SDS5034X vs SDS2104X Plus

[Sueco]

Hi,

After 20 years as a professional designer I would like to finally have a "proper" oscilloscope, with LA and AWG. I work mostly designing industrial controllers and power inverters, so entry level scopes have been enough, even though with no few struggles. At the moment I use a Rigol DS1054z which is by far the best I ever had, so you can imagine that almost anything will be an improvement for me. The MSO5074 has excellent value for money, given that's now on offer here at 750€, however its low maximum bandwidth and other caveats have made me steer into either the SDS5034X or SDS2104X Plus. I know the fancy stuff is going towards 12bits, however if I really require that degree of dynamic range I guess I'd get something like a DHO800 or DHO900 in the future.

The question is that the SDS5034X is more than twice the price of the SDS2104X, and comparing both fully upgraded the differences aren't so big, since the former might be able to reach a BW of over 750MHz and the latter might get stuck on 500MHz if I got my info right, however the sample rate is noticeable higher in the SDS5034X and I guess the overall build quality will also be better. So my question is, and I'm aware I'm asking a subjective question expecting an objective answer, is the SDS5034X worth it the money compared to the SDS2104X Plus?

To try to have some objective criteria, I'd consider worth the investment if it outperforms the newer model in every or most specs, like bandwidth, sample rate with all channels on, LA sample rate, memory depth, etc... Otherwise I'd stick with the cheaper alternative. I've checked most of the specs and it doesn't look like the SDS5034X is a clear winner, however also taking into account the general feel, responsiveness and firmware stability, then maybe it's worth its price.

If somebody has used them both or has used either and could help me make my mind would be great; sometimes experience, however subjective it might be, teaches more than anything else.

Thanks and best regards

[tautech]

Welcome to the forum.

General notes:
5000X are of a 1 GHz design whereas 2000X Plus is a 500 MHz design
5000X offer all the same features as 2000X Plus but with these added features:
Active probe support.
5 GSa/s vs 2 GSa/s.
Deeper memory with additional memory management features.
Individual channel vertical controls.

SDS5104X was my main DSO for some years. Is it a better choice for your needs, only you can decide.
Good luck with your choice.

[Sueco]

Welcome to the forum.

General notes:
5000X are of a 1 GHz design whereas 2000X Plus is a 500 MHz design
5000X offer all the same features as 2000X Plus but with these added features:
Active probe support.
5 GSa/s vs 2 GSa/s.
Deeper memory with additional memory management features.
Individual channel vertical controls.

SDS5104X was my main DSO for some years. Is it a better choice for your needs, only you can decide.
Good luck with your choice.

Many thanks for your insights, I was aware of most, but not all, of these advantages, in particular I didn't notice the deeper and better memory. The higher sample rate might come in hand when probing several channels, I don't know if I'll ever require active probes, but it's certainly better to have that option open. The SDS5034X will never reach the full 1 GHz even with full upgrades, according to what I've found, however I think it will outperform the 500 MHz of the SDS2104X fully updgraded, I guess it's luck of the draw how high it will go, no assurances given when pushing a device beyond the manufacturer's specs. I'm leaning more on the 5000X now, in the end I hope I'll use it for many years so it might very well be worth the investment.

Thank again and best regards!

[tautech]

~950 MHz is the limit with earlier 5kX mainboard designs however testing such requires better equipment than most have.
I have not seen recent reports if the early PCB's are still being used so maybe it is now possible to get to 1 GHz with latest 350 MHz models.

Both models use 2 ADC's which for 5kX with 5 GSa/s will support full BW whereas 2kX Plus gets channel BW limits of 350 MHz applied when 3 channels are active. < Little things that can matter to some.

[Martin72]

The SDS5000X was the first touchscreen scope from siglent, who knows how long it will be supported.
Currently it is still the "biggest" scope from the "X" series, because of the 5GSa/s and the most memory.
Unfortunately, there is no crystal ball that can predict whether the SDS3000X HD will be available on the western market.
If that were certain, I would first buy the inexpensive SDS2104X and wait for the 3000X HD.
This would offer 12 bit, 400Mpts maximum memory and still 4GSa/s and also up to 1Ghz bandwidth.
I would add to the points mentioned by tautech compared to the SDS2104X:
- Average and Eres implemented on the hardware side.
What I consider a big advantage, you do not "sacrifice" a math channel for it ( and they are very scarce with 2 channels (in both models).
But there would be another alternative, if you don't need more than 500Mhz.
The model which I have, a SDS2104X HD.
12 bit, 500Mhz max, 200Mpts, Eres and Average also on the hardware side, will soon have 4 math channels, has digital filters as math function, looks fancier....
The 2104X HD costs about the same as the 5034X.
I was faced with a choice last year when the 2104X HD came out and decided to go with the newer 12 bit scope.
Before that I had the SDS2104X, which I still think is the best scope in the price range and beyond.

[tv84]

Listen to Martin!

[Sueco]

I agree 100% with both of you. There's some uncertainty on what BW will you get when upgrading a SDS5034X (there's not a lot in info about this I've been able to find), on the other side being unable to reliably measure it means, to some extent, that your scope is surpassing your BW needs, with the caveat of measurement unreliability of course. However I anticipate that anything that can be guaranteed by design to operate properly over 750 to 868 (I'm thinking ISM here) will very much fulfill my present and future needs, and I guess most embedded industrial applications engineers would agree.

As for the 2000X HD, I've been considering it and was in fact my initial choice, however it seems that Siglent's Lic V2 algorithm used by the 2000X HD, and I guess also in all likelyhood the 3000X HD, is not fully "documented" as far as I know, making them less appealing, at least for me. 8 bits isn't ideal, sometimes when measuring 600V voltage swings, a ENOB of 8bits means an error of several volts in range, hence IGBT saturation can't be measured accurately along with the full turn on and off, nonetheless, as a backup, it's not unthinkable to get a Rigol HDO800 or 900 for these specific measurements.

Certainly I'd rather get a model with an expected support as far down in the future as possible, and playing safe going for a cheaper scope waiting for newer models to be available has crossed my mind, but in the end that leads to an endless loop, since there are always newer, better scopes on the horizon. Maybe the Lic V2 algorithm has already been figured out unbeknownst to me, if that was the case I can assure you that my choice would be between a 2000X HD and a 5000X and the 2000X plus would be out of the equation.

[Martin72]

What are your concerns about Lic V2 ?
That it is not hackable ?
You don't have to worry about that...

[tv84]

There's some uncertainty on what BW will you get when upgrading a SDS5034X

No uncertainty there. I've never seen one that wasn't upgradeable to 1GHz.

my choice would be between a 2000X HD and a 5000X and the 2000X plus would be out of the equation.

Then choose a 2kX HD and live happily ever after.

PS: My last nail for the coffin: I've seen SDS5000X with Lic V2. 

[Sueco]

What are your concerns about Lic V2 ?
That it is not hackable ?
You don't have to worry about that...

I know every scope from Rigol or Siglent has been eventualy broken, my concern is more about the timeframe than the likelyhood.

Then choose a 2kX HD and live happily ever after.

PS: Game changer: I've seen SDS5000X with Lic V2. 

That's certainly troubling. Maybe there's something going on in the backstage regarding Lic V2 that I'm unware of? In all truth I've never found it legitimate to limit the hardware that is already there, it might be commercially justified but is something I've never done and will never do. Not my intention to start a debate here, just stating my opinion. In the end if the manufacturing costs are the same, sell it with its full capabilities and you'll end up selling a lot more units. Of course they have their calculations on how many licenses they can sell and it will add up to more than the market share increase they might get by just giving all functionalities for free.

[tautech]

That's certainly troubling. Maybe there's something going on in the backstage regarding Lic V2 that I'm unware of? In all truth I've never found it legitimate to limit the hardware that is already there, it might be commercially justified but is something I've never done and will never do. Not my intention to start a debate here, just stating my opinion. In the end if the manufacturing costs are the same, sell it with its full capabilities and you'll end up selling a lot more units. Of course they have their calculations on how many licenses they can sell and it will add up to more than the market share increase they might get by just giving all functionalities for free.

V2 licensing only made hacking harder as scripts to do it are as yet not available online.

Model pricing is set to compete with competition and still today SDS5104X is best bang for buck out there as little has changed since Dave did his 1 GHz DSO shootout other than SDS5000X models now have additional features added in later FW.
One always needs to look deep into datasheets as to find full capabilities and which functionality is free and not optional.

[Martin72]

I know every scope from Rigol or Siglent has been eventualy broken, my concern is more about the timeframe than the likelyhood.

Hm ?
What does this have to do with the V2 license ?
Or do you mean in general the loss of warranty because of the hacking ?
I know a case here in the forum, where Siglent had nevertheless made a repair/replacement under warranty, although the scope was hacked - Because the defect was not caused by the hacking.
Whether they will always see it that way, of course, one does not know.
Anyone who hacks a scope always has a risk - but the hack does not cause the scope to become defective.
And as far as the defect in general is concerned:
In my experience, something happens either in the first few weeks or after the warranty has expired...
However, this applies to everything and every brand.

[Sueco]

I have no warranty concerns, I don't even expect an early failure, most of the scopes when have failed was a PSU issue that was eventually easy to sort out by myself. The thing is that as far as I know Lic V2 hasn't been broken. It will be broken no doubt, but will that be next week, or will we have to wait months?

[tautech]

I have no warranty concerns, I don't even expect an early failure, most of the scopes when have failed was a PSU issue that was eventually easy to sort out by myself. The thing is that as far as I know Lic V2 hasn't been broken. It will be broken no doubt, but will that be next week, or will we have to wait months?

Here you are incorrect. Read a previous reply and from tv84 also.

[Martin72]

I´ll make it clearer..
Lic V2 has already been hacked, so no worries.
However, you won't find any further information about this, for various (good) reasons.
If you own a device, however, you can be helped.

[Sueco]

OK, I'll have to re-evaluate and maybe choose between an SDS2000X HD (which was my original choice) or an SDS5000X. The 5000X looks like a more professional piece of equipment, however 12bits scopes seem to be trending and for power analysis applications the extra DC accuracy is very much welcome. Having hardware ERES with 12bit ADCs seems like overkill, but who am I to complain, and I don't expect to decode any ARINC buses anytime soon which I think is (for now) only available on the 5000X series firmware, so it seems you're all quite right and a 2000X HD should be the choice balancing all the pros of it against the 5000X

[Martin72]

Hi,

ARINC will be avaible on the HD with the next firmware update.
Same with the four mathchannels.

The 5000X looks like a more professional piece of equipment

Interesting. 

In my opinion, there are three advantages the 5000X have against the 2000X HD.
More max. Samplerate.
More max. Bandwith
Extended probe interface.
If 500Mhz max is enough for you, go for the HD.
Then the samplerate won´t matter because of the lower bandwith.
Extended probe interface is only a benefit when you plan to buy a suitable probe.

[tautech]

OK, I'll have to re-evaluate and maybe choose between an SDS2000X HD (which was my original choice) or an SDS5000X. The 5000X looks like a more professional piece of equipment,.....

Yes and no.
If you need active probe support sure however the newer HD platform is professional grade too if the lesser BW can meet requirements.

One thing where SDS2000X HD excels, is very low fan noise.

[KungFuJosh]

One thing where SDS2000X HD excels, is very low fan noise.

I really want to tease you about listing that as a benefit...but I've been listening to the fan on my 3055 for the last few days, all day...so yeah, that's pretty cool. 😉

[tautech]

One thing where SDS2000X HD excels, is very low fan noise.

I really want to tease you about listing that as a benefit...but I've been listening to the fan on my 3055 for the last few days, all day...so yeah, that's pretty cool. 😉

Wait until your first impression of SDS6000A boot  then it quietens much to be similar to other Siglent DSO's where SDS2000X HD is still king for low fan noise.

[Martin72]

very low fan noise.

In fact it´s dead..
Joke aside, it´s awesome quiet, only to hear while booting.

[Sueco]

The thing is, I'd like to have 1GHz BW, but I don't truly require 1GHz BW, I guess 500MHz will be more than enough since the highest frequency circuit I've ever designed is an ISM 433MHz RF transmitter, and as such a 1GHz spectrum analyzer was enough to test it. I don't plan to use active probes, I use HV differential probes but they don't require an active probe interface, but having that option is a plus, of course. Having very good DC accuracy is very important for power applications, during efficiency analysis a 2% deviation in both current and voltage can throw your measurement out of the window in some cases. So the 5000X has all that I wish to have and the 2000X HD all that I need to have. Maybe the 3000X will have both, and that's why waiting was one if your suggestions? However the pricetag might be an issue there, since I expect them to be significantly more expensive than the 2000X HD which are already slightly over my alloted budget...

[tautech]

Yep this is a real thing when next models up might cost more than a $1300 1.5 GHz SSA3015X Plus analyzer.
Spend less and have both ?
Only you can make these choices.

[2N3055]

Interesting fact is that SDS2000X HD has large (much larger that other scopes) offset range. Useful with power electronics work.
500Mhz is more than enough for general purpose scope, especially for power electronics..

[Performa01]

The main advantages of the SDS5000X have been mentioned (sample rate, memory, probe interface, max. bandwidth), but we should also not forget the downsides, namely the limited resources, so for instance we get no filter functions, no memory traces and only two math channels.

As has been indicated, hacking the SDS5034X results in an SDS5104X only on paper; in reality it has a different HW and can never reach 1 GHz. As far as I remember, practical bandwidths were around 850 MHz.

The SDS2000X Plus/HD series has a max bandwidth of nominal 500 MHz (with up to two channels), which is actually measured as ~600 MHz. On my specimen of the SDS2504X HD the frequency response is only 1.4 dB down at 500 MHz. So you can use the instrument for 70 cm projects, both in the time (y-t mode) as well as frequency domain (FFT), no worries.