Siglent SDS3000X HD and upgraded SDS1000X HD

[tv84]

Hello,

in the video from Batterfly.com is at time 0:19
Memory Depth 100 Mpts/ch and 400 Mpts/ch.
I think ebastler rightly criticizes this.
The data sheet of the SDS7000X HD shows the standard: 500 Mpts/ch. Would you be satisfied if you bought an SDS7000X HD and only got 125 Mpts with four channels?

Best regards
egonotto

I understand, but would you be happier if it said just 500 MPts and you got the same 125 with 4 channels? 

It's a matter of convention. Both ways are not very clear. As such, the matter doesn't deserve so much fuss. O&O

[2N3055]

I'm not asking for an extra chapter in the video. At 00:19, simply don't write in big fat letters "400 MPts/ch", but write in equally fat letters "400 MPts". How would this make the 2-minute video any longer or more difficult to grasp?

It's not the end of the world and does not devalue the scope, but it is a factual error in that video. I don't get it why you can't simply say "Oops, indeed, they got that wrong", but have to come to Siglent's defense. It is not the first time. And it is a reflex which I just don't get in a user who otherwise makes many valuable and well-reasoned contributions.

No you are correct, they could have done that. But I didn't notice it, because it is not as important as you portray it to be.. It is one of those quick commercials that are there to make you notice there is a new product.
Not really important.
You are being annoyingly pedantic.
It is not the first time.

I do tend to be annoyed by that. Wasting our time with insignificant details like that.
Sorry, I'm not perfect.

Buhuhu, there is a missing comma on page 132 of user manual.. not very professional product...
Real company does not make such mistakes.

Real companies with real pedigree make a scope that has Zone button on front panel that does not work because scope was released without Zone triggering although it say it has it. Right there, on front panel, the button. Real companies release USB2.0 decoder and starts selling it just to be warned by customers that i doesn't work. And then company realizes that scope doesn't have necessary hardware on board. Nobody even tested if it works aparently. etc..etc..

Yeah but a single number stated in unclear manner in a blip 30 second video is a big problem you are capable to write about for hours.

Yeah, I'm the problem..

[2N3055]

Hello,

I still think the probability of such a "memory" error is very small, but the manual on page 63 says so:
"Under  the  full  Memory  Depth,  SDS3000X  HD  can  still  operate  at  full  speed  sampling  at
timebases <= 10 ms/div which provides high resolution captures for long time duration events."

If you use ch1 and ch3 with 200 MSa then you get only 2 GSa/s.

So there is definitely a mistake in the user manual. I just hope that the above sentence is correct. But as I said, it's a very small hope. A spark of hope.

Best regards
egonotto

Then that version of manual is wrong aparently.  It will have to be corrected.

Definitely 2x4GS/s ADC.
1 ADC per pair of channels 1-2 and 3-4.
Any single CH or CH1 and CH3 or CH2 and CH4 still 4GS/s. It drops to 2GS/s with any other combination.
Memory 400/200/100MPts per channel for 1/2/ 3 or 4 ch.
That is how it is.
Mind you, 100MPts is a lot.
Not to forget MSO also has 100Mpts and samples at 1GS/s..

[egonotto]

Hello,

You're right, there are bad mistakes and insignificant mistakes. The Mpts/ch error is insignificant here, because everyone here knows how it really is. Whether the SDS3000X HD 400 Mpts is an error and it is actually 2 * 400 Mpts is a significant error for me, because I have ordered an SDS3000X HD and would be very happy if it had 2 * 400 Mpts. Unfortunately, however, I think this is unlikely. But as our Secretary of State said, you can have a ham of hope.

Best regards
egonotto

[2N3055]

Hello,

You're right, there are bad mistakes and insignificant mistakes. The Mpts/ch error is insignificant here, because everyone here knows how it really is. Whether the SDS3000X HD 400 Mpts is an error and it is actually 2 * 400 Mpts is a significant error for me, because I have ordered an SDS3000X HD and would be very happy if it had 2 * 400 Mpts. Unfortunately, however, I think this is unlikely. But as our Secretary of State said, you can have a ham of hope.

Best regards
egonotto

No place for hope here, sorry. I gave you hard numbers. Those are correct.

[egonotto]

Hello,

what I don't know is what the situation is with the SDS3000X HD or SDS2000X HD with the total segmented memory. Some devices have more memory available with segmented memory. How much segmented memory is available on the SDS2000X HD?

Best regards
egonotto

[Martin72]

Mind you, 100MPts is a lot.

At least 100Mpt...
Our Lecroy, which is 5 times more expensive, has a maximum of 50Mpt (1Ch) and to date we have not experienced one situation in practice where this would have been too little.
I remember how freaked out we were a few years ago when we tested a scope with a total of 25Mpts for the first time...
Now 400Mpts and in the "worst case" 100....
It's a strange hype about memory capability at the moment.

[baldurn]

I was expecting that you would hack this thing and unlock it all for free?

The Scope costs just over €4000 and has the following options:

SDS3000HD-16LA 474,81€
SDS3000HD-FG  355,81€
SDS3000HD-PA 1010,31€
SDS3000HD-1553B 391,51€
SDS3000HD-CANFD 391,51€
SDS3000HD-FlexRay 391,51€
SDS3000HD-I2S  391,51€
SDS3000HD-Manch  391,51€
SDS3000HD-SENT 391,51€
SDS3000HD-ARINC 677,11€

Do you need them all?
If I look at the list now, then just 2 options would currently be interesting and useful for me.
And now, hand on heart, who feels the same way?

I would need a bandwidth upgrade, otherwise it is a downgrade from my current SDS2000HD 500 MHz. Also the logic analyzer and i2s. Anything else is not something I have ever used. But I like to see it in my options list anyway 

The thing is for hobby use you never know what you will be doing. Who knows, one day I might get my hands on something that uses one of those protocols and think it fun to try it out. I would neither want to pay a lot for some fun nor wait to get the feature.

For professional use it might be different and you might know exactly what purpose the scope needs to fulfill.

[2N3055]

Hello,

what I don't know is what the situation is with the SDS3000X HD or SDS2000X HD with the total segmented memory. Some devices have more memory available with segmented memory. How much segmented memory is available on the SDS2000X HD?

Best regards
egonotto

I don't know of top of my head. It would need to be measured. For SDS2000xHD there is data, but I don't have it at hand. I remember it was much more than than simply what is available to channels directly.
I will see if I can find it..

EDIT:

I tried now and on 2000xHD it is pretty much about 400Mpts total in segmented mode. 100MPts per channel. Like in normal mode.
I got it confused with 6000.  It has something like 750Mpts in segment mode with all 4 ch and 600MPts in normal mode.

[Martin72]

@baldurn:
I don't know when I might need it, so I want it for free instead of buying it.
Interesting point of view.

Who knows, one day I might get my hands on something that uses one of those protocols and think it fun to try it out. I would neither want to pay a lot for some fun nor wait to get the feature.

No problem on a siglent - Therefore you can use all options for a limited time and 30days should be more than enough to try it out.
And the good thing is:
Time only runs out the moment you use it.
Used today, one day gone.
Use it again in 2 months, one day gone.
Not like with Lecroy:
I can request trial licenses, they are also valid for 30 days - But the time runs out the moment you install them on the scope.

[baldurn]

@baldurn:
I don't know when I might need it, so I want it for free instead of buying it.
Interesting point of view.

That is not a fair take of what I said.

Who knows, one day I might get my hands on something that uses one of those protocols and think it fun to try it out. I would neither want to pay a lot for some fun nor wait to get the feature.

No problem on a siglent - Therefore you can use all options for a limited time and 30days should be more than enough to try it out.
And the good thing is:
Time only runs out the moment you use it.
Used today, one day gone.
Use it again in 2 months, one day gone.
Not like with Lecroy:
I can request trial licenses, they are also valid for 30 days - But the time runs out the moment you install them on the scope.

Yes that is indeed a nice policy from Siglent.

Still I won't be upgrading from my SDS2000X HD. It is not about getting something for free, but simply that it is not worth it. Would I take it if it was for free? Yes of course. Because then it might be worth it.

I suspect a friend here could unlock the SDS3000X HD the same as the SDS2000X HD. But I still won't bother or take the risk. All I see is the possibility of getting 1 GHz instead of 500 MHz. I like experimenting with HAM and building my own transceiver etc. Either I am going to accepting working with RF is something for my SSA3000X-R, which goes up to 7.5 GHZ. Or 1 GHz would not be enough and I had to go completely crazy. 1 GHz is also not enough for some of the digital busses that I am curious about. In my opinion the upgrade would not actually enable me to do more than what I have today.

If my SDS2000X HD got stolen, I would probably go the other way and get the SDS1000X HD and unlock it with the public keygen.

[KungFuJosh]

It's not a worthwhile upgrade if what you have meets your needs. Did you "improve" your 2K HD?

[baldurn]

It's not a worthwhile upgrade if what you have meets your needs. Did you "improve" your 2K HD?

Yes I had it unlocked. But I made sure I would also be happy with it if I failed to unlock it. I think it was(is) a fantastic scope. Now we also have the lower end models, which are also fantastic. Therefore there is less need for some of us to spend quite as much.

Being a pure hobby for me at this point, my needs are somewhat flexible. I have ideas for stuff that would require more than what my scope can do. But since I can't afford it, I will either not do these projects or find ways around it. I could afford 3k HD, provided I could unlock the bandwidth for free, but it just wouldn't be enough for what I have in mind.

[KungFuJosh]

Yeah, I hear that. My 2KX+ is more than I need, but I wouldn't be sad if I had a 3K HD.

[egonotto]

Hello,

I wonder if you can get close to a Picoscope 4262 with an SDS3000X HD with ERES and filter?

Best regards
egonotto

You can't.  You can get better than most 12 bit scopes, but you cannot cheat physics and math..
Both Performa and myself published some measurements before...

EDIT:

on 1ms/div:
2000xHD with ERES3 I can get 20uV Stdev. noise floor
6000 H12 with ERES 4 I can get 25uV Stdev.

Hello,
I try with Rigol DHO1074. It is not that far away.

Best regards
egonotto

[Performa01]

There are slightly different architectures:

1) Each ADC has its own dedicated sample memory. There is usually one ADC per channel pair, hence we get two ADCs and twice the memory on 4 channel instruments. This concept has been used on SDS1000X, SDS1000X-E, SDS2000X (Plus, HD), SDS2000X-E and SDS5000X.

2) There are multiple ADCs, yet just a single shared memory for all channels. Examples for this are SDS3000X HD (2 ADCs, 400 Mpts total) and SDS6000A / SDS6204 H12 Pro (4 ADCs, 500 Mpts total).

3) As 2), but the sample max. rate is shared between all channels as well, as we can see in the new SDS800/1000X HD (2 ADCs, 50/100 Mpts total, 2 GSa/s total).


The maximum memory (= max. record length) can be a somewhat confusing specification, because it only really makes sense together with the specification of the max. sample rate.

In most cases, we are very aware of the bandwidth of our scope, and what we really want to know is how long can we capture at full sample rate, in other words: how slow a time base we can choose without losing any detail.

If we have a DSO with a maximum of just 100 MSa/s (which limits the real-time bandwidth to <40 MHz), then 1 Mpts of memory allows us to capture as slow as 1 ms/div (for a total record length of 10 ms) while still keeping the initial (maximum) sample rate.

On a DSO with max. 4 GSa/s, we need 40 Mpts of memory for the same capture length – but now >1 GHz real-time bandwidth would be possible.

We could say that e.g. in dual-channel mode, the 250 Mpts on a 2 GHz SDS6204 are actually much less deep a memory than the 200 Mpts we can get on the SDS2000X (Plus or HD). Because the latter allows us to capture a 100 ms long record at 10 ms/div and full sample rate of 2 GSa/s, whereas the SDS6000 limits us to just 50 ms record length at 5 ms/div and 5 GSa/s.

what I don't know is what the situation is with the SDS3000X HD or SDS2000X HD with the total segmented memory. Some devices have more memory available with segmented memory. How much segmented memory is available on the SDS2000X HD?

On the SDS2000X HD, there is no difference between max. record length and max. segmented memory.

Only the SDS1000X-E with its comparably short max. record length (14 Mpts per ADC) had significantly more segmented memory (up to 56 Mpts per ADC). Other instruments might have slightly more, such as the SDS824X HD, which can use up to 118 Mpts segmented memory, even though the max. record length is limited to 100 Mpts.

EDIT: Shared memory and sample rate models added.

[tv84]

I could afford 3k HD, provided I could unlock the bandwidth for free, but it just wouldn't be enough for what I have in mind.

   Usually people that can afford have a more pragmatic view. Those that cannot afford are the ones that are always trying to upgrade the model just because. Human nature... 

[egonotto]

Hello,

Thanks Performa01 for the explanations.
What I don't understand is the following: Doesn't Siglent use double buffers in run mode? If so, why is this extra memory not used in segmented mode?

Best regards
egonotto

[hpw]

on 1ms/div:
2000xHD with ERES3 I can get 20uV Stdev. noise floor
6000 H12 with ERES 4 I can get 25uV Stdev.

A call for Bin-Files as new Siglent HD-Models:

I am very interested to get a BIN file of full possible sample size as may 100M or 200M or even more as like to see the 1/f noise or spurs.

As from all new 800 HD, 1000 HD, 2000 HD, 6000 HD & 7000A HD models

May with the following settings:

- Input shorted as as for a) 50E or b) 1M

- May the ERES to consider, currently to look at full BW of the DSO

- Lowest Y division as 1mV or 500uV

- As on my SDS2k + (10 bits), requires to set the time divisions may in the 2..5ms range,
  anyway the time division icon will display current sample size

- save it as BIN file and zip it please

and lets attached.... 

Hp

[2N3055]

on 1ms/div:
2000xHD with ERES3 I can get 20uV Stdev. noise floor
6000 H12 with ERES 4 I can get 25uV Stdev.

A call for Bin-Files as new Siglent HD-Models:

I am very interested to get a BIN file of full possible sample size as may 100M or 200M or even more as like to see the 1/f noise or spurs.

As from all new 800 HD, 1000 HD, 2000 HD, 6000 HD & 7000A HD models

May with the following settings:

- Input shorted as as for a) 50E or b) 1M

- May the ERES to consider, currently to look at full BW of the DSO

- Lowest Y division as 1mV or 500uV

- As on my SDS2k + (10 bits), requires to set the time divisions may in the 2..5ms range,
  anyway the time division icon will display current sample size

- save it as BIN file and zip it please

and lets attached.... 

Hp

I would suggest you create separate topic on this. This one is already too convoluted.

Also this forum has restrictions to attachment sizes.
Make a new topic on this and provide link to some Google drive or something to dump data and I migh help a bit with some data when time permits....

[Martin72]

I think I found another "error" on the Batronix site regarding the new siglent scopes.
The SAG1021I module is described as a 25Mhz generator, the licenses for the 800X HD and 1000X HD are also described as 25Mhz generators in conjunction with the corresponding license.
The 3000X HD, however, is described as 50Mhz, despite the same hardware.

[tautech]

I think I found another "error" on the Batronix site regarding the new siglent scopes.
The SAG1021I module is described as a 25Mhz generator, the 800X HD and 1000X HD are also described as 25Mhz generators in conjunction with the corresponding license.
The 3000X HD, however, is described as 50Mhz, despite the same hardware.

Spotted that too on first look at 3000X HD info.
Cool I thought if SAG1021I can be convinced to run that fast as it creates interest what can be done via improvements.....

[Martin72]

Wait a minute...

https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/sag1021i/

....the frequency depends on the frequency defined by the oscilloscope FG option.

Aha...
So the FG license for the 3000X HD "allows" 50Mhz instead of 25Mhz.
No error from batronix, except the description of the SAG1021i where the hint is missing.

[2N3055]

Wait a minute...

https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/sag1021i/

....the frequency depends on the frequency defined by the oscilloscope FG option.

Aha...

This is what I wanted to say..
On SDS7000A that module (built in but same hardware) is also specified to 50MHz.
But and it is possible, with 125MS/s sample rate.
All other specifications are same.

So 50 MHz sine is right. And useful for Bode plots.

[Martin72]

Yep, it´s an error in the description of the SAG module on the batronix site.