Author Topic: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES  (Read 348177 times)

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Offline exe

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #875 on: November 06, 2019, 08:38:17 am »
It seems very odd that there was so little left to find.

Unless, of course, they were aliens.  :horse:

I have same thoughts. I'm surprised how many models they released. Would love to know the company history.
 

Offline Barbouri

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #876 on: November 06, 2019, 08:42:37 pm »

I have same thoughts. I'm surprised how many models they released. Would love to know the company history.

Hi Johnboy and exe,

Tech Obsessed has a Power Designs Inc. History page
https://techobsessed.net/power-designs/

From my research the information on "Tech Obsessed's" page is pretty accurate with the exception of.

August 2006 - Solomon Technologies, Inc. announced that it has completed its acquisition of Technipower LLC, a Danbury, Connecticut-based manufacturer of power supplies and related equipment for the defense, aerospace and commercial sectors.

My research shows that Unipower LLC acquired Technipower in 2011, not 2012.

Greg (Barbouri)
 
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Offline exe

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #877 on: November 07, 2019, 10:45:51 am »
Tech Obsessed has a Power Designs Inc. History page
https://techobsessed.net/power-designs/

Thanks, Greg! I was hoping for a bit more, like a history from human perspective. Like, two friends got drunk in a garage, designed and assembled their first power supply over night, sold it with a good profit, then they decided to establish a business...
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #878 on: November 07, 2019, 02:32:38 pm »
Tech Obsessed has a Power Designs Inc. History page
https://techobsessed.net/power-designs/

Thanks, Greg! I was hoping for a bit more, like a history from human perspective. Like, two friends got drunk in a garage, designed and assembled their first power supply over night, sold it with a good profit, then they decided to establish a business...

There is no history. Some of us believe something is really fishy with them:

As someone else hinted in a past discussion, I am suspicious they were in fact from another planet and graced us with their designs...

Glad someone else believes this, since there is no internet history on them.  If something exists then it will be on the internet.  Since "they" do not exist but their products exist, something must be going on.  A logical explanation is aliens made them for some purpose that we do not know about.  Like help develop something for space flight that will take us to another planet.  Once this theory is proven then the value of these supplies will greatly increase.  I just hope humans will not become a food source like I think about every time I look at my power supply.  God forbid, the PD is not the alien (but just in case I use kind words when I talk to my power supply)
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline Johnboy

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #879 on: November 08, 2019, 08:23:38 pm »
Thanks, Greg! I was hoping for a bit more, like a history from human perspective. Like, two friends got drunk in a garage, designed and assembled their first power supply over night, sold it with a good profit, then they decided to establish a business...

Well, as it turns out, you get your wish. I just got off the phone with the son of one of the Power Designs engineers, and some of the stories he told me are, frankly, fascinating. He seemed very surprised to hear from someone about the company, as his father was apparently more well-known for his later work with Venus Scientific. Unfortunately he passed away five years ago, so I cannot interview him directly. His son told me that his father was decorated with a gold pin for his design contributions to the Apollo missions for a power supply that went to the moon (!). So the "aliens" jokes can die now; I guess the aliens are us.

The son said he would go see what he can find of his father's stuff related to Power Designs and will update me, and would appreciate any additional info we can dig up. I am collecting a list of links and other info to send him.

I'm not sure if I should post what I've learned here in this thread, or on eas' comment page, or make a new thread, or what. But there is obviously quite the story here, and I've been given a few new bites of info to work with that may produce even more information. I'm open to any suggestions.
 
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Online vindoline

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #880 on: November 08, 2019, 08:41:22 pm »
Johnboy, this sounds really interesting! I would vote for adding the info to this thread to keep the PD info all in one place.
 

Offline Johnboy

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #881 on: November 08, 2019, 09:26:10 pm »
Johnboy, this sounds really interesting! I would vote for adding the info to this thread to keep the PD info all in one place.

Noted. Maybe it should be put to a vote.

There are a couple of reservations in my mind about spilling here. This is an international forum, and this thread alone has hundreds of thousands of views. My bloodhound game wouldn't be difficult for many of the more IT-savvy members here to duplicate, to say nothing of the ghostly guests. The last thing I want is this poor guy to regret having ever called me back after receiving a bunch of calls in the middle of the night about the Power Designs company from all corners of the globe. He at one point even offered to send me a picture or two of his dad at work, so if that means anything to any of you, I would appreciate all of you letting me "lone wolf" this particular source of information for now.  If he becomes annoyed, that will also likely be the last of any information or cooperation from his end. With your collective discretion, we may be able to give something back (in a way) to the designer of these instruments. There are other family members still alive whom I haven't been able to contact directly yet, but their stories may also shed more light on the history of this company and its designs, so it's vital that that process doesn't get unduly replicated by well-meaning, incurably-curious entities, because then they'll start to avoid us. I'm not being grandiose here, I have just realized that this could backfire spectacularly. I'd like to have a list of questions to ask them when I call back, and I'd strongly encourage you to add your own, so I can do it right. Unfortunately the son is not an engineer (interesting story about that as well) so they can't be the technical questions we'd all like to ask of the designer himself. However, more broad questions about PDI that I might not have thought of would be great. Again, I am asking for all your cooperation, not demanding it. I'm probably as curious as most of you.

EDIT: I'm obviously also a little out of my depth here. If any of you have any private ideas as to how I might share without accidentally creating a problem for this guy, please PM me.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 09:39:12 pm by Johnboy »
 

Offline Melt-O-Tronic

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #882 on: November 08, 2019, 10:46:03 pm »
Wow, this is awesome, Johnboy.  I first became aware of Power Designs through this thread and encountered my first one in the wild last year at a hamfest.  I'm at least as curious as others here about the history and -- as the History Guy says -- it's history worth remembering!  The sheer engineering quality is enough to make the company history worth saving for posterity, as much as Hewlett Packard's history.

I don't have any input regarding your source's privacy, other than I hope he realizes that there is a significant thirst for understanding out there, precisely because of the wide appreciation for & admiration of the work done by PD.  I hope he finds that a blessing rather than a curse.  Offering him right-of-review before publication may be helpful.

THANK YOU for researching!
 
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Offline Barbouri

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #883 on: November 09, 2019, 12:28:08 am »
Power Designs Inc. advertisement from "Electronics" magazine 1961
$339.50 in 1961 with inflation would be around $2,900.00 in 2019
 
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Offline Johnboy

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #884 on: November 09, 2019, 06:44:03 pm »
This probably belongs in this thread as well.
 

Offline alextwin007

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #885 on: November 09, 2019, 10:41:25 pm »
I'm glad this thread is active again so I can show off.  I got a 4010 from a coworker at a hamfest.  I was buying a Tek 214 from him and I just fell in love with the dials of the interface.  I got it in non-working condition, I was told it was calibrated a few decades ago and that he loneed it out and it just stopped working, but since he had another one he didn't put the time in to figuring out what was wrong.  Looking up info for this model I found there was little out there, and upon going through this thread it seems that this one is somewhat rare.  In the end I was able to replace a resistor and a blown internal fuse, and some deoxit and I got it working.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, as a usual hobbiest I have no way to calibrate it as it is more precises then any of the meters I have  :o.  I currently use it as my go to power supply and a voltage reference.

I'm also interested in hearing about the history of this company as well since there is so little info on them.
Having a test equipment addiction is difficult when you don't have a lot of room.  The solution, only collect small adorable test equipment.

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Offline Johnboy

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #886 on: November 10, 2019, 04:34:09 pm »
Ok, so after some thought about this matter, I've decided to write about my brief interview with the son of one of the engineers at Power Designs. Spoiler: There isn't a great deal of new info about PDI as a company here, but some of you may find this interesting anyway, as I did.

The gentleman I spoke to is the son of Arthur Silver. For those of you who may have never heard that name before, he was the man who is credited with inventor status regarding the Uniply patent. The early Power Designs models had "patent pending" screened on them, before "Uniply" appeared on most of the models. I am quoting from memory here, but IIRC the patent was awarded in 1971. However, the patent process (as no doubt some of you know firsthand) can be a long and tedious process, and it was likely even more so in the 1960's. My interviewee (henceforth called "Sonny" to give him a modicum of privacy) was very young when Silver first started working for PDI, but he seemed fairly certain that his father had been an employee of the company, rather than the owner or founder. He was unaware of his father's status as stated inventor of the Uniply, and it seems that since Silver was working for PDI at the time of the patent request, the company probably had some contract with him that specified that the inventions produced under their bannerhead was their property. This is, of course, something design engineers commonly sign off on in order to have access to advanced equipment, materials, and funding for their work.

At any rate, we can be fairly certain that Silver was working for PDI by the late 1950's. He was not a man who brought his work home with him, so to speak. I did ask whether Silver had been "chummy" with the other engineers or his boss, brought them home for dinner, etc. It seems Silver kept his home and work life separate. I had hoped to get the names of other engineers, techs, or coworkers that I could cross-reference and later possibly interview, but it doesn't seem that they were exactly fixtures in the Silver household.

I will toss up for consideration the possibility that Silver's work was considered of a sensitive nature, due to its applications and PDI's status as govt/mil/space contractor, and that PDI actively discouraged discussion of their products and designs outside of the laboratory. I do not have much to support this inference other than that I and others have been able to find almost nothing about the company itself. The only other name I have found in association with PDI is that of Melvin Becker, who seems to be associated with the change in location of manufacture to Connecticut. This latter was the place where the very-different-looking precision models seem to have first appeared (the 5020A and the 1001A are a couple of examples). These seem more similar to the 611X models produced by Hewlett Packard in form if not in function: Those cool looking concentric knobs must have appeared rather old-fashioned to eyes of that time period, and in the latter days of the Cold War period it was very important for any US tech company to keep up appearances of being on the knife edge of manufacturing and design. I do not know what happened to PDI by this time, but it appears that this change in format to a modern interface was not a "big hit" with industrial purchasers. Perhaps by then Power Designs was synonymous with tank-like appearance and build, and engineers familiar with earlier models were not as trusting of the new, plasticky models (with the older form factor, to boot: I've noticed that the newer models seem to be using the analog meter style that shows a vertical "arc" to the left of the needle, rather than the straight-up-and-down vertical meters. This was the older style of meter; If you search you can find some 5020's for example that have the arc meter style, but don't have the Palo Alto printing on them yet). Some have supposed elsewhere in this thread that this later incarnation of PDI was merely repackaging older stock and putting a new face on it to present the appearance of a newer, more advanced model. If true, this was unlikely to have gone unnoticed by the engineering community, and may have undercut the perception of the company's integrity, warranted or not! 

It is also significant that Silver himself had almost certainly moved on by that time anyway; I'll get to that in a moment, as I'm back to referencing the 1960's decade here. Sonny told me that his father was, unsurprisingly, a very smart guy. He volunteered that his school science projects he and his father built together were the marvel of the teachers and students (one of them was a lie detector; although I didn't ask Sonny exactly how it worked, I can only imagine the stunned faculty members watching Sonny walk into the science fair with a homemade polygraph in a box under under one arm). Silver was given to improvising solutions around the house, as well; Sonny recounted his father melting down fishing weights and pouring the molten lead into beer cans to create counterweights for a home designed pulley system Silver used to operate a door he had added to the house. His children were also recruited to assist with these home improvement projects. One of the stories I heard is that Silver decided he was going to do some excavating in his backyard and the kids were all handed shovels to dig it up by hand. I think it's notable that this guy was the sort of resourceful individual who wasn't going to hire in a bunch of outside operators or contractors to get things done; he did it himself or had his immediate family pitch in to help, and he could work with whatever was at hand to accomplish his goals. Sonny mentioned a picture of his father at work on circuits at his desk wearing a bow tie; while I haven't yet seen it, I hope to be able to post it here if and when I can get his permission to do so.

I asked Sonny about his own background and whether his father talked often about Power Designs. He told me that he was a child during the time period that Silver worked for PDI, so he didn't hear much about it. However, he did tell me that his father came home from work on more than one occasions very excitedly talking about the new laboratory he had access to. Apparently, they had a room where he could test the  circuits he was building at very low temperatures, and one can only assume that the circuits were working well under those conditions, because Silver seemed very happy about this development and new access, rather than frustrated or concerned.

For those of you who've read my earlier post, Silver was at some point awarded a gold pin for his contributions to the Apollo Program(s). Maybe he could not be honored in other, more public ways, because of the Space Race and the need for the US to keep its best engineers' identities a secret from foreign interests. I don't know. But again, the fact that Silver was working on power circuits in a cold lab suggests that this might well have been meant to simulate how the circuits might function in the extreme cold and vacuum of space. Sonny did say that he recalled his father saying that one of his designs actually went to the Moon. It would be almost comical to see a picture of Armstrong or Aldrin supported in the background by the image of the iconic PDI robot with his hand up, limiting current, and the words "patent pending" beneath.

I apologize for the fact that I have made so many guesses in this post. Should more information come to light (and I do hope it will!), I'll happily edit what I've written here. I have likely made some errors. I did my best to keep notes as I talked with Sonny, but the time periods between Silver's tenure at PDI and Venus Scientific isn't clear (may have even overlapped?). Sonny did volunteer that he'd see if he could find any of his father's stuff related to PDI, and asked me to update him as well. I think he was more than a little touched that so many people thought so highly of his father's work and designs (and I'll make one more guess; that for security reasons, among others, Sonny had never been told just how important his father was as an asset to the programs he worked on). I'm hoping that some of you will also continue the effort, as eas and Greg have, to bring the real story of PDI to light, and I will continue to post with any new info I can find myself. I also intend to send Sonny a copy of this thread so that he can see how this thread developed, from someone asking about a recommendation for a lab power supply, to almost a detective novel.

Thanks to all who have posted in this thread thus far.


 
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Offline Johnboy

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #887 on: November 10, 2019, 05:41:53 pm »
...And I'm aware I'm likely to get ripped apart for making so many guesses. Frankly, I don't care. You're not tearing me down by pointing out my mistakes or leaps of logic, you're helping out.

rsjsouza pointed out that there is a feeling of fishiness about PDI, and unfortunately, most of the evidence we have is that by omission, rather than having the duck in the hand.

Yet, I'll vouch for some of my guesses by summarizing a few things noted elsewhere in the thread, to save having to reread it in its entirety (although I don't discourage that at all!):

1. There was an [edited] discussion of why these low-power, highly stable precision units were necessary at that time and why they aren't widely produced anymore. Those of you who read it before the edits know what I'm referring to.

2. The units incorporating the Uniply design seemed to emphasize a main selling point of being able to do their own switching between ranges, "taking the place of multiple power supplies". One can see the potential value of a single unit being used to replace multiples in a situation where every ounce of weight has to be taken into account.

3. There is a documented story of Bob Pease being handed a Power Designs schematic that had "stumped" other engineers who'd been asked to look at it, and making the assertion that "you'll never understand how this works until you redraw this" (sic). Although it's likely that there were many different ways taught to sketch a design, I am vouching for the possibility that Power Designs product schematics might have been deliberately drawn in this way to prevent "the wrong eyes" from taking it in at first glance. It's also significant that so many of the manuals and schematics for these instruments are simply not available. Where did they go? Consigned? Locked away? Destroyed?

4. There seems to have been a retail consumer push at the end of the company's life, as evidenced by the picture of the color catalog. But what we don't see are consumer advertisements for the PDI products in magazines, or catalogs, of the earlier days. That doesn't mean they're not out there, and maybe the early PD stuff was so expensive that they didn't bother asking if Joe Blow was interested. Yet that is begging the question-- who were they really trying to sell these units to?

Hence all this guessing. I have more questions than answers, honestly.
 
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Offline dom0

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #888 on: November 10, 2019, 05:46:47 pm »
Quote
he did tell me that his father came home from work on more than one occasions very excitedly talking about the new laboratory he had access to. Apparently, they had a room where he could test the  circuits he was building at very low temperatures

I imagine most engineers would be excited to work on "space-electronics", in the 60s no less.

Quote
1. There was an [edited] discussion of why these low-power, highly stable precision units were necessary at that time and why they aren't widely produced anymore. Those of you who read it before the edits know what I'm referring to.

?

Quote
2. The units incorporating the Uniply design seemed to emphasize a main selling point of being able to do their own switching between ranges, "taking the place of multiple power supplies". One can see the potential value of a single unit being used to replace multiples in a situation where every ounce of weight has to be taken into account.

The uniply design is, as far as I can tell, very similar to something I came up for a 500 V lab supply. (It's not terribly complicated). This line of thought is a lot better under dynamic conditions than the stuff HP/Agilent used for automatic internal range switching, and of course way superior to anything using relays. These latter approaches are a bit like a programmer's view on circuit design: "Okay, my series pass element cannot take this load. So let's add something in front of it to deal with that."; the uniply design is the holistic approach "Okay, a single series pass element cannot take this load. What if I transpose a parallel, current sharing design to the voltage domain? A compound pass element with multiple inputs that by virtue of silicon uses the input to match the output?".

Quote
[weird schematics]

The inverted schematics, negative at the top, and positive at the bottom, with conventional current flow going upwards, were pretty common in the 60s. It also seemed to be somewhat common to "obfuscate" schematics in manuals and patents to make it less obvious how they work.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 05:53:49 pm by dom0 »
,
 
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Offline Johnboy

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #889 on: November 21, 2019, 08:18:28 pm »
Since PDI's production spanned multiple decades and included so many models, I feel that assembling a comprehensive timeline would be very helpful in facilitating further investigation. Forum member eas has already published a partial one:
https://techobsessed.net/power-designs/

In order to fill in the gaps, one of the things I think worth determining is whether the serial numbers on the individual models can tell us anything of import. Those of you who have done teardowns and looked at the date codes on internal components may be able to help by cross-referencing approximate year of the codes with the serial number of your unit to see whether there is a key of some kind. Specifically, one thing I'd like to know is whether we can discern what year the Palo Alto markings began to appear on the screen printing.

Here is a unit which recently sold on the American auction site, and which has some unusual features, based on the other units I've seen in this thread.
 
 
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Offline alextwin007

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #890 on: November 21, 2019, 09:35:12 pm »
That looks similar to the 4010 that I have, just the max current and voltage are different.
What I find very unusually is that it doesn't follow the normal naming convention that many of the other PD power supplies have.
If I get time I'll open up the 4010 I have and take a look, although since the 4010 is a rare model (looking through this thread I only found 1 other) there won't be many data points for it.
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Offline Johnboy

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #891 on: November 21, 2019, 10:40:03 pm »
Yes, yours seems to be one of the less-spotted ones (IIRC, it's the precision model used as a comparison in "The Art of Electronics" mentioned elsewhere in the thread). I see an inventory sticker which appears to read 1973 in the upper right corner, so we can safely assume it was built before that. Also, yours does not have the Palo Alto printing, unlike the C400 in the pic I attached above. Both have ovens.

I'm also attaching a picture of my own C500, which has no oven but is also lacking the Palo Alto printing. :-//
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 10:42:25 pm by Johnboy »
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #892 on: November 22, 2019, 06:40:09 am »
Yeah, the usual numbering is voltage followed by current. For example, 4010 is 40V, 1.0A. The 2005 is 20V, 0.5A.

With the C400 and C500, the voltage is 100, so they use C, which is 100 in Roman numerals, to save space. Clever, eh? Small high-voltage power supplies typically provide current in mA, so PD used mA in the model. Thus, C400 is 100V, 400mA and C500 is 100V, 500mA.

I believe the C400 is older than the C500 as the former has an ovenized reference, but the latter doesn't. Similarly, the 2005 has an ovenized reference and the 2005A doesn't.

It would be interesting to see what could be gleaned from serial numbers, including whether the numbers reset and, hence, end up telling us little.
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Offline Sparky

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #893 on: November 22, 2019, 06:52:05 am »
With the C400 and C500, the voltage is 100, so they use C, which is 100 in Roman numerals, to save space. Clever, eh?

Very clever! I think this is inside baseball type knowledge; only TEA-member will know!
Sparky
 
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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #894 on: November 22, 2019, 05:35:43 pm »
A TEAdvantage? :-DD
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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #895 on: November 22, 2019, 07:55:17 pm »
 

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #896 on: November 22, 2019, 08:39:58 pm »
Here is my contribution to the Power Designs, Inc model and serial number database.

Model        Serial #     Component Date       Status                       Location           Logo         Other
6050D       803035             1987                Operational                Westbury, NY   pd            Full re-cap
6150         410074             1984                Operational                NY / CA           pd            Partial re-cap
2005A       906027             1969                Operational                Westbury, NY   pd            Replaced C3
6050C       705017             1987                Operational                Westbury, NY   pd            Modified display, replaced C8
6050C       705038             1987                Operational                Westbury, NY   pd            Modified display, replaced C8
C500         605008             1985                Operational                Westbury, NY   pd            Original caps
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 08:43:09 pm by Barbouri »
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #897 on: November 22, 2019, 11:27:32 pm »
Thanks, Barbouri!

I see your 2005A does have an ovenized reference. I thought all the 2005A eliminated the oven. It'll be great to get all this info in one place to learn from the patterns.

Johnboy is making a new thread for collecting general (i.e., not just precision models) PD identities. I asked him to post a link here to the new thread and we can continue documenting over there.
TEA is the way. | TEA Time channel
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #898 on: November 23, 2019, 05:02:39 am »
The attached pictures of a 2005A (no longer in my possession) shows an ovenized version.  PO sticker on the back dates it to 1973 and there is a serial number to track that part down.

More grist for the patterning mill.
 
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Offline HalFoster

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Re: POWER DESIGNS PRECISION POWER SUPPLIES
« Reply #899 on: November 25, 2019, 12:51:47 am »
The collection so far... I'll get the SNs together and post them and other details if it will help.  I love the PD supplies and would also like to find out more of the history of the company as well as document their products.

Hal

« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 12:53:54 am by HalFoster »
--- If it isn't broken... Fix it until it is ---
 
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