Keysight Scary Letter

[soldar]

It’s basic commercial law. Go looky go findy. I’m not your consultant.

Of course, of course. First it was "eBay terms are clear and they even have lawyers" and now it's "eBay's terms are not worth the paper they are written on because it is basic commercial law".  And I guess now they don't have lawyers. Of course.

Forgive me if I find your arguments somewhat weak and not convincing. Unless you can find some good citations I am going with what eBay says.

E.T.A.: What Fraser said.

[jjoonathan]

At least there's no question about the validity of the campaign now.

   I completely disagree. The complete lack of any follow up response from HP or their attorney

Complete lack of any followup? I was able to get in touch with both Outback and Durie Tangrie by phone within hours, and they told me not to expect formal next steps until they had finished the "track down equipment" phase.

We have an upper bound on how long they expect the "track down equipment" phase to take: I promised to keep the equipment off the market for 6 months as a courtesy and asked if that jibed with their schedule. They expected it to be more than enough.

[bd139]

Replying to both Fraser and soldar...

That was handled how it should have been. Any threats, police.

However I’ve had eBay directly cough up themselves immediately after quoting CRA 2015 at them to the tune of £300 over the last couple of years. Firstly because in a four party agreement, one party (Argos) failed and they were not subcontracted by me but the intermediatory (eBay). Secondly because the seller did not respond and provided a fake tracking ID. They were not responsive to my complaints suggesting I take it up with the seller. A letter headed reminder from the legal firm I was working for at the time was sent to them and they responded within 24 hours with a complete refund.

The problem is regardless of what eBay say they are, their entire business swings on ignorance of legislation designed to protect the buyer. And they know that very well. A contract can be written which is contrary to statutory law but that doesn’t mean that it is applicable, just people who read it think it is. That’s SOP in 2018. Apple do it with their warranty claims process as well. Their lawyers know this. The terms are clear. But that doesn’t affect your rights (unless you live somewhere with poor consumer rights)

[soldar]

You ever heard of Preponderance of the Evidence? Good, because I just talked to her and she told me she ain't pointing in your direction.

[bd139]

This isn’t a trial so that’s not an issue

[Stray Electron]

At least there's no question about the validity of the campaign now.

   I completely disagree. The complete lack of any follow up response from HP or their attorney

Complete lack of any followup? I was able to get in touch with both Outback and Durie Tangrie by phone within hours, and they told me not to expect formal next steps until they had finished the "track down equipment" phase.

We have an upper bound on how long they expect the "track down equipment" phase to take: I promised to keep the equipment off the market for 6 months as a courtesy and asked if that jibed with their schedule. They expected it to be more than enough.

   AND, you're the first person that has come on this forum and said that they actually got some kind of response from HP or their "representative".  This discussion has been going on for weeks and no one has told the buyers anything beyond what was in the initial letter.  That's a huge failure on HP's part IMO.  Also the last post on here regarding contact with Outback was they they said "Contact HP" and nothing else.

   You may be willing to wait and I have no plans to sell any equipment but OTOH I'd not going to have my hands tied for the next six? months while waiting for HP or their representatives to get their act together.  That should have been done before they contacted anyone.  Again that shows a total lack of professionalism IMO. 

[zitt]

I think it curious that you feel eBay is a necessary path for communication.  EBay proclaims that it is just a venue and that the transaction is between the Seller and the Buyer.  If anything, the communication from Outback would carry the authority, not from eBay - at least that's how I see it.

If it's a seller on Ebay; Ebay is the ONLY method of communication - Not 100% sure but I'd be surprised if Ebay didn't state that in their TOS.

The same world that accepts a fax as a legal document - and has done for many, many years.  Do you have any bills sent to you via email?  Does the date of those count as official notification?  I kinda think so.

You are entitled to act in whatever manner you see fit - but I question the wisdom of this attitude.

No; all of my bills are paper. (old fashioned)
With all the princes in Nigeria wanting to give me a million dollars; Email is *not* a legal document. Are you really surprised by this attitude or are you just nieve? Up until this thread I didn't even know whom "outback" was... I now know they are the sellers of the BK instrument I bought. So; yeah, I'm more than a little surprised and question the "validity" of getting a legal sounding email (without physical letter followup) form a "lawyer" claiming to be part of Keysight. There's more than enough WTF to go around here.=

No; I haven't gotten any registered letter from these jokers.

So I would be out all of the time that I searched for the item, my expenses purchasing it and having it shipped to me, the cost of cleaning and repairing and calibrating it, the costs of manuals and probes, the time that I invested in learning how to use it, etc etc. In short, I see NO benefit to cooperating with this inquiry

This guy gets it.
More importantly; I'm not going to admit I have something or that I won't sell it to the next person. Why would I do that? I'm not going to do the leg work for something they haven't even bothered to send a physical letter on. Now that I find out the communication is a black hole.

Maybe I should call them from a blocked cell phone... or my IP phone... to have a short verbal discussion with them. 
Curiosity is definitely interesting to me now... but I just feel like it's a lot of time that is going to end up being nothing other than an eventual sales call.

[Brumby]

So I would be out all of the time that I searched for the item, my expenses purchasing it and having it shipped to me, the cost of cleaning and repairing and calibrating it, the costs of manuals and probes, the time that I invested in learning how to use it, etc etc. In short, I see NO benefit to cooperating with this inquiry

This guy gets it.

There's one big assumption in there - that compensation will be less than the value (to them) represented by the bit of kit they acquired.  Sure, the concept of "made whole" is a bit nebulous until a firm offer is put on the table, but I think dismissing this purely on speculation is dumb.  I know I'd like to know what was on offer before digging in my heels.

There is one aspect which I can understand, though: Making good on the promise.  An attractive offer can be made, but if it isn't delivered, then that would be painful.  The good news is - if that were to happen, then you could share that fact here.  That would not be one bit of PR that Keysight would like in the slightest - and I just can't imagine Keysight letting it go that far in the first place.

[Miti]

I wasn't expecting this show to last this long. I'm almost out of popcorn...

[plurn]

... When they wanted to upgrade their old computer they needed to complete destroy their hard drive to be sure that no one could possibly recover the data off of it.  I advised them to take the drive out and chop it up with an axe.  The owner called a few days later and thanked me for that advice, she said that she was able to rid her herself all all of her frustrations that she's ever had with that computer while smashing the hard drive to itty bitty pieces! ...

Helping you out since you neglected to include the obligatory link to the office space printer scene.

[mikeselectricstuff]

There is one aspect which I can understand, though: Making good on the promise.  An attractive offer can be made, but if it isn't delivered, then that would be painful.  The good news is - if that were to happen, then you could share that fact here.  That would not be one bit of PR that Keysight would like in the slightest - and I just can't imagine Keysight letting it go that far in the first place.

That's simple - state that you will consider any offer a legally binding contract, so if they don't follow through you have legal recourse.
Or make any exchange via a 3rd-party escrow.

[Brumby]

That's simple - state that you will consider any offer a legally binding contract, so if they don't follow through you have legal recourse.
Or make any exchange via a 3rd-party escrow.

The cynics might say that's easier said than done.  Indeed, getting such things in writing is one hurdle.  Chasing them up afterwards if they do not perform is another.

One might expect any such offers from Keysight would be honoured without necessitating enforcement actions - but I will admit such a belief is my personal expectation.  I have no actual examples to cite.

[Neomys Sapiens]

Indeed. You just get buggered for inheritance tax instead (this is a battle I have already fought once)

A good reference to HMRC is the dystopian state in the film “Brazil”

Nowadays, not many days pass without that film coming to my mind at least once.
I only say 'beauty parlor'.

[jsantoro]

I just received the same letter for a HP3561 I purchased a year ago. I sold it this past spring. I am not a vendor and keep no records of sales.  And that's what I will tell Keysight or the lawyers if they call me. This thing is 30 years old, must be some contract thing they are trying to check the boxes on.

[zitt]

Update:
I just got the physical letter... sent from CA on Feb 6th... with the letter stating a response requested by Feb 7th.
Of course; it was a stamped letter; not certified.

Keystone cops I tell ya.

[Yansi]

Haha, then in your replay, give them also a response request by a date and give them the same time, as the gave you.

AS seen from this topic, they are playing a dead bug and not responding.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

AS seen from this topic, they are playing a dead bug and not responding.

I just don't have anything I can add at this point...

We're not going to go crazy on people, it won't hurt you to respond. But, it could definitely help!

[nctnico]

@Daniel: just wondering how many pieces of equipment need to be traced... 10? 100? 1000? If it is several hundred pieces or more I can imagine it will take time to get a response out to individual people.

[tggzzz]

AS seen from this topic, they are playing a dead bug and not responding.

I just don't have anything I can add at this point...

We're not going to go crazy on people, it won't hurt you to respond. But, it could definitely help!

Caveat: I don't know anything of this situation.

When Bill and Dave were around,  doing then right thing for customers was embedded in the HP way. That kind of corporate culture is extremely difficult to change,. Unless there is a solid reason to believe otherwise, I would take Keysight's statements at face value.

Now I am only too aware that princess Fiorina deleted the HPWay and replaced it with the incomprehensible Rules of the Garage, but there was an old saying "The real HP is alive and well , and is called Agilent".

[Brumby]

I don't think we can expect Daniel to provide a whole lot of information.  I'm sure he is aware of some facts - but possibly not a big picture - that "need to know" thing.  Whatever he does know is quite probably locked behind a razor wire fence of confidentiality.

I think the best way to look at the situation is to think of the gear as coming from some DoD contractor on a super secret project (I have no idea if this is true - but it's a useful viewpoint).  In such a case, the powers that be are probably uncomfortable that the campaign is even being discussed here and that Daniel has probably only been "cleared" to confirm the campaign is real in order to help it achieve its goal.  I have little doubt there will be someone monitoring the EEVblog forum - not to facilitate the campaign, but to ensure no breaches of security are made.

Certainly, the response time leaves much to be desired - but who of us that have worked with large corporate and/or government entities haven't seen some processes run at such a speed that it makes glacial movement look like white water rafting?  Certainly if the number of items is large, then that could help explain things - but so, too, could the process itself if there were specific checks and balances.  I would not be at all surprised if each letter and email sent out were reviewed by a censor before release - and if that means reading dozens of identical form letters, then that's what will happen.


The simple fact of the matter is if you want a concrete understanding of what's going on - then that's not going to happen ... here or anywhere else.  You can't get too precious about secrecy - it exists for a reason.  My guess is, if you want to know what sort of deal the "make whole" offer is all about, then you are going to have to be one of the people who have been approached - and - you will have to respond to Keysight.  Also, I would not be at all surprised that those who do make contact and receive an offer will be required to keep any details confidential - so the rest of us aren't going to find out.  I can live with that - even though I'm as curious as the next person.

Why I would follow through:
 1. The fact that people have been approached means that they have some leverage in this situation
 2. It's been said more than once that the effort will be worth it and if I were presented with an opportunity which resulted in a net increase in the value of my position, then passing it up doesn't sound smart
 3. There will have been a budget set, apportioned across all the equipment.  I would like the portion for my bit of kit (if I had any) to be weighted towards the "make whole" section of the balance sheet, rather than the "chasing the bastard down" section
 4. I'd be interested in getting my offer earlier than later
 5. I'd rather find out what the deal was than to dig my heels in, which would, in effect, be cutting off my nose to spite my face
 6. I'd still be concerned that things might escalate if I were to be stubborn


For those of you who may think I'm a Keysight fan boy - I'm not.  Yes, I don't mind their gear (not that I have any) but I am ambivalent about the corporate side.  My only interest in posting here is to present a perspective that might encourage some people to participate in the campaign so they can benefit.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Thanks tggzzz. The official HP Way was before my time, but I feel that it's still very much a part of our DNA.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

@Brumby, thanks!

I'm very hopeful that I can share the situation on here at some point soon-ish, but don't want to make any enemies in our legal dept  .

For now, it's  and  for me but I will be fighting to get more info out as soon as I can. I'll also say that, in general, it's not a big federal security issue. I believe the feds could just show up and take stuff if that were the case. I'm not ruling out the secret federal side of things, but to my knowledge that's not the main concern.

[Yansi]

When I wrote "playing dead bug not responding", I didn't mean Daniel, of course, but those folks from whom the scary letters go.

[Brumby]

Sounds like I may have overstated the secrecy element.  Cool.

It would be nice to have some details - even just for a nosy parker like me.     ... but, yeah, don't cross the legal department.

[rsjsouza]

Brumby, that is an excellent summary of all the points that were already beaten to death throughout this thread.