be they new or used (with the latter case being the customers who bought your product) go through these authorized sellers? If there is a mistake being admitted here, which is it? That you're sorry he didn't have an authorized seller resell his used equipment which he lawfully, and rightly purchased? Or is it that Siglent has made an error in handling the sales it has no business in, of used equipment on a trading site?


 

Offline snik

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #163 on: October 23, 2015, 01:34:05 pm »
And they blame it on the newbie  :-DD

Yeah, maybe it is true, but for me,  i don't believe this story. Alway hearing the same shit when something goes wrong, that one poor little employee has done it, and no other has known it...
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2015, 01:34:44 pm »
And here we go...

A Siglent employee - a recent college graduate - mistook the eBay ad for that of an unauthorized dealer. English is not this employee's first language and they obviously did not do due diligence in checking to see whether it was an an individual (as you are) or an authorized dealer selling new Siglent equipment.

So you're saying Siglent is asking unqualified staff to assess ebay sales descriptions written in a language they don't even fully understand, and then starts legal proceedings based on that assessment? Seriously?  |O

Assuming for a minute that this is true, it displays a shocking lack of professionalism.

Quote
Siglent, like most every other company in this business, does not want unauthorized dealers selling Siglent equipment then disappearing if & when support is needed later.

For T&M, the first and major contact for support is the manufacturer, and it shouldn't matter where the item in question was bought. And if you have problems with grey imports then maybe you should offer a serial/warranty status checking tool so that customers can check if and how long their device is supported. It's not that your competition shows you how to deal better with these things than abusing legal schemes meant to deal with counterfeit products.

In addition, this means that your employee (who represents Siglent) has willingly abused the counterfeits takedown system to stop a sale what he/she thought to be an unauthorized seller, while being aware fully aware that the item in question was not a counterfeit product.

Quote
Authorized dealers are trained by Siglent, supplied with technical and logistical information and support, updates, literature, etc. An authorized dealer does not work with us has no direct communication with Siglent. TEquipment is one of our important authorized distributors and we have contact with them almost every single day.

Great, but that still doesn't give Siglent the right to mingle into sales of "unauthorized" dealers. And even less so to abuse the ebay takedown system.

Quote
Again, this was clearly a mistake by a young employee at the factory who did not fully research your ad on eBay and your situation. She is most embarrassed for her mistake and we are all taking steps to insure that something like this does not happen again.

Yeah, sure. Until you put the next graduate in charge of searching for "unauthorized" sales.

The fact alone that a graduate who doesn't speak English is left to decide about legal proceedings is borderline criminally negligent, even more so when it's not checked and approved by a senior professional.

Having worked in the test equipment industry since 1978 let me say this about Siglent. I have worked for Siglent for 1 1/2 years and I have never worked for a company that works harder and faster to solve problems that have occurred. With that in mind, I want to apologize to you as an individual and to apologize to you on behalf of Siglent Technologies.

Quote
Please disregard the Siglent employee's request for your unit's serial number. She is still learning, just as we all have had to do when we were younger.

Yes, but when I was young and inexperienced I wasn't put in a position where I was put into a position where I would make legal decisions for my employer.

Quote
Finally, one last comment about counterfeit instruments as I think this topic has been blown out of proportion. Again, I know of a single case of a counterfeit Siglent product. One. This is anything but a widespread problem. All authorized partner inventory is shipped to them directly from Siglent. They do not have counterfeit units. If anyone ever has a question or problem - we ask that you please contact Siglent directly, as this particular customer did. The problem was taken care of within one day. When there is any doubt, Siglent always tries to take care of our customers.

Which, again, is basically admitting perjury.

Quote
Siglent Technologies cannot have a company without you, our customers, If we make a mistake then we want to solve our mistake and make it right. We have made a mistake here, we are making steps to not let it happen again, and we want to make up for our mistake to you, OldSchoolTeacher.

Of course, I'm sure you'll try to buy his silence, I can see that Siglent has still hope that the problem will just go away.

Quote
Again, I apologize for our mistake.

Considering what has happened, the admittance of knowingly abusing a counterfeits takedown system to fight against unwanted competition, this is hardly good enough, and should (and probably will, I'll see what can be done about that!) have legal ramifications for Siglent.

Still assuming that what you wrote is true, I'm still flabbergasted how anyone could put a an inexperienced graduate with insufficient language skills into a position where she decides, apparently without supervision whatsoever, about legal proceedings to ebay sellers. Calling that "stupid" wouldn't even start to adequately describe it. Incidents like this should have serious consequences not for the graduate but the person who put her into this position in the first place.

It also raises the question why the initiation of legal proceedings are apparently decided by Siglent China when there's Siglent US, which should be much more familiar with the local laws and regulations than someone sitting in an office in Shenzen. At least Siglent US is there to offer the expected public apology  ;)

I'm sorry but based on the facts and your statement, it's looks like Siglent is a very unprofessional setup, something that was already hinted by the fact that they still have no working firmware for the SDS2000, which is on the market now for over a year. It also shows that Siglent management at least tolerated violating U.S. laws to protect their seller base.

That should have consequences. Really serious consequences.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 01:39:00 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2015, 01:37:00 pm »
Lets blame it on the intern  :-DD

http://dilbert.com/strip/2008-04-23
 

Offline tequipment

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #166 on: October 23, 2015, 01:37:07 pm »
Guys,
    I got to about the 5th page and jumped to the last one.  Several people in the Netherlands reported on this post they couldnt access TEquipment.NET.  I was testing some security settings and picked the Netherlands to test via my proxy and forgot to turn it off.  I did see a capcha issue reported and fixed it.  Thank you!

As for this siglent unit.  We only sell 100% new siglent items.  We also stand behind anything we sell.  This may be resolved as I didnt ready pages 5 to 12.

One of the advantages of my company is our size both big and small.  I am one of the owners here.  We have around 50 employees so we can respond quickly and buy in volume.  We are technical yet still small enough to react.  In fact one of my sales people skyped me about this issue which pointed me here. We sell enough to have a big impact on many of our vendors so we can also get stuff done for our customers. 

Thanks again and know we stand behind what we do here.  And thanks for the business!!

Best Regards,
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and Co-Founder
TEquipment.NET
 

Siglent America

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #167 on: October 23, 2015, 01:37:32 pm »
Our mistake was not based on this employee complaining about a used unit being sold. She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer. Again, her actions were not intended to be against someone selling a used piece of equipment.
 

Offline tequipment

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #168 on: October 23, 2015, 01:39:44 pm »
Also I can say that Siglent to stands behind their customers.  We havent had an issue yet with a problem where they did not step up if needed.

Evan Cirelli
TEquipment.NET
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #169 on: October 23, 2015, 01:42:38 pm »
Dear OldSchoolTechTeacher & eeVBloggers.

Overnight I learned the details of our mistake and here is what I found:

A Siglent employee - a recent college graduate ...

Again, this was clearly a mistake by a young employee at the factory who did not fully research your ad on eBay ...

Fingers only ever point downwards...right?

Only a junior employee, nothing to do with management? Not a mistake in the entire eBay policy?

Uhuh.
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #170 on: October 23, 2015, 01:49:34 pm »
Our mistake was not based on this employee complaining about a used unit being sold. She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer. Again, her actions were not intended to be against someone selling a used piece of equipment.

Again, the actions had to be directed by training. If this is in the SOP Employee Manual, there will be a problem. If there is no manual at all, there will still be a problem.

Siglent is not a government. It cannot evade responsibilities by simply blaming the person on the bottom of the ranks.

Quote from: tequipment
Also I can say that Siglent to stands behind their customers.  We havent had an issue yet with a problem where they did not step up if needed.

Evan Cirelli
TEquipment.NET
It's easier to push someone off a ledge from behind. And I don't mean this to reflect badly on Tequipment.net, who I think highly of.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #171 on: October 23, 2015, 01:51:48 pm »
Guys,
    I got to about the 5th page and jumped to the last one.  Several people in the Netherlands reported on this post they couldnt access TEquipment.NET.  I was testing some security settings and picked the Netherlands to test via my proxy and forgot to turn it off.  I did see a capcha issue reported and fixed it.  Thank you!

As for this siglent unit.  We only sell 100% new siglent items.  We also stand behind anything we sell.  This may be resolved as I didnt ready pages 5 to 12.

One of the advantages of my company is our size both big and small.  I am one of the owners here.  We have around 50 employees so we can respond quickly and buy in volume.  We are technical yet still small enough to react.  In fact one of my sales people skyped me about this issue which pointed me here. We sell enough to have a big impact on many of our vendors so we can also get stuff done for our customers. 

Thanks again and know we stand behind what we do here.  And thanks for the business!!

Best Regards,
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and Co-Founder
TEquipment.NET

Evan, there's hardly a bad word about TEquipment to be found anywhere. You shouldn't have to be dragged into this mess.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2015, 01:52:38 pm »
Our mistake was not based on this employee complaining about a used unit being sold. She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer. Again, her actions were not intended to be against someone selling a used piece of equipment.

How could anybody ever tell the difference on eBay?

Can anybody at Siglent distinguish a counterfeit unit from a real one just by looking at eBay pictures and descriptions?   :-//

 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #173 on: October 23, 2015, 01:56:13 pm »
Our mistake was not based on this employee complaining about a used unit being sold. She was concerned that it was a counterfeit unit being sold as new by an unauthorized dealer. Again, her actions were not intended to be against someone selling a used piece of equipment.

That would be the most sensible (obvious?) explanation as to what happened.

What a mess this thread is.... 12 pages of paranoid/reactionary drivel posted about a non story.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 01:58:06 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #174 on: October 23, 2015, 01:56:44 pm »
How could anybody ever tell the difference on eBay?

Can anybody at Siglent distinguish a counterfeit unit from a real one just by looking at eBay pictures and descriptions?   :-//

It's not about counterfeit products, it's about blocking unauthorised sellers.
 


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