Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk

[2N3055]

Since many people that doesn't have (or actively use) scope that has Lecroy/Picoscope/Siglent type of memory management are absolutely sure it is evil and unusable, based on prejudice, wild accusations and no real data, here is an example why all this is a BOGUS problem.

Used Pico as example:

A look at 50 ns pulse width (yes that is a zoom factor of 1M (1 milion), without any visible performance impact :


same thing with resizable, floating overview:


This is full size capture, with 200ms worth of data....


What is crippled here, or hard to use or hard to understand ?
How is this HARDER to understand than manually fuffing around with sample lengths, timebases and such?
What is unclear here?

And to answer to Dave's predicament, you never get ANYTHING free.
Either way you need to MANUALLY set scope to capture long capture BEFOREHAND (either by virtue of fixed sample memory length, or fixed time length.) 

And you don't want to keep scope in this ultra long capture setting all the time. It is practically unusable for normal "scoping around". Not only because it is "lot of data to process". It is simply that every capture will last 200ms even without any processing time. While discussing whether 1M WFMs/sec is better than 100k WFMs/sec is a moot point, once we start talking about 4 WFMs/sec it gets unusable for normal use.

So you will go back to auto memory management or short sample length for "normal" use. Meaning every time you want to use "zoom out" you will need to setup scope memory depth manually and specifically for that and do that beforehand. So the argument " it is nice to have this for times you didn't plan for it, you just realized something, and than you just zoom out and there it is.." doesn't stand.

It is always deliberate manual setup, either way.  I do recognize that each person has its own way of thinking, but calling different way to achieve same thing "crippling defect" and suggesting that "people should not buy these scopes until this defect is fixed" is very, very wrong, both factually, and as a message..
It just seems unnecessarily inflammatory..

[nctnico]

Since many people that doesn't have (or actively use) scope that has Lecroy/Picoscope/Siglent type of memory management is absolutely sure it is evil and unusable, based on prejudice, wild accusations and no real data, here is an example why all this is a BOGUS problem.

I have to stop you right there... I have owned a Siglent scope and the automatic memory mode drove me nuts because it got in the way of working efficiently. So from my side there is no prejudice; only hands on experience and hard facts. I also own a Lecroy scope BTW but I got that because it was cheap and has oodles of bandwidth.

Besides all that: stop attacking people's workflow and force your workflow on others. Nobody is attacking your workflow or forcing a workflow upon you. In the end it is about adding more flexibility to cater more usage scenarios and not coming up with workarounds (which don't work in all cases).

[SilverSolder]

[...]

Used Pico as example:

[...]

The "root cause" of the whole discussion is that the typical oscilloscope doesn't have a very big screen,  so the various zooming ideas being discussed are essentially ways to overcome that in a smooth and convenient way.

Having the scope run on your PC gives you a whole bunch of new advantages, obviously.  With a comparatively gigantic screen, you can have several windows open with different degrees of zoom.   

On the other hand, a PC based scope requires that you are totally comfortable with a mouse-and-keyboard workflow, rather than physical knobs.   Personally, I like both approaches! 

[2N3055]

Since many people that doesn't have (or actively use) scope that has Lecroy/Picoscope/Siglent type of memory management is absolutely sure it is evil and unusable, based on prejudice, wild accusations and no real data, here is an example why all this is a BOGUS problem.

I have to stop you right there... I have owned a Siglent scope and the automatic memory mode drove me nuts because it got in the way of working efficiently. So from my side there is no prejudice; only hands on experience and hard facts. I also own a Lecroy scope BTW but I got that because it was cheap and has oodles of bandwidth.

Besides all that: stop attacking people's workflow and force your workflow on others. Nobody is attacking your workflow or forcing a workflow upon you. In the end it is about adding more flexibility to cater more usage scenarios and not coming up with workarounds (which don't work in all cases).

I'm not attacking your workflow. I sad many times that I understand it works and you like it.
But is not better than what I do, simply different keystrokes and way of thinking.
And since nobody gave any real example of workflow where it is real impediment ,except you, that did give a real, good example of where  this manual memory setting is useful (I keep giving you credit for that).  This is not addressed to you but is a documented explanation how it works on Picoscope, and why many things said here are not standing... As I said, you are right about your example. But that is something I very effectively and simply accomplish on Picoscope the way it is and I guarantee you it has no "crippling defect" because it was made that way.

[2N3055]

[...]

Used Pico as example:

[...]

The "root cause" of the whole discussion is that the typical oscilloscope doesn't have a very big screen,  so the various zooming ideas being discussed are essentially ways to overcome that in a smooth and convenient way.

Having the scope run on your PC gives you a whole bunch of new advantages, obviously.  With a comparatively gigantic screen, you can have several windows open with different degrees of zoom.   

On the other hand, a PC based scope requires that you are totally comfortable with a mouse-and-keyboard workflow, rather than physical knobs.   Personally, I like both approaches!

Agree. That is why I said many messages ago that this is not something that even needs different memory strategy, just reworked zoom mode.
Zoom mode IS dual timebase mode. Just better screen management is needed. And I do think that problem is worse on my Keysight 3000T than on scopes with  10" and 12" screens..

[Elasia]

Elasia's solution I believe is to use the primary timebase of the Zoom mode framework but hidden as the basis for capture zoom out.
Max memory depth selected for ordinary Zoom mode would work as normal but could be toggled to a hidden Zoom UI and then provide capture zoom out capability from the full mem depth the user has set.

Is that right Elasia ?

Correct, you use the code base of zoom mode but are just hiding the shown UI components and rescaling the zoom area to full screen

And you don't get rid of either, you allow the user to use split screen or hide what they want... in the end its all functions of telescopic zooming people are doing, only thing going around and around are semantics of what it looks like

[Elasia]

[...]

Used Pico as example:

[...]

The "root cause" of the whole discussion is that the typical oscilloscope doesn't have a very big screen,  so the various zooming ideas being discussed are essentially ways to overcome that in a smooth and convenient way.

Having the scope run on your PC gives you a whole bunch of new advantages, obviously.  With a comparatively gigantic screen, you can have several windows open with different degrees of zoom.   

On the other hand, a PC based scope requires that you are totally comfortable with a mouse-and-keyboard workflow, rather than physical knobs.   Personally, I like both approaches!

Which i find ironic in the case of the 2k+... while i dont like the real estate consumed by the horizontal scrollbar.. it also isnt a hindrance other than its more data on the screen i dont need to immediately be looking at so for me it works fine as is.. my only adovation is for hiding the extra ui bits so i get more screen space back... which also just happens to be the more natural way to zoom in and out / control memdepth to timebase

[tautech]

Elasia's solution I believe is to use the primary timebase of the Zoom mode framework but hidden as the basis for capture zoom out.
Max memory depth selected for ordinary Zoom mode would work as normal but could be toggled to a hidden Zoom UI and then provide capture zoom out capability from the full mem depth the user has set.

Is that right Elasia ?

Correct, you use the code base of zoom mode but are just hiding the shown UI components and rescaling the zoom area to full screen

And you don't get rid of either, you allow the user to use split screen or hide what they want... in the end its all functions of telescopic zooming people are doing, only thing going around and around are semantics of what it looks like

Of course not.   
What will be interesting is exactly how it's implemented. Zoom in and Zoom out capture capabilities !

When I have some more 2kX Plus hopefully I'll get see a beta of the proposed solution but it's a little way off yet.
Existing strategies will not apparently be changed only capture memory management.

[Elasia]

Elasia's solution I believe is to use the primary timebase of the Zoom mode framework but hidden as the basis for capture zoom out.
Max memory depth selected for ordinary Zoom mode would work as normal but could be toggled to a hidden Zoom UI and then provide capture zoom out capability from the full mem depth the user has set.

Is that right Elasia ?

Correct, you use the code base of zoom mode but are just hiding the shown UI components and rescaling the zoom area to full screen

And you don't get rid of either, you allow the user to use split screen or hide what they want... in the end its all functions of telescopic zooming people are doing, only thing going around and around are semantics of what it looks like

Of course not.   
What will be interesting is exactly how it's implemented. Zoom in and Zoom out capture capabilities !

When I have some more 2kX Plus hopefully I'll get see a beta of the proposed solution but it's a little way off yet.
Existing strategies will not apparently be changed only capture memory management.

lol does defprom still have yours?

[tautech]

Elasia's solution I believe is to use the primary timebase of the Zoom mode framework but hidden as the basis for capture zoom out.
Max memory depth selected for ordinary Zoom mode would work as normal but could be toggled to a hidden Zoom UI and then provide capture zoom out capability from the full mem depth the user has set.

Is that right Elasia ?

Correct, you use the code base of zoom mode but are just hiding the shown UI components and rescaling the zoom area to full screen

And you don't get rid of either, you allow the user to use split screen or hide what they want... in the end its all functions of telescopic zooming people are doing, only thing going around and around are semantics of what it looks like

Of course not.   
What will be interesting is exactly how it's implemented. Zoom in and Zoom out capture capabilities !

When I have some more 2kX Plus hopefully I'll get see a beta of the proposed solution but it's a little way off yet.
Existing strategies will not apparently be changed only capture memory management.

lol does defprom still have yours?

Nope. 
Got sold before I even got it back.....and we were in Covid lockdown at the time !
The moment it came back, in the mail again it went to its new owner.

So now I just have to use a SDS5054X. 

[2N3055]

.............
So now I just have to use a SDS5054X. 

Awwwww, poor soul !!

[Martin72]

Just seen it now..
If I understand it right, they (siglent) sacrifice the manual handling of the full memory for permanent active history ?
It´s a little bit confusing me, because manual "says" the number of stored frames are depending to the timebase setting.
So as you actual got different memorypoints depending on the timebase, you also would have different amount of frames which will be stored.
So what do they do with the 200 mpts ?
Just asked them now via email.

[tautech]

video link

Just seen it now..
If I understand it right, they (siglent) sacrifice the manual handling of the full memory for permanent active history ?
It´s a little bit confusing me, because manual "says" the number of stored frames are depending to the timebase setting.
So as you actual got different memory points depending on the timebase, you also would have different amount of frames which will be stored.
So what do they do with the 200 mpts ?

Assigned to the History memory buffer......it is all used irrespective of the mem depth selected.
Circular buffer and when smaller mem depths are used more History frames are available.

Keep RTFM. 

[Martin72]

Keep RTFM. 

Nice advice...
The more you repeat this, the more it must be getting important.
Meanwhile the siglent europe support answered me now, on a sunday evening.
It was not an auto-answer you might expect as nearly always as a first reaction.

[Elasia]

Keep RTFM. 

Nice advice...
The more you repeat this, the more it must be getting important.
Meanwhile the siglent europe support answered me now, on a sunday evening.
It was not an auto-answer you might expect as nearly always as a first reaction.

That's surprising... its midnight over there, get the deskew yet?

[Martin72]

No Sir and it´s getting better…
On livechat I´ve told them, well when delivering with UPS, you should be better deliver to the company I work.
No problem they repeat, just tell us the adress.
I´ve told them…
Yesterday I got a new status, it is on it´s way…
To my private adress...

[EEVblog]

Just seen it now..
If I understand it right, they (siglent) sacrifice the manual handling of the full memory for permanent active history ?

Yes, correct.
Other scopes on the market like R&S allow your to do both without problem.

It´s a little bit confusing me, because manual "says" the number of stored frames are depending to the timebase setting.
So as you actual got different memorypoints depending on the timebase, you also would have different amount of frames which will be stored.
So what do they do with the 200 mpts ?

They fill up the 200M with as many frames as will fit based on the current timebase. You get no say in it, and you can't disable it.
You can kinda-sorta get around it by setting a slow timebase setting and using using zoom mode.

[rf-loop]

Way ahead of you on this.......any capture first needs available memory .......but it's already assigned for post trigger History !
Zoom out capture memory depth requirements cannot grab memory from thin air...it's already being used...post trigger !
So to implement capture zoom out another memory management strategy need be developed and this is being discussed privately.

Got a clever plan, we're all ears. 

And yes it needs memory... so where is it getting that memory in zoom mode? It was already assigned to buffering.. because the user said they wanted zoom mode.. this is zoom mode without all the fancy UI..  hell.. use the zoom button for it and just make a right side UI control panel for it.. aka another zoom ui if hiding the other parts.. then let the user default that mode if they choose

Seems I missed the full meaning of you earlier post but rf-loop didn't and it seems a very valid solution. 

No. Just like you rf-loop doesn't even understand the actual problem at hand. With rf-loop's solution you still lose the zoom function for it's intended purpose. Dave did mis-name this thread by calling the behaviour a quirk; the zoom-out feature actually is there by design in other oscilloscopes. Before making any other comments take the time to study user manuals and watch videos on how oscilloscope's from the competition work and try to understand why they work that way. Or just wait until Siglent fixes the firmware. You'll see there will be zero impact on existing functionality. I really don't understand why you are so opposed on improving the product you are selling. 

No. No and No!

In this place I ask... what are you smoking if you  can not  imagine how this solution work and so that then it can keep BOTH kind of working principle in same scope just so that user normal run with fixed mem length in full window zoom mode like ancient DS1052E) and after then when he stop scope he can zoom out... zoom out like its is some miraculous feature. Like in your scope you can zoom in and out and pan  and go to other position details or less details, up to you how much you want zoom in or out. But after this @elasia based solution it also keep opportunity that also in run mode you can also zoom out up to full memory length displayed and NEWER drop situation where something is out from display and whole trace available only in stop mode. With this simplest solution you get all together up to you how you want setup and use your scope. With my poor language skills, I cannot explain it in such a way that you too can perceive it in practice. Try make model using carton, scissors and glue and pen.

If you use this kind of (improved Siglent) scope I can ask, what functionality you are then missing. Perhaps you need then desperately try find new arguments or move the goal in middle of the game.

[nctnico]

Please read all of my posts on this topic. I have explained very clearly why and how zoom mode is NOT the solution. And if you think carefully about it then you'll also see that by using zoom mode to force the memory length you sacrifice the zoom function (delayed / dual timebase) as well. Also, don't get stuck in old grudges and be blinded by them (same problem Tautech has). Currently Siglent is missing a memory management feature which is easy to add and it seems they are working on it right now.

[Gandalf_Sr]

Please read all of my posts on this topic. I have explained very clearly why and how zoom mode is NOT the solution. And if you think carefully about it then you'll also see that by using zoom mode to force the memory length you sacrifice the zoom function (delayed / dual timebase) as well.

Translation; you are wrong I am right, please don't ask me to justify why I am right.

Also, don't get stuck in old grudges and be blinded by them (same problem Tautech has).

Pot calls kettle black.

Currently Siglent is missing a memory management feature which is easy to add and it seems they are working on it right now.

Translation; Siglent produced a product lacking a function that seems to defy logic in why anyone with a basic grasp of reality would not use such a vast amount of memory to be able to zoom out.  But hey, don't worry, the Siglent coding cavalry are about to ride over the hill and rescue us all....

On the brighter side, at least you didn't say we were all "stupid" for not agreeing with you.

[Elasia]

Please read all of my posts on this topic. I have explained very clearly why and how zoom mode is NOT the solution. And if you think carefully about it then you'll also see that by using zoom mode to force the memory length you sacrifice the zoom function (delayed / dual timebase) as well. Also, don't get stuck in old grudges and be blinded by them (same problem Tautech has). Currently Siglent is missing a memory management feature which is easy to add and it seems they are working on it right now.

I know you keep saying it but what we are talking about doesnt even modify siglents UI zoom mode as it is.. im lost why you keep saying zoom is sacrificed?

I'm now using zoom mode as is and it works fine to zoom out and see more data on screen, i mean thats kind of its job right?  What do you think zoom mode is suppose to be? I'm a bit lost on that as well


What we have been talking about is using the zoom functions core code to be cloned and wired up to an enhanced UI with just a couple of menu bar selections to pick your higher timebase/memdepth from a list of timebases they can support and already do because they are defined for the zoom module to already use

Now for what this is NOT.. its not just magically adding more memspace to the current timebase they quite possibly cant support for xyz design reasons and is the part they are debating how to do still.. and might take them awhile to figure out as that really would be a major memory reallocation against their code base

[nctnico]

Also, don't get stuck in old grudges and be blinded by them (same problem Tautech has).

Pot calls kettle black.

Nope. One of my customers bought some Siglent equipment because I suggested it. Including equipment needed for a very critical demonstration for the US government. In the end grudges and principles are just a waste of energy and money.

[nctnico]

Please read all of my posts on this topic. I have explained very clearly why and how zoom mode is NOT the solution. And if you think carefully about it then you'll also see that by using zoom mode to force the memory length you sacrifice the zoom function (delayed / dual timebase) as well. Also, don't get stuck in old grudges and be blinded by them (same problem Tautech has). Currently Siglent is missing a memory management feature which is easy to add and it seems they are working on it right now.

I know you keep saying it but what we are talking about doesnt even modify siglents UI zoom mode as it is.. im lost why you keep saying zoom is sacrificed?

I'm now using zoom mode as is and it works fine to zoom out and see more data on screen, i mean thats kind of its job right?  What do you think zoom mode is suppose to be? I'm a bit lost on that as well

In some cases you might want to look at a signal at two positions / different time bases (this is called dual timebase on analog oscilloscopes). With auto memory length the memory depth will be set to the amount needed to fill the screen with the longest time/div setting. However if you want to force the oscilloscope to use more memory you'll need to set the time/div longer. But in that case you likely won't be able to see the details in a signal. So without being able to manually force the memory depth you can use the zoom mode to force deeper memory OR see two parts of a signal at the same time. IOW: With auto memory depth you can't have both deep memory and see two parts of the same signal at the same time.

[Fungus]

Currently Siglent is missing a memory management feature which is easy to add and it seems they are working on it right now.

The fact that they're "working on it" proves that there's a problem.

[Elasia]

Please read all of my posts on this topic. I have explained very clearly why and how zoom mode is NOT the solution. And if you think carefully about it then you'll also see that by using zoom mode to force the memory length you sacrifice the zoom function (delayed / dual timebase) as well. Also, don't get stuck in old grudges and be blinded by them (same problem Tautech has). Currently Siglent is missing a memory management feature which is easy to add and it seems they are working on it right now.

I know you keep saying it but what we are talking about doesnt even modify siglents UI zoom mode as it is.. im lost why you keep saying zoom is sacrificed?

I'm now using zoom mode as is and it works fine to zoom out and see more data on screen, i mean thats kind of its job right?  What do you think zoom mode is suppose to be? I'm a bit lost on that as well

In some cases you might want to look at a signal at two positions / different time bases (this is called dual timebase on analog oscilloscopes). With auto memory length the memory depth will be set to the amount needed to fill the screen with the longest time/div setting. However if you want to force the oscilloscope to use more memory you'll need to set the time/div longer. But in that case you likely won't be able to see the details in a signal. So without being able to manually force the memory depth you can use the zoom mode to force deeper memory OR see two parts of a signal at the same time. IOW: With auto memory depth you can't have both deep memory and see two parts of the same signal at the same time.

Oh you mean split screen? Yeah they dont really do a good job of that either.. you just get the smaller horizonal box at the top you cant vertically resize to choose how much each pane is using