Keysight New instruments

[jjoonathan]

Arguments about decimal notation are just a sign that the units aren't confusing enough. We need a multimeter that measures in Galvanis, defined as the amount of potential required to make a frog leg twitch.

[bd139]

That begs the question: where do you get your "frog leg standard reference" from? 

[2N3055]

Arguments about decimal notation are just a sign that the units aren't confusing enough. We need a multimeter that measures in Galvanis, defined as the amount of potential required to make a frog leg twitch.

African or European?

[nctnico]

Truth is, you're right, these devices have graphical screens, displayed values could be made more human readable. And, just to be clear, in math we write numbers with comma as a decimal point, and spaces between groups of 3 digits.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that your country is the centre of the world. Comma for the decimal point is not used everywhere, it's mostly european thing. Not in the biggest places where electroncis are developed, like the US, UK, Japan, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and Korea:

Well... without ASML (a European company) most of the electronics companies would produce nothing at all 

And calling using 'gaps' a European writing style    Using gaps is a very natural way to divide long numbers (or strings of numbers / letters) into groups which are easy to process. Adding gaps (spaces) is the first thing I do when I deal with a long string of text in order to make it more suitable for visual analysis.

[jjoonathan]

That begs the question: where do you get your "frog leg standard reference" from? 

African or European?

See, it's working already! You don't need to worry about how to separate all of your significant digits if you don't have multiple significant digits.

[floobydust]

34461A - you can program the Numeric Separator (comma,space,none) and decimal point symbol.

These multimeters are a bit funny that temperature is only displayed with 1 sig dig "024.9C" where's all the rest of the digits, it's just reading a thermistor.
Same for diode voltage drop, usually 3 sig digs like my 40 year old 3-1/2 digit multimeter shows. No good when comparing die temperatures.
No mho's or siemens, I've never used those. Galvani's might be useful. The frog is likely LM399 species.

[wizard69]

I'm a little disappointed in the DMM. 
For one why such a low CAT rating especially for an EDU targeted meter.   T

Second,; the diode test seems to be extremely limited for a meter designed for 2021 with all the types of diodes that exist now.   Of course this is based on reading a manual with lots of typo's and mistakes so maybe the diode function is more robust.   The manual implies 0.8 volts for the high end.

Third; apparently no RTD functionality.   This would seemingly be a no brainer for a 5.5 digit meter with 4 wire capability.

Fourth; I'm not sure why one would offer a fixed continuity function on a bench meter.

I actually find the power supply to be more interesting if a bit expensive.   In any event here is to seeing more technical data real soon now.

EDU33212A Dual Channel Function Generator; $915 US List Price
EDU36311A DC Power Supply; $838 US List Price
EDU34450A Digital Multimeter; $696 US List Price
EDUX1052G Dual Channel Oscilloscope; $722 US List Price

How is the function gen the most expensive thing in that lineup? 

Well we don't have any specifications yet, but its a big price down compared to the 33500 series. If it carries most of their capabilities then the price is excellent.

More info on the EDU33212A here...

EDU33210 Series Trueform Arbitrary Waveform Generators User’s Guide
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU33212-90002.pdf

Also:

EDU34450A 5½ Digit Digital Multimeter User’s Guide
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU34450-90002.pdf

EDU36311A Triple Output Programmable DC Power Supply
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/EDU36311-90002.pdf

[wizard69]

It is a nice function generator!

As for the scope it has gotten to the point that making these is very possible with off the shelf parts.   At time I wonder why scopes are so expensive.  In a nut shell they are not much more than a very low end PC with A to D capability.

EDU33212A Dual Channel Function Generator; $915 US List Price
EDU36311A DC Power Supply; $838 US List Price
EDU34450A Digital Multimeter; $696 US List Price
EDUX1052G Dual Channel Oscilloscope; $722 US List Price

How is the function gen the most expensive thing in that lineup? 

[SilverSolder]

[...]  At time I wonder why scopes are so expensive.  In a nut shell they are not much more than a very low end PC with A to D capability. [...]

That may apply to a very basic scope.  I guess Rigol et al set the "floor" for what a workable basic scope can be made and sold for,  unless you include various handheld "phone format" devices that can be even cheaper.

[2N3055]

Truth is, you're right, these devices have graphical screens, displayed values could be made more human readable. And, just to be clear, in math we write numbers with comma as a decimal point, and spaces between groups of 3 digits.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that your country is the centre of the world. Comma for the decimal point is not used everywhere, it's mostly european thing. Not in the biggest places where electroncis are developed, like the US, UK, Japan, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and Korea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator

Didn't see this comment, sorry...

Heard of SI system of units ?

https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/checklist.html

Writing numbers with spacing in groups of 3 is SI convention. For ease of conversion in SI units. Choice of decimal comma or decimal point for radix (decimal separator)  is optional..

#16
Digit
spacing   The digits of numerical values having more than four digits on either side of the decimal marker are separated into groups of three using a thin, fixed space counting from both the left and right of the decimal marker. Commas are not used to separate digits into groups of three.
proper:
15 739.012 53
improper:
15739.01253
15,739.012 53

You misunderstood, it wasn't discussion about choice of the decimal separator. It was really about spaces instead of commas for digit grouping. I simply stated that we comma with spaces for completeness.

I know what janks use, computers where US format only for me and many here for date, time, and numbers for years before they reached the standards for codepages that included our country.. We have same number, date and time standard sa Germany (DIN was translated and adopted as JUS in 1952, in former Jugoslavija, together with many other things) but I, and many others in my generation prefered English books, software, OS etc.. So before CP852, we all used US layout and language on all computers.

[bd139]

We used spaces in finance these days. It’s less ambiguous than comma, period if you’re scanning through or glancing at the data leading to less mistakes. Only decimal suffix is actually a tangible mark.

This is used globally across the three continents we operate in.

[nctnico]

It is a nice function generator!

As for the scope it has gotten to the point that making these is very possible with off the shelf parts.   At time I wonder why scopes are so expensive.

Firmware. The firmware of a modern day digital oscilloscope is incredibly complex and I dare say it is very likely the most complex kind of firmware you'll find on any piece of test equipment because an oscilloscope has become an extremely versatile tool. All this complexity comes with a massive investment in development time.

[Fungus]

I went on that rant a long time ago, ended up at the SI or Metric Committee and gave up there. Euro writing using gaps or dots instead of commas always baffled me.
These new instruments are not metrology-grade. It's weird to see (out of the user's manual) "+3.000 7" the gap drives me nuts. Or "00.010 7" or "0.001 75" or "000.037"
Please show me more zeros, oh autoranging too dumb to change units multimeter. 37mohms I can deal with- even though the multimeter's resolution hits the floor those some functions. If I'm manual ranging, why not show the appropriate range units (u,m,k etc.)? Instead it's padded with zeros. Minor gripe.

"Gaps" is actually the agreed standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator#Current_standards

in math we write numbers with comma as a decimal point, and spaces between groups of 3 digits. But space is not full digit space, it's just tiny gap to be visible but not to break number as a  whole.

Commas for decimal separator used to be "preferred" but not any more (see link above).

In my life I have to switch between dots and commas depending on who I'm writing for.

In Spain there's also a lot of people (accountants?) who use apostrophe for decimal separator. I think the Germans do it, too.

spaces between groups of 3 digits. But space is not full digit space, it's just tiny gap to be visible but not to break number as a whole.

What if you're using a monospaced font?

[KE5FX]

Spaces (and periods) are the only way to go!   

[tszaboo]

Third; apparently no RTD functionality.   This would seemingly be a no brainer for a 5.5 digit meter with 4 wire capability.

This is 100% artificial software limit. The 34460A also doesnt measure RTD, while the 34465A does. Or it doesn't do trend chart. Why? Spend more money that's why.

For one why such a low CAT rating especially for an EDU targeted meter.   T

You dont really need or want high CAT rating in a bench instrument. You will only ever meet fused connections. With a handheld DMM, you might check the fusebox in your house, but a desk DMM is on your desk. I dont think they should spend money to fulfill very specialty needs.

I know what janks use, computers where US format only for me and many here for date,

Dont even get me started on dates. IDK how we got to the 21 century, without standardizing on dates. ISO 8601
Everyone acts like some sort of moron, that cannot remember how to write dates correctly. February 28 '21 and other moronic way of writing dates. And then you take the canned beans in your kitchen, look at the expiration date, and you see 19.02.22. OK so it either expired in 2019 or its OK for another year, because entire countries are ignorantly make up their rules on how to write dates. My favourite guesswork is in Belgium, where sometimes it is written the french way, sometimes the dutch way, sometimes they make their own way, and have to explain it on the label in 3 languages. And none of them is the correct way of writing date.

Most things have service manuals. Getting at them is always the problem.

Few people ever unboxed a 3458A. So it comes with a hardcover binder, containing programming manual, service manual, and datasheet.

[Berni]

Spaces (and periods) are the only way to go!   

I agree, space digit grouping is best. It is the least confusing method of digit grouping while still easily letting you see what SI units you are looking at.

Having no grouping is also okay, even if a bit annoying. But the absolute worst is when a multimeter shows you that you are measuring "1,112.744 Ohm" as things like the good ol HP
34401A like to do. You look at that and go okay thats 1 Ohm and some change... wait.. no that's the comma so 1 MOhm... No Ooooh right that is 1 KOhm. Using a thousand separator character that is almost the same as a decimal separator character is a horrible idea period (Heh... get it? Okay il stop now) Luckily there is a setting in the HP 34401A that turns off thousands separation completely.

[pe1oxp]

I can appreciate the new kind of housing, it saves a lot of space on the workbench (depth).
Prices are better for hobby purposes but what when Keysight doesn't sell to private persons anymore...

[SilverSolder]

Spaces (and periods) are the only way to go!   

I agree, space digit grouping is best. It is the least confusing method of digit grouping while still easily letting you see what SI units you are looking at.

Having no grouping is also okay, even if a bit annoying. But the absolute worst is when a multimeter shows you that you are measuring "1,112.744 Ohm" as things like the good ol HP
34401A like to do. You look at that and go okay thats 1 Ohm and some change... wait.. no that's the comma so 1 MOhm... No Ooooh right that is 1 KOhm. Using a thousand separator character that is almost the same as a decimal separator character is a horrible idea period (Heh... get it? Okay il stop now) Luckily there is a setting in the HP 34401A that turns off thousands separation completely.

When you work with big numbers, it makes life much more difficult when there are no thousands separators.

E.g. what number is easier to digest for your lottery win:  $20000000 or  $20,000,000  ?

Using space as a separator is very wasteful on a 7 segment display, I'm guessing that's why commas (and periods) became popular.

The real problem is that different parts of the world use different standards...   an irritating fact of life, unfortunately.   Just as irritating as all the different date formats in use.  12/2/2021...   is that Dec 2 or Feb 12?  Sigh...   

[exe]

My preferred style would be "short half-rack". Like, Siglent stuff. It nicely fits my table, stackable, and not too deep.

[SilverSolder]

My preferred style would be "short half-rack". Like, Siglent stuff. It nicely fits my table, stackable, and not too deep.

For power supply and signal generator yes, but a scope?

[nctnico]

My preferred style would be "short half-rack". Like, Siglent stuff. It nicely fits my table, stackable, and not too deep.

For power supply and signal generator yes, but a scope?

Yes. If a scope is deep enough I like to stack equipment on top.

[Fungus]

Yes. If a scope is deep enough I like to stack equipment on top.

If only somebody could invent "adjustable shelving".

[Berni]

My MSO6000 scope is that sort of deep design. So i do like putting things on top of it. The only thing is that the width is a weird non rack size multiple (much like a lot of other scopes), so it makes it more difficult to fully utilize the top of it with other gear. In my case i found out that one half rack wide multimeter and one Weller soldering station is the same width as the scope.

The new skinny scopes are mostly useful for a more portable use case where you just grab its handle and plonk it down on any desk. Leaving plenty of room on the desk to work in front of it. While as soon as you have a large amount of test gear stacked up on a dedicated spot on the bench the skinny form factor doesn't really save much. It is very likely that you have at least one large deep piece of gear around, stuff like bench DMMs or PSUs. So you can stack those into one neat tower to have it conveniently in one place. Sure the first deep half rack wide unit takes up more space, but you can easily stack 3 such units on top of each other, at what point the amount of desk space taken up by a piece of equipment on average becomes the same or even less than one of those skinny scopes. If you don't have the desk space for a deep instrument, simply pull the desk away from the wall a bit and put shelves up. Giving you lots of desk space while having 10 different instruments at reach ready to go is not a problem.

[wizard69]

[quote author=NANDBlog
You dont really need or want high CAT rating in a bench instrument. You will only ever meet fused connections. With a handheld DMM, you might check the fusebox in your house, but a desk DMM is on your desk. I dont think they should spend money to fulfill very specialty needs.
[/quote]

Actually I do want better CAT ratings on bench meters.   I may be 60 but I still remember the stupid things students do in tech classes.   The idea that they are marketing this as a solution for education is what prompted my post.

However in industry, at least the one i work in, "bench" meters do go out onto the plant floor very regularly.   In this case they are either used for calibration+validation or in some cases diagnostics.   Generally they should never get close to high energy circuits but it does happen.   Recent enforcement of regulations for arc flash safety has equipment coming in such that the process control stuff is separated from the heavy 3 phase stuff, usually in separate cabinets.  That makes the meter use "safer" but a better CAT rating would be very welcomed. 

Further if you are at the bench you may have three phase hardware you are working on.   This honestly doesn't happen much today due to the lack of time which leads to a lot of "stuff" going into the recycle bin.   I'm not real thrilled about this but there is little I can do about staffing because personnel says they can't find candidates.

As for safety I'm not sure how it became a specialty need.   Also fused connections are not a guarantee of safety.   I've seen some strange things over the years when it comes to what appeared to be properly installed hardware.

[wizard69]

Yes. If a scope is deep enough I like to stack equipment on top.

If only somebody could invent "adjustable shelving".

Better patent that idea quick.

As for stacking I never really liked it because the minute you need to pull an instrument or just move it around you run into a lot of frustration.   A shelf per layer might not work in every case but it is simple to implement.   I can imagine though people not wanting to spend $100 on shelving to place their $20 000 of equipment on.

Call me old fashion but I really liked the old Tektronix approach with the TM500/5000 series.   I could see a similar approach these days with a much smaller card format.   Select a suitable vertical height and then allocate horizontal on a settled upon module width increment.   That would allow for very high instrument density on the bench.