Author Topic: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?  (Read 58142 times)

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Online tautech

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #350 on: October 26, 2022, 08:49:10 pm »
OTOH the analog discovery pro (4ch) is just 250 MSa/s and costs 1600 eur vat included.
A SDS2104X Plus, 10" touch display 2 GSa/a and 200Mpts is a good bit cheaper than that.
And you can put on a big screen via its webserver.

The ADP is 14 bit but... 4 channels at 250 MSa/s in total? No thanks. Of course the Siggy is better in terms of price for specs and features. Even a Pico 2208 is better. Or the HDO1000.
Don't overlook the SDS2000X Plus 10 bit mode however it does have a 100 MHz limitation.
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Offline JeremyC

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #351 on: October 26, 2022, 09:23:12 pm »
Hello,

The Analog Discovery has only 2 sensitivity levels. Everything else is done using digital zoom. If I remember correctly, only the settings 500 mV/div and 5 V/div have the best resolution. 

Best Regards
egonotto

That's not a good thing. Even the Owon vds1022i does much better at a few microvolts, no matter being 4X cheaper.

500 mV are *a lot*.

Keep in mind that with 14bit resolution you will get 30.5uV resolution in the 500mV range.
(Attachment Link)
You missed a factor of 10.  The spec says 320 uV resolution.  A back of the envelope gives 5V/16384 = 305 uV.

Being honest, I didn’t check the specs. I was suggested by the “500 mV are *a lot*” comment.
My bad, sorry. After reading your comment, I agree with "5V it will be 305uV".
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #352 on: October 27, 2022, 04:40:26 am »
Keep in mind that with 14bit resolution you will get 30.5uV resolution in the 500mV range.

There's no 500mV range.

The AD2 has 5V and 20V ranges, that's it.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #353 on: October 29, 2022, 11:31:47 pm »
Thanks for doing those tests! The Lecroy Waversurfer and possibly the SDS1104X appear to have analog persistence enabled. Can you take screenshots with that disabled?

Sorry, forget to reply...
There was no persistence enabled, checked it on the next day at work after your post.
Want to check it again if there was any disturbances that causes this "fatty, blurred" lines of the waveform.

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Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #354 on: October 31, 2022, 03:34:08 pm »
Well, the PicoScope is no longer in contention as it has been sold. I did seriously consider it, but had a hard time accepting the gap in specification, given that its brand new price is actually 2.5x that of the Rigol MSO5000 series and it is still an 8-bit scope. I am also not entirely convinced that a scope that needs to be tethered to a computer or laptop is necessarily most practical solution for my usage case, although perhaps it might have been possible to work around that. Given that the price for this used 3406 unit was roughly the same as the price of a the Rigol MSO5074, I figured it was at least worth considering.

 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #355 on: November 01, 2022, 12:52:36 am »
Picoscope doesn't make sense other than niche scenarios, eg:
- you are a youtuber like SDG who can make good use of the on screen display
- need to tightly couple it into some PC software (maybe exclusive software programmer and only want to use kb + mouse)
- tie multiple units together for many channels, long continuous recording, etc.

Its low volume, so the value for dollar can never be great. Whereas lower end rigols/siglents get pumped out by the tens of thousands, margin is lower, value is higher.
Theoretically a USB scope could "outvalue" a benchtop unit, if the volumes were high enough.
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Offline Anding

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #356 on: November 01, 2022, 02:58:11 am »
I’m glad I move from a PC ‘scope to a bench ‘scope.  Something about the ‘muscle memory’ of using the real controls.  I’ve gotten used to it quickly and enjoy it.  Maybe it’s me but I got stressed / confused trying to control everything with a mouse and keyboard
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #357 on: November 01, 2022, 09:30:42 am »
Picoscope doesn't make sense other than niche scenarios, eg:
- you are a youtuber like SDG who can make good use of the on screen display
- need to tightly couple it into some PC software (maybe exclusive software programmer and only want to use kb + mouse)
- tie multiple units together for many channels, long continuous recording, etc.

Its low volume, so the value for dollar can never be great. Whereas lower end rigols/siglents get pumped out by the tens of thousands, margin is lower, value is higher.
Theoretically a USB scope could "outvalue" a benchtop unit, if the volumes were high enough.

Also PRO:
- really big screen with full resolution. And dozens of different windows all with different measurements.
- as many math channels as you like
- arbitrary probes with linearization and lookup tables (not only atten. ratio)
- more decodes than anything. Does your scope has I3C, 1-wire, PMBus, SMBus, SBS Data PS/2, DALI, DMX512, BroadR-Reach, MODBUS ASCII and RTU, DCC, Quadrature in addition to all CAN, CAN FD, FlexRay, Lin, Sent (fast/slow), I2C, I2S, SPI in several variants, Ethernet, Arinc, Mil1533 and other "normal" protocols. 31 altogether and counting..
- Many people put scopes of the desk and use mouse to run it because keeping your hand in the air all the time is not comfortable. That is something happening more and more with new bigger screen touchscopes. So they consider running it by mouse a plus. Go figure, people are different. I think that is fruitless discussion, like one about automatic/manual gearbox in cars. Both work well, car gets you where you need to be, people have preferences.
- You can define really fancy stuff in math. Like creating math that uses digital and analog channels together. It is dead easy to create all kinds of graphs where you convert sensor data to show actual physical data a sensor is measuring. Like showing temperature on screen from thermistor voltage. Or stepper angular movement from stepping voltages..
- Having a single GUI for all hardware is very interesting experience. I have 3 picos (one 500 Mpts 4ch/MSO 8bit, one 8 ch 12bit, and one 16bit 2ch), and they all drive the same (within BW limits of course).
- do you ever document anything or save a measurement and look at it later?
On one occasion, my son was helping a friend that wanted to put in a Megasquirt ECU in his car. There were some problems with sensors not working. So he took Pico, went to his garage, then he had im crank the car few times and captured sensor signals one by one and saved them to PC. He brought ECU back with him, and were able to verify all sensors worked ok and then we created simulated signals by feeding captured data in to ECU with AWG and were able to find what was wrong with crankshaft sensor input, and we also calibrated it so when ECU was put back in car it simply started..
There is more and more of that..

It is simple. Like old saying goes "tool for the job".

Some people do only repairs and do stuff that doesn't require analyzing things into details, but you move from one signal to another all the time. Physical controls might be useful for that. But new Pico software uses mouse wheel well, you just go over the control and roll the wheel..
I have it connected to 23" touchscreen monitor. That makes it a breeze to control...
Other people work on stuff where you look at single signal for hours.. Those don't twiddle the settings all the time.

Picos are not the cheapest option there. But they are damn good tools for some jobs and some methodologies.  Is it niche tools? I don't think so, but not everybody needs them and you need to be able to afford them.
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #358 on: November 01, 2022, 10:47:21 pm »
- more decodes than anything. Does your scope has I3C, 1-wire, PMBus, SMBus, SBS Data PS/2, DALI, DMX512, BroadR-Reach, MODBUS ASCII and RTU, DCC, Quadrature in addition to all CAN, CAN FD, FlexRay, Lin, Sent (fast/slow), I2C, I2S, SPI in several variants, Ethernet, Arinc, Mil1533 and other "normal" protocols. 31 altogether and counting..

No the scope doesn't, but the $10 logic analyzer I bought for the task does: https://sigrok.org/wiki/Protocol_decoders
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Offline oliv3r

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #359 on: November 12, 2022, 10:47:09 am »
Just my belated 2 cents.

I would sell all my current stuff, and just get the MSO5074 (because of the 4 probes, and the price difference is negligible). But then, 2 upgrades are needed. I probably want to do my own (slightly improved) version of https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/function-generator-booster-for-mso5000/msg2958594/#msg2958594 (with a jumper to take external PSU input instead of USB which limits you to 5V).

The logic probe expansion I also wanna redo :)

See some interesting threads https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso5000-threadlist/msg4029820/#msg4029820 here.

But as mentioned before, if you care a bout super low voltage measurement, then the MSO5000 are sub-optimal :)

Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #360 on: November 23, 2022, 01:41:15 pm »
Interesting point about the probes. I was watching this comparison video last night:



Is it a fair assessment? It does seem to focus on the facts.

The Siglent SDS2104X Plus is currently on offer and seems generally to be considered the better scope so I was considering stretching my budget. There is currently around 112GBP difference between them but adding the special bundle including the LA probe to the Siglent adds a further 214GBP so it might still be a stretch of around 326GBP. Total cost with and without LA probe options comes out at:

Rigol 5074 only = 855GBP
Rigol 5074 + PLA2216 LA probe = 1177GBP
Rigol 5074 + alternative LA probe = 950GBP

Siglent SDSD2102 Plus only = 967GBP
Siglent SDS2102X Plus + special bundle = 1182GBP
Siglent SDS2102X Plus + alternative LA probe = 1030GBP
Siglent SDS2104X Plus only = 967GBP
Siglent SDS2104X Plus + special bundle = 1182GBP
Siglent SDS2104X Plus + alternative LA probe = 1030GBP


It is my understanding that the special bundle is needed in order to unlock the sig gen and LA and it does come with the LA probe. However, there are a couple of matters that I am unsure about, including the probes.

Firstly it comes with PP215 probes which are rated to 200MHz. One has to purchase the SDS2354 Plus to get the SP2035A 350MHz probes and otherwise request a quote to get a price on them. If one upgrades the scope licence later, would the SP2035A probes be available to purchase? In any case, there seems to be plenty of 350MHz-500MHz passive probes available on eBay.

Secondly, the logic analyzer probe seems to be a passive rather than active probe. How does that affect performance?
There is an alternative available on eBay. Anyone have experience of either version from the same seller shown here?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224808600466
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225024212937

There video illustrates the difference in the noise level quite clearly and the difference in the usability of the firmware, but also mentions that the SDS2000x does not support horizontal vernier? How does that affect usage? Does it mean that one can't scroll left or right to view a larger portion of the captured signal?

« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 04:04:13 pm by WaveyDipole »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #361 on: November 23, 2022, 02:21:09 pm »
Is it a fair assessment? It does seem to focus on the facts.

Facts can be cherry picked.

Does it mean that one can't scroll left or right to view a larger portion of the captured signal?

Yes.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #362 on: November 23, 2022, 02:29:12 pm »
Rigol 5074 only = 855GBP
Rigol 5074 + PLA2216 LA probe = 1177GBP
Rigol 5074 + alternative LA probe = 950GBP

Siglent SDSD2102 Plus only = 967GBP
Siglent SDS2102X Plus + special bundle = 1182GBP
Siglent SDS2102X Plus + alternative LA probe = 1030GBP

One of those is a 4-channel 'scope and the the other is only a 2-channel.  :-//
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #363 on: November 23, 2022, 03:32:05 pm »
Rigol 5074 only = 855GBP
Rigol 5074 + PLA2216 LA probe = 1177GBP
Rigol 5074 + alternative LA probe = 950GBP

Siglent SDSD2102 Plus only = 967GBP
Siglent SDS2102X Plus + special bundle = 1182GBP
Siglent SDS2102X Plus + alternative LA probe = 1030GBP

One of those is a 4-channel 'scope and the the other is only a 2-channel.  :-//
That is a good point. For electronics development work, I'd go for a 4 channels oscilloscope.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #364 on: November 23, 2022, 04:03:13 pm »
Sorry for the error. I am actually comparing the SDS2104X Plus.

Is it a fair assessment? It does seem to focus on the facts.

Facts can be cherry picked.

True enough, but what I thought was interesting here is that he acknowledges that he is a Rigol fan, but in this comparison he seems to prefer the Siglent SDS2104X Plus.

Does it mean that one can't scroll left or right to view a larger portion of the captured signal?

Yes.

That would be unfortunate. On my DSO1054Z, when capturing I2C data for example, I can scroll backwards or forwards through quite a bit of data either side of what is currently displayed on the screen and zoom in and out. To me, the ability to do that for digital signals would be essential.

Can the LA data on the Siglen be easily exported? On the 1054Z its a slow and problematic process and I understand that the MSO5000 is not much better. If the data can't be viewed on screen, then it needs to be viewed some other way. The SDS2000X is supported by Sigrok so maybe that is one option? How close is this to the SDS2000X Plus? I am not seeing the MSO5000 on the Sigrok supported hardware list though.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 04:23:17 pm by WaveyDipole »
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #365 on: November 23, 2022, 05:43:11 pm »
Is it a fair assessment? It does seem to focus on the facts.

Facts can be cherry picked.

Facts can be cherry picked, which you abuse at expert level...


Does it mean that one can't scroll left or right to view a larger portion of the captured signal?
Yes.

Absolute and deliberate lie. Because you know damn well that it can.
There is a dispute as to what is best way to get large capture, but you can absolutely scroll left and right and zoom in and out to look at any portion of captured signal on any of the scopes mentioned....
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #366 on: November 23, 2022, 05:48:16 pm »
The problem is that some people want an oscilloscope to just capture more than fits on the screen without extra hassle. Please stop pushing your limited ideas about what is usefull to have onto other people. Nobody cares.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 06:02:57 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #367 on: November 23, 2022, 05:55:58 pm »
Absolute and deliberate lie. Because you know damn well that it can.
There is a dispute as to what is best way to get large capture, but you can absolutely scroll left and right and zoom in and out to look at any portion of captured signal on any of the scopes mentioned....

Huh?

If I press 'STOP' on a Siglent then I only have what's on screen in that instant, there's nothing to left or right.

Do I really have to post the video again?


 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #368 on: November 23, 2022, 05:58:29 pm »
The problem is that some people want an oscilloscope to just capture more than fits on the screen without extra hassle. Please stop pushing your limited ideas about what is usefull to have onto other people.

I'm not pushing anything, you abrasive stalker...

Read it again...:

There is a dispute as to what is best way to get large capture, but you can absolutely scroll left and right and zoom in and out to look at any portion of captured signal on any of the scopes mentioned....

 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #369 on: November 23, 2022, 06:00:07 pm »
Absolute and deliberate lie. Because you know damn well that it can.
There is a dispute as to what is best way to get large capture, but you can absolutely scroll left and right and zoom in and out to look at any portion of captured signal on any of the scopes mentioned....

Huh?

If I press 'STOP' on a Siglent then I only have what's on screen in that instant, there's nothing to left or right.

Do I really have to post the video again?


No you don't, you just like being a troll.
Read my sentence again. If you and your troll buddy don't understand it I will try to make a version with little pictures...
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #370 on: November 23, 2022, 06:07:01 pm »
The problem is that some people want an oscilloscope to just capture more than fits on the screen without extra hassle. Please stop pushing your limited ideas about what is usefull to have onto other people.

I'm not pushing anything, you abrasive stalker...

Read it again...:

There is a dispute as to what is best way to get large capture, but you can absolutely scroll left and right and zoom in and out to look at any portion of captured signal on any of the scopes mentioned....
More moving of goal posts and more hand waving. Just stop and contribute something that is actually useful to the forum.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #371 on: November 23, 2022, 06:11:25 pm »
The problem is that some people want an oscilloscope to just capture more than fits on the screen without extra hassle. Please stop pushing your limited ideas about what is usefull to have onto other people.

I'm not pushing anything, you abrasive stalker...

Read it again...:

There is a dispute as to what is best way to get large capture, but you can absolutely scroll left and right and zoom in and out to look at any portion of captured signal on any of the scopes mentioned....
More moving of goal posts and more hand waving. Just stop and contribute something that is actually useful to the forum.

Amazing.. |O 
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #372 on: November 23, 2022, 06:22:33 pm »
I will try to make a version with little pictures...

Please do. Let the entire world see it.
 

Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #373 on: November 23, 2022, 07:01:07 pm »
This clearly shows zooming in and out although I didn't notice any horizontal scrolling :



Is left/right scrolling the same as 'horizontal vernier'?
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #374 on: November 23, 2022, 07:05:39 pm »
If I press 'STOP' on a Siglent then I only have what's on screen in that instant, there's nothing to left or right.

And then ?
Use a larger timebase, then use the zoom function and see- If YOU would have a siglent.

Quote
Do I really have to post the video again?

You can post it again and again, it makes nothing better/worse/true.

"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
(Kierkegaard)
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