Handheld Oscilloscope for Automotive

[Ap_EE_1990]

I can weigh in here, I'm currently working for a prestige automotive company as a diagnostic tech too, we use picoscope as designated by the manufacturer. And, like everyone else has mentioned, they're worth the money, however from experience, you can get away with a hantek. Just make sure it's 4 channel, and you get the attentuators for use on ignition systems to protect against high voltage. As for CAN and LIN networks, a hantek is fine, the software isnt as good and can be a little buggy but for the price is fine. The biggest thing with automotive work is knowing what a good signal should look like for your specific brand/vehicle. All manufacturers use different sensors that give different readings so it's good to build up a library of good known signals on a USB for later use. Hope some of this has helped.
Ash

[frogg]

Why a bad idea?

Because you need a computer to go with a USB scope. Then, you need a place to put your computer. Then you need to supply power to said computer. Then you need to connect the computer to the USB scope. Then you need to be able to look at the computer while you diagnose the car.

Oops, now you have to work on the outside of the car. Gotta move the scope, the computer, the USB cable connecting the two, the power supply, etc.

Oh man, now you have to look at some signals while you are inside the vehicle. Gotta to move it all over again.

Ad infinitum

[Gyro]

It doesn't seem to have hampered the popularity of Pico's Automotive product range!

[Johnny10]

Pico is popular.
And the software with updates is free.

Waveforms library also available.

[live2fish88]

Why a bad idea?

Because you need a computer to go with a USB scope. Then, you need a place to put your computer. Then you need to supply power to said computer. Then you need to connect the computer to the USB scope. Then you need to be able to look at the computer while you diagnose the car.

Oops, now you have to work on the outside of the car. Gotta move the scope, the computer, the USB cable connecting the two, the power supply, etc.

Oh man, now you have to look at some signals while you are inside the vehicle. Gotta to move it all over again.

Ad infinitum

I can't run it off a battery powered laptop?

[Ap_EE_1990]

Yes you can, the laptop doesn't need to be on charge.

[maginnovision]

He's just trying to point out how cumbersome and excessive USB scopes are for automotivee diagnostic applications. I'm curious which brand recommends pico, it's not BMW, Honda, Mercedes, or vag. No way it's Toyota, my friends at Tesla don't have pico scopes. Is it actually a small brand that sells for too much?

[live2fish88]

I don't find a laptop cumbersome when you think about it you have the world at your fingertips. I would have preferred a dmm sized scope but I guess a larger screen isn't bad either

[Ap_EE_1990]

PICO is recommended by Jaguar/Land Rover (Range Rover) and Aston Martin, from what I'm hearing (from our helpdesk engineers) is that a few other European manufacturers have used it or are looking at implementing it now, its the only true way of diagnosing CAN/LIN and Flexray networks and know with absolute certainty you have a wiring issue. As well as almost everything is controlled via PWM in cars now.

[james_s]

Because you need a computer to go with a USB scope. Then, you need a place to put your computer. Then you need to supply power to said computer. Then you need to connect the computer to the USB scope. Then you need to be able to look at the computer while you diagnose the car.

Oops, now you have to work on the outside of the car. Gotta move the scope, the computer, the USB cable connecting the two, the power supply, etc.

Oh man, now you have to look at some signals while you are inside the vehicle. Gotta to move it all over again.

Ad infinitum

That's the issue I've had with USB scopes, in my case I have an old Bitscope that I've had since back before I had any other DSO. It's cumbersome to have multiple separate devices strung together and trying to find places to perch them inside car interiors or under the hood. Then when the USB port on your laptop is a little worn they can get flaky so you bump or wiggle the cable and the bus locks up. When that happens the "wonderful" design of Windows means you have to power cycle the machine to recover because a USB serial interface that is disconnected while in use never times out, it will even cause the shutdown process to hang if you try to restart it. I've been planning to sell the Bitscope because I haven't used it even once since getting a proper self contained DSO.

[maginnovision]

PICO is recommended by Jaguar/Land Rover (Range Rover) and Aston Martin, from what I'm hearing (from our helpdesk engineers) is that a few other European manufacturers have used it or are looking at implementing it now, its the only true way of diagnosing CAN/LIN and Flexray networks and know with absolute certainty you have a wiring issue. As well as almost everything is controlled via PWM in cars now.

That sounds right, expensive niche manufacturers can do that. While it can work, I won't deny that, I don't think it's the best way to go when you're trying to diagnose and repair a few cars a day. Even for working on your own car I think it's riskier(trip on a cable and you might take your laptop and/or scope with you) and more cumbersome. You can get used to anything though and if you're willing to sacrifice the advantages of handheld units for a PC based unit there are probably some advantage of its own to be had. I just don't think they outweigh the advantages of a handheld unit.

[Ap_EE_1990]

PICO is recommended by Jaguar/Land Rover (Range Rover) and Aston Martin, from what I'm hearing (from our helpdesk engineers) is that a few other European manufacturers have used it or are looking at implementing it now, its the only true way of diagnosing CAN/LIN and Flexray networks and know with absolute certainty you have a wiring issue. As well as almost everything is controlled via PWM in cars now.

That sounds right, expensive niche manufacturers can do that. While it can work, I won't deny that, I don't think it's the best way to go when you're trying to diagnose and repair a few cars a day. Even for working on your own car I think it's riskier(trip on a cable and you might take your laptop and/or scope with you) and more cumbersome. You can get used to anything though and if you're willing to sacrifice the advantages of handheld units for a PC based unit there are probably some advantage of its own to be had. I just don't think they outweigh the advantages of a handheld unit.

I must admit when we got sent the scope from the manufacturer and I looked up the price I was blown away, its a great USB scope but the thought of the quality of the benchtop scope you could get for the same price makes you wonder whether they're worth it, A handheld would definitely be a better option, especially when your hooked up into a network and you need to drive a car to get a fault to occur, there's cables everywhere. unfortunately we don't get a say in it. I still think if you want a budget conscious option that'll work on the rare occasion that you use it, a 4 channel hantek is good, not sure how expensive handhelds are.....

[Fungus]

PICO is recommended by Jaguar/Land Rover (Range Rover) and Aston Martin, from what I'm hearing (from our helpdesk engineers) is that a few other European manufacturers have used it or are looking at implementing it now, its the only true way of diagnosing

That sounds right, expensive niche manufacturers can do that. While it can work, I won't deny that, I don't think it's the best way to go when you're trying to diagnose and repair a few cars a day.

I must admit when we got sent the scope from the manufacturer and I looked up the price I was blown away, its a great USB scope but the thought of the quality of the benchtop scope you could get for the same price makes you wonder whether they're worth it,

You're paying for the Pico software as much as the hardware. That stuff isn't free.

[james_s]

I don't really consider the software to be a separate entity, it's of no use without the hardware and vice versa. Technically you're paying for the software in a benchtop oscilloscope too, it's a not insignificant portion of the development effort.

I still don't really see the appeal of a USB scope that requires a separate computer vs an integrated instrument that I can carry around and set up without a tangle of wires and separate bits chained together.

[live2fish88]

I'm enjoying the owon! Still have some learning to do but for not reading any directions (lol) and setting it up to read my amp, I did just fine.

[Fungus]

I don't really consider the software to be a separate entity, it's of no use without the hardware and vice versa. Technically you're paying for the software in a benchtop oscilloscope too, it's a not insignificant portion of the development effort.

Feel free to use a benchtop oscilloscope instead.

Oh, wait, you need that special software...?

[maginnovision]

I don't really consider the software to be a separate entity, it's of no use without the hardware and vice versa. Technically you're paying for the software in a benchtop oscilloscope too, it's a not insignificant portion of the development effort.

Feel free to use a benchtop oscilloscope instead.

Oh, wait, you need that special software...?

I think you're missing the point. Software is required for a bench top, handheld, or USB scope for the hardware to be of any use. Claiming that only pico has software you need isn't true.

[Fungus]

I think you're missing the point. Software is required for a bench top, handheld, or USB scope for the hardware to be of any use. Claiming that only pico has software you need isn't true.

Nope, you're the ones missing the point.

The OP said: "the thought of the quality of the benchtop scope you could get for the same price makes you wonder whether they're worth it"

I'm saying is that the value of a Picosscope in an automotive context doesn't come from the sample rate or the number of waveforms per second, it comes from the Automotive-oriented software that comes with it.

(ie. This: https://www.picoauto.com/products/automotive-oscilloscope-kit/picoscope-kits-software   )

[maginnovision]

Hahaha, there are other automotive scopes for way less money. You can get everything and have a handy package for it all that's easy to drive with. Let me guess, only Pico makes real automotive scope software and that is why almost nobody uses them professionally? They aren't worth the cost and the software isn't that special.

[SMdude]

I think you're missing the point. Software is required for a bench top, handheld, or USB scope for the hardware to be of any use. Claiming that only pico has software you need isn't true.

Nope, you're the ones missing the point.

The OP said: "the thought of the quality of the benchtop scope you could get for the same price makes you wonder whether they're worth it"
I'm saying is that the value of a Picosscope in an automotive context doesn't come from the sample rate or the number of waveforms per second, it comes from the Automotive-oriented software that comes with it.

(ie. This: https://www.picoauto.com/products/automotive-oscilloscope-kit/picoscope-kits-software   )

Just to clarify, the "software" being spoken of here is more related to the specific automotive tests that are built into the pico software, such as the starting and charging test that can detect battery, starter and alternator issues, cylinder balance and compression tests, can bus decoding and much more.

[Fungus]

Just to clarify, the "software" being spoken of here is more related to the specific automotive tests that are built into the pico software, such as the starting and charging test that can detect battery, starter and alternator issues, cylinder balance and compression tests, can bus decoding and much more.

Yep. I'm fairly sure a "bench scope" doesn't have 150 guided tests built in for automotive diagnosis.

https://www.picoauto.com//library/automotive-guided-tests

That's the added value I'm referring to. It's what you're paying for, not the 'scope hardware.

[2N3055]

Just to clarify, the "software" being spoken of here is more related to the specific automotive tests that are built into the pico software, such as the starting and charging test that can detect battery, starter and alternator issues, cylinder balance and compression tests, can bus decoding and much more.

Yep. I'm fairly sure a "bench scope" doesn't have 150 guided tests built in for automotive diagnosis.

https://www.picoauto.com//library/automotive-guided-tests

That's the added value I'm referring to. It's what you're paying for, not the 'scope hardware.

And a library of thousands of good/bad waveforms to compare to...

And also, auto electricians I know have more laptops and computers than wrenches...
Everything is PC (laptop) based. From service manuals, to all kinds of programmers, CAN/LIN diagnostics, ..

Also in the electronics lab, I have several PC based instruments (2 USB scopes and SA, several USB logic analyzers.).
It  takes less space, 24" (touch) screen beats any physical instrument, and it makes saving data easy. I have a dedicated PC for  it and it works great.

[james_s]

I suppose there are cases where it makes sense. A bench scope certainly *could* provide all that if a company wanted to include it but maybe they decided the market is too small for multiple players. Personally I loath touchscreens and want to smack anyone who puts fingerprints on my screen. I tolerate it on my phone because I can't carry around a proper keyboard and mouse in my pocket but otherwise I'll take knobs and switches over touch any day.

[2N3055]

......Personally I loath touchscreens and want to smack anyone who puts fingerprints on my screen. ....................

Still bothers me to this day..
But after you get used to it, it is as fast as knobs..

[Andreas]

Hahaha, there are other automotive scopes for way less money.
They aren't worth the cost and the software isn't that special.

You miss the point.

You are paying for a deep memory (256 Ms) (yes Mega-samples)
A true 12 Bit A/D converter (up to 8 channels depending on model)
And the good support (which is minimum factor 4 more responsive as that for our 20K Eur desk top oscilloscope).

The worth is in the saving of time when evaluating+documenting complex pulse trains.

with best regards

Andreas