Keysight Scopmonth, Taxes when winning. Marketing-Bullshit?

[Augustus]

They are handling it totally proper and above board. Keysight offered a contest to give away scopes, not scopes and cash for taxes. If they gave away scopes AND paid the taxes, they would have to pay even more than the tax of the scope to cover the tax on the extra cash! FUCKING REDICULOUS

Keysight runs a promotional ad-campaign and has set up a certain budget for that. Lets say 500 Grand. What they actually did is: Take the entire 500 Grand an spend all the money on the most expensive scopes they can collect for it and let the "lucky" winner suffer all the taxes he may have to pay to get the "prize". Not able to pay a few thousand Bucks to get your "prize"? Well, not our problem... Instead, they could have spend, lets say just 70% of their ad budget on the scopes and save 30% to cover the taxes for the winners. This way, both sides would be happy. Maybe it's really a cultural thing but to have to pay something (in this case a few thousend bucks, this is huge, if not impossible for a student or hobbyist) to receive a prize is an alien concept to German citicens. And certainly doesn't justify all the hate thrown at Sebastian. Because, in my opinion, it is Keysight who handels this very unprofessional.

Just my 2c....

[TheSteve]

The rules of the contest were there before he entered, it was his choice and still is. Keysight has done nothing wrong. So your two cents was certainly wasted.

[Towger]

They don't need to use dealers, they have their own offices. They just need to ship to one of their own offices within the EC area, the local office pays the VAT at the base cost of the scope. The Keysight office is then able to offset it against their own VAT returns.  Lets face it on an expensive scope the base price ( BOM, R&D, labour and shipping) is a fraction of the retail price.

VAT unlike other sales taxes is a Value Added Tax, as each seller in the chain adds value, tax is charged on it, which is then offset (or refunded) against the VAT they pay.

The problem for a private individual is they cannot offset the VAT and on an item comming into tbe country, if the customs documents state the full recommended retail value, this is that will be used to calculate the VAT charged to them.

[Howardlong]

And certainly doesn't justify all the hate thrown at Sebastian.

And what is your opinion of an individual who accused a well meaning and very generous donor of ethnic discrimination, being Nigerian scammers, and ruining his life?

The hate is coming from Sebastian himself, and the responses wholly predictable as a result.

You really couldn't make this up!

[hs3]

There seems to be some confusion about how importing Keysight stuff coming from Malaysia for example works.

Based on my limited experience if you get something from Keysight from Malaysia to Europe it first comes as part of larger cargo shipment to Amsterdam for example and from there the package might get routed to you. Or it might first go to your local distributor who then sends it to you. In any case you are not personally the one handling the importing or paying for the import fees and duty for example. So from the buyer side it is the same as if you were getting it from your local distributor even if it might originate from Malaysia.

Of course that was just based on my limited experience and may not apply here.

[Brumby]

Let's clarify a few things....

As I see it, we have questions on financial liabilities of three broad types:

Income tax/Gambling tax.
The fact that any US winners are going to have to face income tax on any prize is no great surprise to anyone.  I can recall hearing of financial horror stories that hearken back to the early days of TV quiz shows where someone wins a car - and then goes through income tax hell.  Does this happen in other countries?  It seems the Netherlands has a gambling tax - that is just as inevitable as income tax is in the US.

Sales Tax/V.A.T./etc.
These are the local/state/federal taxes on goods and services on any item - whether imported or not.  I believe there are a lot of 'flavours' of this type of tax and sometimes there may be multiple ones applied to a single purchase, but I group them here for the sake of simplicity.  I think most, if not all, of the world has to deal with these - but do they apply for winning a prize?

Customs Duty
The 'border crossing' tax on imports.  As I understand it, these tariffs are (theoretically) intended to help support local industry by making competitive imports less financially appealing.  While there may be international standardisation on tariff codes, the actual rates charged are not - and are up to each jurisdiction to set.  The liability falls on the importer - but who will be the importer?


While there are clearly some who have had some experience with these, there seems to be a lot of hypothesising going on here - and before we get too carried away (or has that boat sailed?) I would like to ask - Has any winner actually contacted Keysight to be appraised of the delivery process and then taken that information to someone in their country who can - with some authority - advise them of the ACTUAL financial liability?

I feel there's more "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" here than actual figures being discussed.

[PA0PBZ]

In the Netherlands we have wat is called "kansspelbelasting", betting/gambling tax, 29% of the money or economical value of the prize, and can be paid either by the one giving the prize or the receiver. This is on top of eventual VAT and customs duty, but luckily we have no income tax on prizes 

[Brumby]

In the Netherlands we have wat is called "kansspelbelasting", betting/gambling tax, 29% of the money or economical value of the prize, and can be paid either by the one giving the prize or the receiver. This is on top of eventual VAT and customs duty, but luckily we have no income tax on prizes 

I have added this to the first category above, as it would seem to be just as inevitable as income tax in the US.

[metalphreak]

I just cannot fathom the arrogance of someone entering a competition to win a $20,000 prize, with the full knowledge in the T&Cs that they would have to pay import duty/taxes etc, and then has the audacity to have a whinge about it? Give the scope to someone more deserving.

[cidcorp]

This whole thread makes me sad  .  The whole world deals with VAT / Taxes / Duties, it's a fact of life.  It is sad that winning such a nice piece of equipment
potentially ends with the winner selling it to cover any financial obligations due to the win, but that is the way it is. Personally no matter how you look at it you still won something.
Sell it at 75% it MSRP, new in box on eBay - pay the taxes/etc then use the difference to go out an buy a nice gently used model.

Two things you can be absolutely sure of... eventual death...  and taxes (this from a Canadian )

Oh and the BBQ roasting thing bothered me as well, I do 'suspect' that the unit was a faulty one... or at least that's what I'm telling myself.  But remember it's their
scope and they and do whatever they want with it (well except send it to you tax free lol  )

[zapta]

This thread confirms to me once more that operating a global company is terribly complex.

Keysight on its part could restrict this raffle to countries in which it has authorized dealers and provide the prizes locally import and sales taxes paid.

[Bud]

Honestly, i did not get the message the barbeque clip tried to convey.

On the other hand, my observation is Keysight is trying to reach small people much more agressively (in a good way) then Agilent. I started seing Reps trying to contact me, keep in touch, sending information on free seminars, they sent me a free book on spectrum analysis, i did not see that with Agilent. Perhaps there was a change at Keysight in that regard?

[rx8pilot]

Keysight could not hope to be profitable on hobbyists. That's not to say they don't want hobby money, but its a fart in a dust storm in the big scheme of things. The purpose of a promotion is to gain customers and encourage existing customers. If I were a Keysight employee in charge of this contest, I would not be all that concerned with someone not being able to cover the tax obligation since they are not even a potential customer for these prizes. As cold as it sounds, my small business has to be careful not to attract a customer that cannot afford my products. Those 'near customers' are very expensive. Keysight is spending major money and expects new, long term customers as a result.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

[nctnico]

Keysight could not hope to be profitable on hobbyists. That's not to say they don't want hobby money, but its a fart in a dust storm in the big scheme of things.

Don't rule out the small companies and one-man-bands who certainly have the money for a MSO2000 or MSO3000 series (not that those are good value for money).

[rx8pilot]

Not at all, I am a small one-man-band. I may finance a $20k+ scope if I don't win the contest. I suspect that purchase, which is huge for me, is not even a footnote of a daily sales report.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

[rsjsouza]

Despite the hobbyist market is a blip in their sales figures, their shotgun strategy is surely needed to gain mind share. Also, hobbyists and small companies can certainly influence their employers/contractors.

With the spinoff and the new name, people involved with electronics but not actively following the T&M market have a greater chance to hear about a company called "Keysight" that sells oscilloscopes and is giving away valuable test gear - only to realize they were the old Agilent. It takes time and money to etch the new name into the minds of potential customers...

I think that a desirable side effect for them is if they can pull someone away from the competition (especially in the educational market), which could represent a few years worth of brand loyalty.

[rx8pilot]

I would agree with that.

Having a stable and solid position in education is important. When the young graduate and start buying or recommending for a commercial use - Keysight wants to be high on that list. I would expect a company like Keysight to be hoping for customers that last decades, you are right that mind-share is an important part of that.

[nctnico]

Not at all, I am a small one-man-band. I may finance a $20k+ scope if I don't win the contest. I suspect that purchase, which is huge for me, is not even a footnote of a daily sales report.

True but 100 of those sales start to add up. If Keysight looses one big client they may look at a similar loss of revenue. When having 100 clients with much less business it doesn't hurt so much to loose one customer.

[Brumby]

Despite the hobbyist market is a blip in their sales figures, their shotgun strategy is surely needed to gain mind share. Also, hobbyists and small companies can certainly influence their employers/contractors.

With the spinoff and the new name, people involved with electronics but not actively following the T&M market have a greater chance to hear about a company called "Keysight" that sells oscilloscopes and is giving away valuable test gear - only to realize they were the old Agilent. It takes time and money to etch the new name into the minds of potential customers...

I think that a desirable side effect for them is if they can pull someone away from the competition (especially in the educational market), which could represent a few years worth of brand loyalty.

+1

Interest in products comes from individuals, as does the purchase approval.  IMHO, any promotional campaign will be more effective if it is targeted to the individual cogs rather than the corporate machine.

[Brumby]

.... and there's probably a good reason why they won't - but could not Keysight ship the winning product to their office within the jurisdiction of the winner - and they could then have a local presentation?  This not only gives separation of the financial details from the local distributor, but allows for the promotion of a tangible presence of the manufacturer - put some 'local' faces out there ... and maybe get a spot in some local press.

[ProBang2]

BTW:

Has someone recognized:
The thread opener had deleted his postings (arond 20:00 PM CET, Monday evening).
Only 3 post are left...

[rx8pilot]

BTW:

Has someone recognized:
The thread opener had deleted his postings (arond 20:00 PM MEZ, Monday evening).
Only 3 post are left...

That is a shitty move. All these people are spending time to have a conversation, and the OP announces that all the effort was a total waste.
I should have known better from the beginning - it started off as something I should not have bothered with. Lesson learned. Moving on.

[Howardlong]

BTW:

Has someone recognized:
The thread opener had deleted his postings (arond 20:00 PM MEZ, Monday evening).
Only 3 post are left...

That is a shitty move. All these people are spending time to have a conversation, and the OP announces that all the effort was a total waste.
I should have known better from the beginning - it started off as something I should not have bothered with. Lesson learned. Moving on.

Indeed, I can imagine the OP is now rubbing his hands with glee on his windfall. A shame the alleged serial patent holder could not engage in a simple dose of patience rather than go off on some bizarre tirade.

Coincidental I'm sure, but isn't there another serial patent holder familiar to the forum who despite their various claims of experience also has difficulty in organising a piss up in a brewery?

[Fred27]

I really hope it's because he finally declined the prize. I'd hate to think that that ungrateful douchebag's whining paid off and somehow Keysight found a way to make things alright in his deluded little self-entitled world.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[continuo]

So what happened? Did they respond and got it sorted for him? Has he declined the prize? Why all the editing?