Author Topic: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers  (Read 723007 times)

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Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2250 on: April 16, 2023, 07:45:35 am »
Like any signal processing device in this world, a Spectrum Analyzer (SA) has a certain non-linearity in its signal path. There are several parameters used for characterizing this, such as (1 dB) Compression Point (CP), Second and Third Order Intercept points (SOI, TOI). The latter are theoretical input levels (far exceeding the CP and also the maximum allowable input power) where the artificially generated, unwanted signals would be at the same level as the wanted signal.

There is no point where distortion sets in all of a sudden just like there never is a completely distortion-free region of input levels. We just have a region of weak distortions, which we still refer to as the "region of linear operation". This is best characterized by the 2nd order intercept for the even order harmonics and the 3rd order intercept for the odd order harmonics. Then we want to know the compression point, which marks the absolute limit of (predominantly) linear operation.

For distortion measurements (where we want the contribution of unwanted signals from the SA to be at a minimum), we have two contradicting requirements:

•   We want an input level as low as possible, because this will result in as low as possible distortion as well.
•   We want an input level as high as possible, so that even weak distortion products are not buried in the noise.

Distortion products tend to rise in accordance to their order. If we increase the input signal by 1 dB, the 2nd order distortion products will rise by 2 dB; likewise, the 3rd order distortion products will rise by 3 dB.

There should be an optimum level for distortion measurements – this is where the distortion products generated in the SA signal path drop below the noise floor, hence cannot interfere with the DUT anymore.

Example: If a certain SA specifies a TOI of +10 dBm and a noise floor (NF) of -110 dBm, then the optimum input level would be -30 dBm to minimize odd order distortion products. The formula for this would be

TOI - (TOI - NF) / 3;

For the 2nd order intercept point we could use

SOI - (SOI - NF) / 2;

In general, -30 dBm is a very common input level for distortion measurements with an SA.

The term "input power" in this context describes the level at the input of the first mixer. So it is perfectly feasible to feed the SA with a 0 dBm signal and use the internal attenuators to bring the level further down, e.g. 30 dB attenuation for the aforementioned -30 dBm mixer level.
 
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Offline DL4JY

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2251 on: April 17, 2023, 09:23:28 am »


Distortion products tend to rise in accordance to their order. If we increase the input signal by 1 dB, the 2nd order distortion products will rise by 2 dB; likewise, the 3rd order distortion products will rise by 3 dB.


That is the reason, why my old R&S SA had a little button, which switched a 2 or 3 db attenuator into the signal path - you were than able to see if the spur you are watching was part of a real signal, or if it was intermodulation of 2nd oder 3rd order (or higher) by seeing the nominal attenuation or multiples of it.
1763063-0
 
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Offline killingtime

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2252 on: April 17, 2023, 10:52:02 am »
Thanks for that detailed reply Performa01. The formulas are useful.

Some questions if I may;

1. The noise figure (NF) for the formulas is the *actual* displayed noise level given your RBW (& other) settings?
The spec sheet gives -141 dBm (typ.), but only with  att = 0 dB, RBW = 1 Hz, sample detector, trace average > 50, TG off. In practice, very few people use a RBW of 1 Hz & >50 trace average as it's so slow and not always needed. Increasing the RBW and decreasing the trace average will speed the refresh up but  increase the noise floor. I think turning the TG on also adds some noise, which is why Siglent turned it off to get the best DANL for their spec sheet.

2. Is 'Second harmonic distortion (SHI)' the same thing as 2nd Order Intercept (SOI)? Siglent have an entry for SHI but not for SOI in their spec sheet (see my post above for attachment). If not, can anyone explain what Siglent are talking about in the spec sheet when they quote -65 dBc / +45 dBm (nom.) for the SSA3000X-Plus?

3. 1dB gain compression is quoted at > -5 dBm (nom.) given fc ≥ 50 MHz, att = 0 dB, preamp off. Given this is so much higher than the -30dBm level discussed above, Can you think of a scenario where you'd want to drive the input this hard?
If you don't need to drive the input this hard then you wouldn't as a smaller signal would yield less amplitude compression. You'd just add attenuation before the SA, but in doing so you'd give up any very small signal detail as it'd be lost int he noise.

Presumably one case would be where you're only interested in looking at the fundamental frequency of interest, not bothered by harmonic distortion from the internal mixer showing up, 1dB of compression error is acceptable, and you (for some reason) need the dynamic range from the noise floor to the -5 dBm.... The only case I can think of is an amplifier with a very low noise floor but a large gain. If you wanted to see the amp noise as well as the large output signal then you'd need both a low noise floor from the analyser and the ability to drive all the way up to -5dBm.
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2253 on: April 17, 2023, 10:02:16 pm »
1. The noise figure (NF) for the formulas is the *actual* displayed noise level given your RBW (& other) settings?
Yes, of course!

The spec sheet gives -141 dBm (typ.), but only with  att = 0 dB, RBW = 1 Hz, sample detector, trace average > 50, TG off. In practice, very few people use a RBW of 1 Hz & >50 trace average as it's so slow and not always needed. Increasing the RBW and decreasing the trace average will speed the refresh up but  increase the noise floor. I think turning the TG on also adds some noise, which is why Siglent turned it off to get the best DANL for their spec sheet.
Well, it's always a tradeoff. If you need to measure very low distortion levels, then you will have to choose settings that provide the highest sensitivity, i.e. the lowest noise floor. For the usual harmonics of a transmitter, in the range up to -60 dBc, it should not be much of a challenge and you can use wider RBW. Practice will tell you what works.

Never use the preamplifier for distortion measurements, as it will lower the noise floor, but at the same time the intermodulation intercept points will drop by an even bigger margin, i.e. der maximum SFDR (Spurious Free Dynamic Range) will be reduced quite a bit.

Trace average does not reduce the noise floor DANL, it is just an optical aid. The noise level as well as low level signals are much better readable and distinguishable if the trace is averaged. Even low numbers (like 4 times averaging) is sufficient to get a decent effect and 50 times doesn't bring a huge further improvement in my experience.

The tracking generator TG is of course an additional source of spurious signals, so it's better to leave it turned off.


2. Is 'Second harmonic distortion (SHI)' the same thing as 2nd Order Intercept (SOI)? Siglent have an entry for SHI but not for SOI in their spec sheet (see my post above for attachment). If not, can anyone explain what Siglent are talking about in the spec sheet when they quote -65 dBc / +45 dBm (nom.) for the SSA3000X-Plus?
I could write a Novel about this, but I'll try to keep it short and simple. Either way, everyone using an SA should be familiar with these fundamentals…

2nd harmonic distortion is the amplitude of the 2nd harmonic for a given level of the fundamental signal. This is measured in dBc (Decibel below carrier). -60 dBc means that the 2nd harmonic is just 1/1000 of the fundamental, or in other words: 2nd order harmonic distortion is 0.1%.

SOI is the 2nd order Intermodulation Intercept point. To be more precise, we have to distinguish between input and output. We're generally dealing with input intermodulation intercept points here. The specification of SOI is rather uncommon, in practice you'll mostly only see the TOI (3rd order intermodulation intercept point). Why do we have that at all and do not just specify a 3rd order harmonic distortion instead?

First of all, 2nd order intermodulation products are the mixer products of two (first order) fundamental waves. 3rd order intermodulation products are the mixer product of the 2nd order harmonic of one signal with the fundamental of the other signal. In intermodulation intercept point measurements, both signals are the same level, and the 3rd order TOI is of special interest because it is the main cause of  phantom signals in receivers. Other than the 2nd order intermodulation products, which are at very different frequencies as the individual fundamental signals, the 3rd order intermodulation signals appear in close proximity to the wanted signals, hence cannot be filtered out.

So far I should have explained why specifying the third order intermodulation is at least as important as the harmonic distortion, even though both are correlated in some way. A frontend/mixer with low harmonic distortions will produce low intermodulation distortions as well. The beauty of numbers like TOI is that you have all the information in a single number, whereas for harmonic distortion, you always need to specify the conditions - at least the fundamental signal level in addition to the distortion figure. On the other hand, if I tell you some receiver (= SA frontend) has a TOI(i) of +30 dBm (a very good one!), then you immediately know that an input level of  -10 dBm will result in 3rd order intermodulation products of -90 dBm = -80 dBc.

Regarding the Siglent specs, the most recent data sheet does not contain the +45 dBm figure.
It shoud be clear by now what -65 dBc means in terms of 2nd harmonic distortion.
Maybe the +45 dBm were meant as a hint on the SOI – +45 dBm sounds at least plausible for this.


3. 1dB gain compression is quoted at > -5 dBm (nom.) given fc ≥ 50 MHz, att = 0 dB, preamp off. Given this is so much higher than the -30dBm level discussed above, Can you think of a scenario where you'd want to drive the input this hard?
If you don't need to drive the input this hard then you wouldn't as a smaller signal would yield less amplitude compression. You'd just add attenuation before the SA, but in doing so you'd give up any very small signal detail as it'd be lost int he noise.
Of course there are a few scenarios where the distortion of the SA frontend isn't a problem. Think of phase noise measurements for example. Since the CP already has 1 dB amplitude compression, we generally don't want to drive the input that hard indeed. I recommend to stay at least 10 dB below the CP.

As already stated, it's always a tradeoff between linearity (low distortion) and high S/N ratio. Most of the times low distortion is paramount, but in some other cases, low noise might be more important.  This is also when you use the PA (not power amp, in an SA this is the preamplifier) – only in situations when the input signal is so weak that it doesn't come close to the CP even with PA turned on.

In case of an SA with only -5 dBm CP, the TOI will be correspondingly lower as well. And indeed, the TOI of the SSA3000X is only +10 dBm according to the data sheet. Siglent is obviously favoring high sensitivity over high level handling. But it is always better and easier when you have to use (additional) attenuators instead of preamplifiers. And again, there's no need for external attenuators, as long as the maximum allowable input power is not exceeded and, quite obviously, the maximum attenuation of the internal attenuators is sufficient for the task.

 

Offline Mick B

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2254 on: April 18, 2023, 02:40:39 am »
Re: SSA3021X Plus Upgrade Issue

Followed all the steps and got to sync && reboot. It rebooted, then came up with Siglent on the screen and just sits there. Can't telnet to 23 or 10101. Just gets connection closed. Did a port scan and 5024 & 5025 are open but SCPI doesn't respond back with anything including *IDN?. No output at all from 5024 & 5025.  Is it bricked? I got all the backups but can't seem to find a way back into OS on it to restore and start over.
Thoughts?

Any help would be awesome!
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2255 on: April 18, 2023, 02:42:25 am »
Re: SSA3021X Plus Upgrade Issue

Followed all the steps and got to sync && reboot. It rebooted, then came up with Siglent on the screen and just sits there. Can't telnet to 23 or 10101. Just gets connection closed. Did a port scan and 5024 & 5025 are open but SCPI doesn't respond back with anything including *IDN?. No output at all from 5024 & 5025.  Is it bricked? I got all the backups but can't seem to find a way back into OS on it to restore and start over.
Thoughts?

Any help would be awesome!
Cut the power and reboot......yeah I know they say not to do that with FW upgrades.....trust me on this one.
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Offline Mick B

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2256 on: April 18, 2023, 03:48:42 pm »
 Thank you, for your quick response. I did Power it off last night with and without the SA3000X+_telnet_11411.ADS\backup files USB drive plugged in. I left it unplugged all night and plugged it in this morning after 45min of the Siglent Logo I turned it back off. If it matters, when it boots on the TG and MODE lights come on and it beeps once, then the Logo is displayed then it goes out comes back on and then the TG and MODE light go out and the Logo stays. It powers off by holding the power.
It is currently unplugged and just staring at me almost feels like an episode of Twilight Zone I'm just waiting for it to start whispering my name. 
Please anymore advice, anyone I'm starting to get worried.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 10:21:28 pm by Mick B »
 

Offline flamin1q

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2257 on: April 21, 2023, 07:24:56 pm »
Hey All,

I have a problem and hopefully some of the smart guys here knows how to help me :)!
I've hacked/crossflashed my SSA3021-X Plus to an SVA-1032 which worked perfectly(Thanks to this forum!). However I wanted to do some EMC testing using EMCview. This requires a valid serial number in the spectrum analyzer.

To do this I used to telnet to : Ip of my siglent with port number 5024.
Here I wrote : SRLN <my-serial-number>
Then to check if worked I did: *IDN?
Which correctly showed my serial number. Then I rebooted my spectrum analyser and went to system info.

Now it displays the correct serial number. BUT
My model number is gone and all of my unlocks are gone  :'(
I then tried to generate a new license using: https://www.online-python.com/PX3v0J8nbs (which also did not work, first there where some compilation errors indents and stuff) and when it generated something it was 1 letter per license (which I dont know if that is correct)
Edit, asked chat GPT to fix it for me and now it works (the python script)

Hopefully someone can help me!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2023, 07:04:17 am by flamin1q »
 

Offline ima hogg

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2258 on: April 22, 2023, 08:28:19 am »
I've looked through the 91 pages [!] but didn't see an easy answer: If I don't want the VNA, can I just use the .py script for my SSA3021X Plus to get the options? 3.2G? I see it in the model numbers that I can uncomment, leading me to believe that I can.

I'm not necessarily saying that I can't follow 438 instructions that require baling wire and steel wool, any one of which could brick my $1500 device with a single mistyped character; I'm just saying maybe I don't need a VNA *that* bad....

Thanks!
 

Offline dshorthill

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2259 on: April 22, 2023, 04:31:13 pm »
Yes, all you need is the python script .. you use two keys : 3032 and ALL.. no risk involved in screwing up your SA.
I used this onlne python script. End result is 3032x Plus with all options..
https://www.online-python.com/PX3v0J8nbs

I also don’t need VNA capabilities at this point in time. 
As they say easy-peasy!!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2023, 04:41:17 pm by dshorthill »
 
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Offline xugmu

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2260 on: April 24, 2023, 10:53:34 am »
Hello,   can the SSA3000x plus demodulate  any 64qam signal, for example a dvb-t signal ?

If yes, could it  demodulate a single carrier (1K)?
 


Best   regards

 

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2261 on: April 24, 2023, 11:18:37 am »
No, it can't.
The data stream is much too high.
You need a propper TV field meter to be able to do that.
Let me know if you want some suggestions on capable TV field meters and/or other options.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2262 on: April 25, 2023, 12:06:20 am »
No, it can't.
The data stream is much too high.
You need a propper TV field meter to be able to do that.
Let me know if you want some suggestions on capable TV field meters and/or other options.
Really ? P16 of the datasheet suggests otherwise.
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_08_23/SSA3000X%20Plus_DataSheet_DS0703P_E04C.pdf
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Offline ima hogg

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2263 on: April 25, 2023, 01:30:05 am »
Do the 3021X+ or 3032X+ have any kind of directional coupling / RLB?

If not, how does "converting" a 3021X+ or 3032X+ to a 1032X get you true VNA capabilities?  Wouldn't that need directional coupling of some kind?

Asking for a newb friend....  ;)

Also, who wants to call up Siglent and order 100 of the SSA1032X faceplate stickers to resell here?
 

Online Bicurico

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2264 on: April 25, 2023, 03:03:05 am »
No, it can't.
The data stream is much too high.
You need a propper TV field meter to be able to do that.
Let me know if you want some suggestions on capable TV field meters and/or other options.
Really ? P16 of the datasheet suggests otherwise.
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_08_23/SSA3000X%20Plus_DataSheet_DS0703P_E04C.pdf

The problem is the Symbol Rate. A regular DVB-T Symbol Rate is much higher than the max. 2.5MSymbol/s the SSA-P can process.

But please correct me if I am wrong, as I don't have such a device to test myself.

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2265 on: April 25, 2023, 09:48:52 am »
Do the 3021X+ or 3032X+ have any kind of directional coupling / RLB?
Yes either as an combined option of the RLB HW and SW:
SSA3000-Refl(SW) & RB3X25(HW), for SSA3000X, SSA3000X Plus, SSA3000X-R series
Or just the HW: RB (1 MHz~2.5 GHz), N (M) -N (M) adaptor (2 pcs), for SSA3000X, SSA3000X Plus, SSA3000X-R series
https://siglentna.com/product/rb3x25/

Quote
If not, how does "converting" a 3021X+ or 3032X+ to a 1032X get you true VNA capabilities?  Wouldn't that need directional coupling of some kind?
Yep, they are preinstalled in the SSA3000X Plus and actively used in VNA mode in SVA1000X and SSA3000X-R models.
It's a tiny SMD coupler identified from Daves teardown pics by TurboTom:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sva1015x-1-5ghz-spectrum-vector-network-analyzer-(coming)/msg1655171/#msg1655171
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Offline ima hogg

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2266 on: April 26, 2023, 10:31:39 pm »
I plugged a USB mouse into my SSA3021X+ [from USB port] but got nothing. Is there something I need to enable? I waded through all of the menus but didn't see anything.
 

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2267 on: April 26, 2023, 10:59:43 pm »
I plugged a USB mouse into my SSA3021X+ [from USB port] but got nothing. Is there something I need to enable? I waded through all of the menus but didn't see anything.
In the System menu ensure the Touch screen is enabled.
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Offline ima hogg

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2268 on: April 26, 2023, 11:12:53 pm »
In the System menu ensure the Touch screen is enabled.

Thanks.  It was.  Turns out the SSA3021X+ is pretty picky about what devices it will use.  A wired USB mouse worked --- both directly thru the front USB connector and thru a USB hub thru the front connector.  One of my 2.4 GHz dongle-driven keyboard+touchpads worked great.  Exactly once.  Then it never worked again.  And the foldable 2.4 GHz dongle-driven keyboard+touchpad that I bought just to take with the SSA3021X+ never worked.  I guess it's not that big a deal, especially with the touch screen.  But it's frustrating.

...R
 

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2269 on: April 26, 2023, 11:17:53 pm »
In the System menu ensure the Touch screen is enabled.

Thanks.  It was.  Turns out the SSA3021X+ is pretty picky about what devices it will use.  A wired USB mouse worked --- both directly thru the front USB connector and thru a USB hub thru the front connector.  One of my 2.4 GHz dongle-driven keyboard+touchpads worked great.  Exactly once.  Then it never worked again.  And the foldable 2.4 GHz dongle-driven keyboard+touchpad that I bought just to take with the SSA3021X+ never worked.  I guess it's not that big a deal, especially with the touch screen.  But it's frustrating.

...R
You didn't say if you had tried it on another device and it worked on that ?
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Offline ima hogg

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2270 on: April 27, 2023, 12:03:11 am »
You didn't say if you had tried it on another device and it worked on that ?

Yep. Everything worked fine on a Windows machine.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2271 on: April 27, 2023, 01:01:50 am »
You didn't say if you had tried it on another device and it worked on that ?

Yep. Everything worked fine on a Windows machine.
Please state brand and exact model of any accessory that won’t work in any Siglent device for engineers to investigate.
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Offline ima hogg

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2272 on: April 27, 2023, 06:27:58 am »
Please state brand and exact model of any accessory that won’t work in any Siglent device for engineers to investigate.

This is the keyboard. Plugging the 2.4 GHz dongle into the front jack did not work.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09MZDHB3Q/

I'll conduct some more tests either tomorrow or over the weekend, but I'm running my feature demo timer down, so I need to be judicious.  I'm also happy to talk to someone directly [phone or email] if they have any questions.  I think the forum has direct messaging; feel free to use that.

...R
 

Offline ima hogg

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2273 on: April 29, 2023, 10:01:43 am »
When I plugged this keyboard in, I noticed that the UI paused as if it had detected the device.  So I suspected some other problem.

Sure enough, there was another dongle operating nearby that was interfering.  With just one of the dongles plugged in, this keyboard-trackpad worked fine.

But... when I place the cursor in a text field, as soon as I type any key, the text entry box closes without accepting my changes. For example, if I press <Frequency><Center>, move the cursor to the frequency text field, and start to type a frequency, I see the first number go into the text field, but the box then immediately closes without accepting the frequency.

Another user error, I'm sure, but any ideas?

Thanks!!

...R
 

Offline techidude

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Re: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
« Reply #2274 on: May 07, 2023, 11:32:09 pm »

As mentioned a few messages back, in Reply #2257 from flamin1q, I too had troubles getting the Python script in the online-python.com link to work.  I found a copy of the script in Reply #1968 from tomud, which is on page 79, and downloaded that.  It's the small link called Keygen_for_Siglent_Spectrum_Analyzers.py (1.43 kB - downloaded xxx times.)  I used that 'fresh' copy of the script to replace the corrupt one.

I replaced the zeros with my numbers and removed the appropriate # for my instrument type and all went well.

Many thanks to those who did the research and created this.
 


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