Magnova oscilloscope

[nctnico]

Hello,

there is still the Micsig MHO3-3504 for 3568.81 € with 350 MHz. With 14 " 1920x1200 screen and 2 x 3 Gpts/s and 2 x 360 Mpts memory and variable filters.

AFAIK that one either doesn't have 12 bit or digital channels. And IIRC only two channels if it is the 12 bit model. All in all what the Magnova offers (be it on paper so far) is way more versatile & complete.

[Martin72]

It should, even if it (later) costs almost twice as much.

[egonotto]

Hello,

there is still the Micsig MHO3-3504 for 3568.81 € with 350 MHz. With 14 " 1920x1200 screen and 2 x 3 Gpts/s and 2 x 360 Mpts memory and variable filters.

AFAIK that one either doesn't have 12 bit or digital channels. And IIRC only two channels if it is the 12 bit model. All in all what the Magnova offers (be it on paper so far) is way more versatile & complete.

Hallo,

the Micsig MHO3-3504 has 12 bits and 4 channels.
But no function generator and no digital channels.

It all depends on what you need.

Best regards
egonotto

[Aldo22]

the Micsig MHO3-3504 has 12 bits and 4 channels.
But no function generator and no digital channels.

As far as I can see, the Magnova does not "have" an AWG, you have to buy it separately.

Optional Waveform Generator hardware module for the Magnova BMO series. Arbitrary and isolated Waveform Generator with 1 channel and 90 MHz bandwith (sine) and a sampling rate of 400 MSa/s.
€ 398.- net

That's about 470€ VAT included for a 1-channel AWG "module"? You probably can't even sell it individually or keep it if you sell the scope.

The same for the "logic probes"

Set of digital logic probes (8 channel + 2 ground) for the Magnova BMO series.
€ 199.- net

[Martin72]

Perhaps batronix should ask Rigol/Siglent if they can control their generators via USB/LAN.
At 470€ I add a little more and get a 2-channel, "liberated" to 120Mhz.

[egonotto]

Hello,

for 5111,05 € you get a Magnova BMO350 with 16 digital channels (1600 Mpts/s) and an isolated function generator (90 MHz).
I don't understand the 320 Mpts thing, because with four active channels you only have 60 Mpts and 4 * 60 Mpts = 240 Mpts.

Best regards
egonotto

[Vitold]

So far, you've done little else than to bash the scope this thread is about (with no experience of it) and you bashed most of the people that responded to you.

I am a fan of Batronix, I've seen nothing but a nice supportive company, who btw does have experience with development of TE, including their fantastic scope demo board.

You may not be aware of this, but it's poor etiquette to do what you did.

I have bought scopes from Batronix in the past and it was always a very good experience and very technical people. I think an oscilloscope from Batronix will be very good too.

Too bad Batronix did not yet make lower-price scope like the new Siglent. Maybe someday?

And maybe scope is also hackable like Siglent too ... 

[DaneLaw]

Hello,

there is still the Micsig MHO3-3504 for 3568.81 € with 350 MHz. With 14 " 1920x1200 screen and 2 x 3 Gpts/s and 2 x 360 Mpts memory and variable filters.

AFAIK that one either doesn't have 12 bit or digital channels. And IIRC only two channels if it is the 12 bit model. All in all what the Magnova offers (be it on paper so far) is way more versatile & complete.

Where do you get that MHO are not 12 bit and only 2-ch for 12-bit?

All Micsig's big screen models 14" 500MHz are 4ch with actively powered sockets to run their peripherals through their proprietary MicOpi interface for their line of MicOpi compatible products
with auto cal on the fly, fx SigOfit [optical isolated fiber probes] and various current probes & coils.

MicOpi units.
MHO 12-bit (4ch, 250, 350, 500Mhz, 3GSa, 360Mpts, 230wfms, variable pr ch. filtering 30Hz to bw)
MDO 8-bit (4ch, 250, 350, 500Mhz, 3GSa, 360Mpts, 230wfms, variable pr ch. filtering 30Hz to bw)
ETO 8-bit (battery 4ch, 350, 500Mhz, 3GSa, 360Mpts, 230wfms, variable pr ch. filtering 30Hz to bw)

All of these are also Full HD like Magnova but in a prefered 16:10 ratio so 1200p or FHD+ versus the more common 1080p (vertical) so the 1200p screen is more square, with added vertical depth than the normal movie-aspect ratio of 16:9 (1920x1080)
Vertical screen depth is something I prioritize, not least on a scope with a high vertical resolution, but the Magnova screen is so big (15.6") for a scope that the 16:9 ain't a con, and you will likely have around the same vertical depth as fx a 14" or at least very close to it..

One of the biggest gains on the Magnova is that it seems to be a western vendor backland that hopefully gives a rats azz about their customers and maybe will listen to their user's feedback..
- something that leaves a lot to be desired on some Chinese vendors, not least Micsig.



MHO

[nctnico]

Micsig makes nice products which work as advertised from day 1 (kudos to Micsig for that), they use bigger screens compared to the competition but they diversify too much between models. Like having an 8 bit MDO with digital channels and 12 bit HDO without digital channels. I want 12 bits AND the digital channels so neither models interest me.

[egonotto]

Micsig makes nice products which work as advertised from day 1 (kudos to Micsig for that), they use bigger screens compared to the competition but they diversify too much between models. Like having an 8 bit MDO with digital channels and 12 bit HDO without digital channels. I want 12 bits AND the digital channels so neither models interest me.

Hello,

the MHO3 is very new and still has teething problems. But Micsig is very helpful.
For example, my MHO3 only had a maximum waveform capture rate of 40 instead of 230,000 wfms/s. Micsig has released a new update in a few days and I can now achieve 35000 wfms/s, in burst.
But the MDO has no digital channels either.

Best regards
egonotto

[DaneLaw]

Micsig makes nice products which work as advertised from day 1 (kudos to Micsig for that), they use bigger screens compared to the competition but they diversify too much between models. Like having an 8 bit MDO with digital channels and 12 bit HDO without digital channels. I want 12 bits AND the digital channels so neither models interest me.

No, the saying should be, Micsig "undermines" good working products by making OTA-attacks that do fifth-column work on an otherwise good product, and when highlighting it..you realize how little they care.
And "NO" Micsig doesn't implement dedicated LA in any of their scopes., if you want more than 4 channels for logic.. look at a PC-based solution or another scope, seems to be the conclusion from Micsig.. that's fair enough, but the lack of any frequency response analyzing tools for Micsigs higher end models, ain't ideal.

Even the scopes they are selling today, from some of the biggest retailers in the Western world and likely clearing inventory... It looks like they are closing down the servers for apps.. App market, OTA updates etc....as Im getting an error when trying to connect.. could be just at my end, but this ain't a Micisg thread, so will highlight it another relevant thread.. someday.

Same with their rep here on EEVblog, that gone MIA (hiding) after all his yearlong swansong, with numerous indications/promises after seeking input from a lot of EEVblog owners.
Think twice before you jump into bed with a Micsig scope, not least in the bench category where there are a lot of alternatives..

[moerm]

Set of digital logic probes (8 channel + 2 ground) for the Magnova BMO series.
€ 199.- net[/i]

For the sake of fairness, that's a really low price especially when considering that it samples at 1.6 GHz which suggests it's good enough for 400 MHz. For many other scopes you can't even get logic sampling > 1 GSa/s, no matter the price.

[Martin72]

I read through the data again because I was wondering what could distinguish the scope from others and why it is not exactly inexpensive.
1GSa/s for all channels and max. 350Mhz bandwidth, I can already get that from other manufacturers and at a lower price.
So there must be other things, the most noticeable being the screen size and resolution.
Then the workmanship and the materials used.
Metal housing, made in Germany.
Printed circuit boards assembled in Germany, final assembly in Germany.
Then the rotary encoders from Switzerland, the microswitches from Denmark, but that is a qualitatively different house number, without question.
The workmanship is state of the art and that costs money.
OK, what else...
Of the properties listed, the FFT function catches my eye.
8Mpts, 4 traces, that's an announcement that you usually find in the higher price range.
If you believe the data regarding wfms/s in normal operation and mask test, the scope seems to have a generally high speed.
Then there's the fanless design, something quite unique.
But, it might be worth its future price once the promo period is over.
The question remains as to which target group you want to address.

[xrunner]

I read through the data again because I was wondering what could distinguish the scope from others and why it is not exactly inexpensive ...

They say it "in your face" style -

Damn Good Software

 

https://www.batronix.com/shop/batronix/magnova/index.html

[Sariel]

I hope Batronix will have good experience with this scope release, that will encourage them to continue and develop more test equipment devices.

Maybe a German made, high quality with many features handheld multimeter.

[moerm]

"German made", "German made", "German made" (+ "swiss made" + "from Denmark").

Yes that scope seems to have some attractive points, and yes, "made in Germany" is one of them - but, pardon me, certainly not one of high value. I mean, it's not like Germany is the or at least one noteworthy scope-country.

What "German made" actually, realistically means boils down not to high-end know-how, but rather to "good quality" as in "well built" meaning "not carelessly slapped together but rather built in proper facilities and by (usually) well trained technicians and workers.

But wrt design and/or high-tech it says very little. Germans would built (as in "production") even a technically crappy scope with care and well that is, it might be crappy as scope but it would be sturdy and likely survive decades in a useful state.

BUT: That's very similar in quite a few other european countries, Switzerland being but one example.

At the end of the day build quality is just one factor. With a scope one should also ask/look at whether it's better than average in its class or maybe even exceptional and whether it offers, at a minimum, what's considered "normal" in its class or, ideally, even everything a potential buyer (or ideally even most potential buyers) want, need, expect.

And please, pretty please, don't bring up screen size again and again. That was, many years ago, when scopes usually/often wouldn't come with a VGA, DVI, [whatever] external monitor connector or with LAN port + http server or somesuch.
Nowadays, again kudos to Siglent (and a few others), I hardly care a about screen size because, if I really need a large screen occasionally '12" vs only 8"' isn't a good solution, 19" or even larger vs 8" is. Screen size nowadays largely is an everyday comfort question, not anymore a major factor. Meaning: I'd buy a really good and attractive scope with a "crappy" 6.5" screen (and a VGA connector) without hesitation, but I'd seriously hesitate to buy a scope that leaves me wanting but has a - wow! - 15.6" screen.

Reminds me of the now trendy DMM with a 4.x" display, touchy of course and loads of so, so (not) useful GUI stuff. Yes, sometimes it's useful, indeed, to see a "trend" plot (which I tend to call "snail scope view"), sure, but at the end of the day, just like the screen size trend, it's mainly one thing: a playground for marketing, or in other words, a way to create "needs" (which actually just are wants) in "the market" (translation: the buyer herd whose raison d'etre is to be milked).

So, sorry, in the lower end market segment max. 1.6 GS/s may be acceptable (and I fully agree. 100 or 200 MHz bandwidth is plenty or even more than enough for 90% of typical hobbyist use) - but the price is way to high.

So, let's ask the other relevant question: what do you expect for that quite high price tag? Is "made in Germany" really important enough to you to shell out that amount of money? Really? Or maybe "large screen size"?

I personally - and I accept and respect if your view is very different - think it's not attractive. For the 1 - 2 GS/s segment it's far too expensive and for the segment of its price class it's, pardon me, nice (as in "it looks nice") but far below what I expect for that kind of money.

What's the current price for a low-end R&S scope? I don't think it's higher than that of the Magnova - and it gives you "a german scope!" and a (kind of) large screen too.

Earth to Magnova fans "care to return to earth, feet on solid ground?"

A nice weekend to everyone

[DaneLaw]

And please, pretty please, don't bring up screen size again and again. That was, many years ago, when scopes usually/often wouldn't come with a VGA, DVI, [whatever] external monitor connector or with LAN port + http server or somesuch.
Nowadays, again kudos to Siglent (and a few others), I hardly care a about screen size because, if I really need a large screen occasionally '12" vs only 8"' isn't a good solution, 19" or even larger vs 8" is. Screen size nowadays largely is an everyday comfort question, not anymore a major factor. Meaning: I'd buy a really good and attractive scope with a "crappy" 6.5" screen (and a VGA connector) without hesitation, but I'd seriously hesitate to buy a scope that leaves me wanting but has a - wow! - 15.6" screen.

Reminds me of the now trendy DMM with a 4.x" display, touchy of course and loads of so, so (not) useful GUI stuff. Yes, sometimes it's useful, indeed, to see a "trend" plot (which I tend to call "snail scope view"), sure, but at the end of the day, just like the screen size trend, it's mainly one thing: a playground for marketing, or in other words, a way to create "needs" (which actually just are wants) in "the market" (translation: the buyer herd whose raison d'etre is to be milked).

You are one precarious fellow.. you talk like your literally think you're the center of the conversation, you ain't, the Magnova scope is.. you just arrived.
What people wanna bring up, depending on what they value.. you don't decide.

[Martin72]

Earth to Magnova fans

If there are already "fans", then it happened pretty quickly.
And "Made in Germany" is a cost factor that you have to take into account if you want to get to the bottom of the price instead of dismissing it as "far too expensive".
It's quite possible that nobody will want to pay for it later and you'll have to switch to cheaper production.
Only time will tell.
I also can't imagine that it was a bunch of fools who developed the Scope, in other words, they must have had something in mind when doing it this way and not otherwise.
So there will also be a reason why the sample rate is not soaring to breathtaking heights, but is rather at the bottom with (usually) still sufficient reserve for the maximum bandwidth.
Let's just wait until more information is available instead of talking about "fans" and far too expensive right now.

[DaneLaw]

Magnova UI does seem to have a vibe of its own.
Do wonder how much (if any) of the right-orientated sidebars can be shrunk a tad.



The modulated intensity grading seems okay with good separation, at least in regards to what I have seen from other vendors, like Rigol's current DHO-lineup, which left a lot to be desired on its intensity grading on modulated signals, even though it on paper certainly got the levels.

Magnova 256 levels?


// Source
https://images.batronix.com/magnova/Screenshot-4CH-Dig-Waterfall-FFT-Peaks-1920.jpg
https://images.batronix.com/magnova/Screenshot-4CH-AM-Zoom.jpg

[Martin72]

It would almost be too much of a good thing for me, but you would have to try it out in practice.

[KungFuJosh]

Magnova UI does seem to have a vibe of its own.
Do wonder how much (if any) of the right-orientated sidebars can be shrunk a tad.

I have no idea, I'm just guessing, but the arrow in the top right corner might hide the FFT side menu.

[DaneLaw]

Magnova UI does seem to have a vibe of its own.
Do wonder how much (if any) of the right-orientated sidebars can be shrunk a tad.

I have no idea, I'm just guessing, but the arrow in the top right corner might hide the FFT side menu.

Could be' or maybe it simply toggles between various features.. FFTx, Zoom, Cursors, Markers, Generator etc.
I do like their passive cooling approach.

[KungFuJosh]

Magnova UI does seem to have a vibe of its own.
Do wonder how much (if any) of the right-orientated sidebars can be shrunk a tad.

I have no idea, I'm just guessing, but the arrow in the top right corner might hide the FFT side menu.

Could be' or maybe it simply toggles between various features.. FFTx, Zoom, Cursors, Markers, Generator etc.
I do like their passive cooling approach.

Nice, two speculation posts, now maybe they'll chime in and tell us. 🤣

[core]

As user Andre77 already told us the ADC it's a TI ADC12QJ1600.

In the datasheet I've found  :

Sample rate (max) (Msps) : 1600
Resolution (Bits) : 12, Number of input channels : 4
SNR (dB) : 57.4 (100MHz), ENOB (bit): 9.1 (100MHz), SFDR (dB) : 64 (100MHz)

Power consumption (1 GSPS):
Quad Channel: 477 mW / channel
Dual channel: 700 mW / channel
Single channel: 1000 mW
Total power dissipation (4x1.6GSPS, High Performance Mode) : 3.22W

So ADC can do 4 x 1.6GSPS. 1GSPS can be a power dissipation limitation or a limited processing power of FPGA (Ultrascale+ MPSoC from Xilinx)
We don't know exactly the FPGA model, probably an EG with GPU included.

More hardware details from Andre77 will be very useful until we'll see a teardown.

Very interesting, in the brochure I've fond the following :
"There are no tantalum or electrolytic capacitors installed on the Magnova mainboard and frontend, as well as in the generator and logic analyser modules".
I don't like at all to see (wet) electrolytic capacitors on sensitive devices. So it'a a very good news.


Interesting, Siglent SDS1000X HD include the following :
2 x ADC12D1000 (each of 2x ADC at max 1.6 GSPS in dual mode), power dissipation about 3.6W/chip.
SNR (dB) : 60.2, ENOB (bit): 9.6, SFDR (dB) :71
FPGS is an  XCZU2CG UltraScale+ (no GPU included)


All in all, I like what the Magnova promise us. I like the display, the passive heat dissipation, the included FFT implementation and Bode option.
For me it's an optimal mix between SDS3000X HD and Misg MHO3.

Let't hope it's not a vaporware.

[moerm]

You are one precarious fellow.. you talk like your literally think you're the center of the conversation, you ain't, the Magnova scope is.. you just arrived.
What people wanna bring up, depending on what they value.. you don't decide.

Wrong, provably.
Let me help you out with a relevant quote:

I personally - and I accept and respect if your view is very different - think it's (... whatever)

Actually, it rather seems that you, and quite a few of your "thankers", simply don't like my way of thinking and/or talking, and/or "disturbing" the way of discussing you're used to and like.

But whatever, as you, for an exception, correctly stated, this thread is not about me but rather about the Magnova - which unlike your post, actually was the topic of my post.

So, no offense taken from an empty shell, have a nice week

Earth to Magnova fans

If there are already "fans", then it happened pretty quickly.
And "Made in Germany" is a cost factor that you have to take into account if you want to get to the bottom of the price instead of dismissing it as "far too expensive".
It's quite possible that nobody will want to pay for it later and you'll have to switch to cheaper production.
Only time will tell.
I also can't imagine that it was a bunch of fools who developed the Scope, in other words, they must have had something in mind when doing it this way and not otherwise.
So there will also be a reason why the sample rate is not soaring to breathtaking heights, but is rather at the bottom with (usually) still sufficient reserve for the maximum bandwidth.
Let's just wait until more information is available instead of talking about "fans" and far too expensive right now.

Sounds quite reasonable. I largely agree.
And yes, I admit it, my "earth to Magnova fans" sentence was but a, easily mistaken it seems, attempt to lead/invite back to reality, feet on the ground.

As user Andre77 already told us the ADC it's a TI ADC12QJ1600.

In the datasheet I've found  :

...
SNR (dB) : 57.4 (100MHz), ENOB (bit): 9.1 (100MHz)

A miracle, look mom, a miracle! (probably another failing attempt of me trying to put it in a funny way)

So ADC can do 4 x 1.6GSPS. 1GSPS can be a power dissipation limitation or a limited processing power of FPGA (Ultrascale+ MPSoC from Xilinx)

... or, my benevolent positive guess, Batronix engineers wanting to stay reasonably honest and not go below 8.5 bits ENOB ...

All in all, I like what the Magnova promise us. I like the display, the passive heat dissipation, the included FFT implementation and Bode option.
For me it's an optimal mix between SDS3000X HD and Misg MHO3.

Let't hope it's not a vaporware.

So, there seem to be some potential customers for Batronix (which pleases me).

"vaporware" seems to be too harsh a word to use, I don't think that Batronix is basically spreading lies or making empty wet-dream promises. My guess is that they still have a bit ironing to do to make the bride as beautiful as possible. Plus, I guess, they are still doing quite some testing, gathering production or at least early pre-production unit data and nailing down final public specs, etc, well, the usual.

vaporware or similar, I'm willing to bet, is not to be expected from Batronix.