Siglent SDS1000X HD 12bit DSO's

[KungFuJosh]

I've never paid sticker for a car and I just can't do it.

100%. It's impossible. Even if somebody handed me a check for $50,000,000, I'd still haggle a better price on a car the next day. 🤣

[Antonio90]

I like Mazda cars. The gasoline atmosferic ones. The price of the basic trims is (or was) pretty reasonable, and they work. They also usually have all the safety-related stuff.
Never understood luxury, highest trims or very expensive cars, if I have money to burn I try to put it into useful stuff.
Better tools, books, good test equipment, house reforms, etc. Luxury is quickly assimilated as a baseline lifestyle, and it doesn't really add anything.

And, going back to scope talk, Will the SDS2000X Plus get 4 math channels? Or are there processing power constraints?
does the SDS1000X HD have a different, more powerful processor or FPGA?
Also, I guess this is way too soon, but will it be "secured" like the 2000X Plus, or rather as the 2000X HD?

[2N3055]

I like Mazda cars. The gasoline atmosferic ones. The price of the basic trims is (or was) pretty reasonable, and they work. They also usually have all the safety-related stuff.
Never understood luxury, highest trims or very expensive cars, if I have money to burn I try to put it into useful stuff.
Better tools, books, good test equipment, house reforms, etc. Luxury is quickly assimilated as a baseline lifestyle, and it doesn't really add anything.

And, going back to scope talk, Will the SDS2000X Plus get 4 math channels? Or are there processing power constraints?
does the SDS1000X HD have a different, more powerful processor or FPGA?
Also, I guess this is way too soon, but will it be "secured" like the 2000X Plus, or rather as the 2000X HD?

SDS1000X HD is related to SDS2000X HD. Apart from color and label stating model they are visually identical.
They are different (newer) design from SDS2000X+.
What exactly will be inside production model I don't know yet.
Until it is officially released it is never sure.

As for security model, I have no idea.

[tautech]

Playing with Zoom mode which offers both horizontal and vertical zoom.

[skander36]

Playing with Zoom mode which offers both horizontal and vertical zoom.

Touch&zoom(not pinch&zoom) or from buttons (or both)?
By touch zoom I mean draw a rectangle and touch for zoom in.

[BillyO]

They better hurry.  I have the money now but it's burning a hole in my pocket, and I have the attention span of an addled gnat.

Hope they offer some other color than black/charcoal grey.  It will throw my whole lab aesthetic off! 

[Martin72]

There has never been a black model on the western market and that's all I'm going to say about that.

[tautech]

Playing with Zoom mode which offers both horizontal and vertical zoom.

Touch&zoom(not pinch&zoom) or from buttons (or both)?

Zoom is activated pressing the timebase control.

By touch zoom I mean draw a rectangle and touch for zoom in.

The size of the zoom window box is set with horizontal and vertical controls and the zoom window box can be moved with touch and we can also position where the waveform in the box in both the unzoomed or zoomed window with touch.

Default zoom is only horizontal until we select the zoomed window and increase sensitivity.

[ebastler]

Digital mode.
Pre-release scope HW and SW ! SW enhancements requested since last beta FW release.
Currently available SLA1016 LA module with latest FW.
Just half of the 16 channels available displayed. Each channel can be individually toggled ON or OFF or as a group of 8.

Needed to check something now we have a later version FW....
And now we have trace color tabs that match with the LA pod flying leads.....something slowly migrating to all models as resources allow.

Hi Rob, I have read up a bit on the capabilities and limitations of the external LA option. Best I could find was a rather old summary by Performa01, relating to the SDS1000X-E: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2007983/#msg2007983

Are the limitations the same for the 1000X HD?
(a) No mixed digital/analog pattern trigger -- this is probably a fundamental limitation of the external LA?
(b) No Zoom in Run mode with the digital channels -- this seems like a software limitation that has hopefully been overcome, maybe even for the 1000X-E in the meantime?

Thanks!

[tautech]

Digital mode.
Pre-release scope HW and SW ! SW enhancements requested since last beta FW release.
Currently available SLA1016 LA module with latest FW.
Just half of the 16 channels available displayed. Each channel can be individually toggled ON or OFF or as a group of 8.

Needed to check something now we have a later version FW....
And now we have trace color tabs that match with the LA pod flying leads.....something slowly migrating to all models as resources allow.

Hi Rob, I have read up a bit on the capabilities and limitations of the external LA option. Best I could find was a rather old summary by Performa01, relating to the SDS1000X-E: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2007983/#msg2007983

Well I suspect things have changed some since 2018 where IIRC there have been 2 or more FW updates to the external SLA1016 LA module

Are the limitations the same for the 1000X HD?
(a) No mixed digital/analog pattern trigger -- this is probably a fundamental limitation of the external LA?

Unsure, this need be checked as to where the triggering is actually happening where I would suspect inside the scope.

(b) No Zoom in Run mode with the digital channels -- this seems like a software limitation that has hopefully been overcome, maybe even for the 1000X-E in the meantime?

Why would we need a zoom mode for digital channels when they are a reconstruction of a pulse that meets a user set threshold. What we see on the display bears little resemblance to the digital waveform.
Much like a clock waveform, it matters little what it looks like providing it meets the required thresholds.

Lemme think about running some tests in the next few days....although it's the weekend I do have a bit on.

[ebastler]

Why would we need a zoom mode for digital channels when they are a reconstruction of a pulse that meets a user set threshold. What we see on the display bears little resemblance to the digital waveform.
Much like a clock waveform, it matters little what it looks like providing it meets the required thresholds.

Zooming in on digital signals would mainly be used in connection with decoding, I expect, to make the decoded data readable when capturing longer messages.

Lemme think about running some tests in the next few days....although it's the weekend I do have a bit on.

Thank you! No rush -- as the scope is not released yet, there is no immediate purchasing decision to be made. (Unfortunately... )

[ebastler]

Tought about the "Zoom on digital data" limitation a bit more, after re-reading Performa01's summary (below). Since Zoom is available once the scope is stopped, maybe this is not a major limitation:

In Run mode -- assuming that messages are sent repeatedly -- I could always simply "zoom in" by switching to a faster time base and moving around via the horizontal delay, right? The only thing one loses is the visual orientation where one is currently looking within a longer message; but reading the decoded data should not be a problem.

Or am I missing something there?

Furthermore, both History and Zoom don't work when digital channels are enabled. Since most people want the MSO for decoding serial buses nowadays, this means you cannot decode long messages, because the decoder line at the bottom of the screen will become unreadable due to the lack of space. Using analog channels, you can easily deal with that by just entering zoom mode and take a closer look at the part of the message you're interested in. As it is now, when using digital channels you're almost limited to the capabilities of a Rigol 1000Z which only decodes the screen buffer anyway

The limitation described above only applies in run mode though. You can still capture a long message and then zoom in and navigate through the message while in stop mode. Also the list view works during Run even for very long messages, but that's rather pointless as you cannot closely examine the corresponding waveform – you might just as well use an LA instead.

[tautech]

Why would we need a zoom mode for digital channels when they are a reconstruction of a pulse that meets a user set threshold. What we see on the display bears little resemblance to the digital waveform.
Much like a clock waveform, it matters little what it looks like providing it meets the required thresholds.

Zooming in on digital signals would mainly be used in connection with decoding, I expect, to make the decoded data readable when capturing longer messages.

Oh, a faster timebase setting is no problem, you can set to whatever you like.
By Zoom, I was thinking a split screen zoom. 

[Performa01]

In Run mode -- assuming that messages are sent repeatedly -- I could always simply "zoom in" by switching to a faster time base and moving around via the horizontal delay, right? The only thing one loses is the visual orientation where one is currently looking within a longer message; but reading the decoded data should not be a problem.

Or am I missing something there?

Yes, you are. What you describe will not work for long messages that use protocols with certain start/stop conditions. If you have e.g. a long I2C message and you shorten the acquisition so that you only see a part of it - and the start condition is truncated - then the decoders won't work.
It will not be a problem for UART, as long as the acquired record includes at least one full character.

In general, it is not so much about zooming into a digital signal, which is indeed just a far cry from the real signal shape, but you might want to inspect some corresponding analog waveform sometimes. With digital channels activated when using the SLA1016, zoom doesn't work at all, neither for analog nor digital channels. And then there's the problem that you can read the messages only in the list window, but not directly below the signal.

As I've stated in some old posting, the SLA1016 is a fully independent acquisition machine with its own trigger mechanism, that is somehow synced to the DSO acquisition. Therefore I don't expect anything could have changed by now. LeCroy happened to have a similar soultion somewhere in the past, and it received equally little love by the users...

[rf-loop]

Split window zoom is not possible when digital inputs are on.
Digital channels can not use for next triggers: Pattern (least now) and then of course not for Runt, Slope, Video, Window because signals have only two states.
Digital channels can use for Edge, Pulse, Interval, Dropout and Serial.
Analog and Digital serial decoding: Mixed analog and digital decoding is not supported. (signals must be from only digital or only analog, not mixed)

Sad that there is (as usually in most of these kind of instruments) also only two states 1 and 0. But undefined state is missing because we can set only one threshold level. or other parameters.  So digital channels can not use for real analysis. Real circuit may decode or other way behave different than this kind of simplified "LA" displays.

[ebastler]

What you describe will not work for long messages that use protocols with certain start/stop conditions. If you have e.g. a long I2C message and you shorten the acquisition so that you only see a part of it - and the start condition is truncated - then the decoders won't work.

Just coming back from a little bike ride, and that thought had occurred to me somewhere along the way. Thanks for confirming my suspicion -- that is disappointing indeed. Essentially means that scopes with the SLA1016 don't perform any better (in Run mode) than Rigols's DS1054Z, which decodes data from the screen only.

But you can still use Zoom mode (and get proper decoding) when the scope is in Stop mode, if I understood your 2018 post correctly, right? That would probably cover most use cases.

As I've stated in some old posting, the SLA1016 is a fully independent acquisition machine with its own trigger mechanism, that is somehow synced to the DSO acquisition. Therefore I don't expect anything could have changed by now. LeCroy happened to have a similar soultion somewhere in the past, and it received equally little love by the users...

As stated a few posts ago, I can understand that there will be limitations to the triggering capability which are probably unavoidable. But Zoom and Decode happen entirely within the scope, and should work no matter where the data were acquired? So maybe the SLA1016 needs a little more love from Siglent's software developers...

[Performa01]

As stated a few posts ago, I can understand that there will be limitations to the triggering capability which are probably unavoidable. But Zoom and Decode happen entirely within the scope, and should work no matter where the data were acquired? So maybe the SLA1016 needs a little more love from Siglent's software developers...

It might appear that way at a first glance and in theory, but for the real product there are some more considerations.

Since the SLA1016 is an autonomous acquisition unit, it is utilized pretty much like a good USB scope (e.g. Picoscope): only the already decimated screen data are transferred from the external device to the host (which is the DSO in this case). So there is just no data to further zoom in.

Yes, of course we could have a firmware change to always transfer the full data buffer content, which could be up to 28 MB. I don't know what the maximum transfer capacity of that "S-Bus" is, but if it's anything like USB2, then we would only get one single frame per second as the worst case.

[ebastler]

Since the SLA1016 is an autonomous acquisition unit, it is utilized pretty much like a good USB scope (e.g. Picoscope): only the already decimated screen data are transferred from the external device to the host (which is the DSO in this case). So there is just no data to further zoom in.

That makes sense, thank you!

So maybe the SDS1000X HD will not be the right scope for me after all. I certainly spend more time on digital than analog systems and was looking forward to upgrading to MSO capability. (But a less noisy front end than in my current DS1054Z would be nice too...) Ah, decisions... 

[2N3055]

Since the SLA1016 is an autonomous acquisition unit, it is utilized pretty much like a good USB scope (e.g. Picoscope): only the already decimated screen data are transferred from the external device to the host (which is the DSO in this case). So there is just no data to further zoom in.

That makes sense, thank you!

So maybe the SDS1000X HD will not be the right scope for me after all. I certainly spend more time on digital than analog systems and was looking forward to upgrading to MSO capability. (But a less noisy front end than in my current DS1054Z would be nice too...) Ah, decisions... 

If that is so, then from Siglent SDS2000X Plus would be a good match for you. It is 8 bit but low noise and 500uV/div real sensitivity on analog and full (and fast) implementation of MSO.

[Martin72]

Consent.
Buy (100Mhz), "improve" (500Mhz, MSO, etc) and should the day come when the scope is no longer sufficient, there should already have been one or two successors.

[ebastler]

Thank you both. Yes, the SDS2104X plus is on my "shortlist", and is leading the pack there. (The SDS1000X HD and Rigol's MSO5074 and DHO914S are the other contenders.)

Unfortunately it is the most expensive one on the list too -- ah well, I guess market pricing kind of works...

[Warhawk]

ebastler, I am not sure if this helps but I was in the same situation two weeks ago. I decided for the SDS2000X+. The fact that LeCroy sells it with their logo gives me confidence that it is not bad. I originally thought that I would wait for SDS1000X but the logic analyzer limitations changed my mind. I did not want to make compromises on that.
I too considered the DHO914S because of the bode plot but it is too small for my eyesight. Additionally, there are standard #justrigolthings . The 800 series is financially attractive but 1Mpts/ch is too low.

tl;dr; I have SDS2104x+ on my desk und ich bin ein sehr zufriedener Bastler. . 

I am going for the hack and want to make the logic analyzer pod myself using the old HP cable. I have extras. One can be yours.

[KungFuJosh]

I am going for the hack and want to make the logic analyzer pod myself using the old HP cable. I have extras. One can be yours.

Alternatively, there is a low cost DIY version of the probe here as well: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/

I had the mediocre version of that from fleabay, and it worked fine for all the batronix demo board stuff. I wound up having the correct boards made, and I'll eventually make the better version true to the project.

[Warhawk]

I am going for the hack and want to make the logic analyzer pod myself using the old HP cable. I have extras. One can be yours.

Alternatively, there is a low cost DIY version of the probe here as well: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/

I had the mediocre version of that from fleabay, and it worked fine for all the batronix demo board stuff. I wound up having the correct boards made, and I'll eventually make the better version true to the project.

I am aware of the thread. Thank you. This is the place where I somewhere found the version for the HP logic cables.

[ebastler]

Many thanks, Warhawk and KungFuJosh!

Regarding the LA probe, Siglent are currently enticing new buyers of the SDS2000X plus with that bundle offer... Being "legal" on pretty much all options (except for higher bandwidth) and getting the very nice LA probe is tempting. I would prefer if they had a special offer on the price of the base unit instead -- but from a marketing perspective I can see that they don't want to let that price degrade if they can avoid it.