Author Topic: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?  (Read 36007 times)

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Offline uncle_bob

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2016, 03:08:26 am »
Hi

Be very careful of DC on the input to the 8594E .... The diode is not hard or expensive to replace when you goof. Re-calibrating the unit after the replacement is the issue.

Bob
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2016, 06:42:58 am »
R&S FSP3/7. After Wuerstchenhund tried to convince me (on an earlier thread) that these little analysers were better than the HP8566/8 I went over to the test/ATE area where we had several FSP7 models that were sat unloved on the shelves. It's not difficult to see why these analysers are not popular. They take ages to boot up, the display is gloomy and the far out phase noise performance is really poor. The noise floor performance is poor at low frequencies and the linearity suffers badly down here too.

Sounds like you have the older generation FSPs then. Like with many R&S gear you have to careful with what model you have exactly. In regards to the FSP, there are two variants: the older one (1064.4495.xx) and the later one (1164.4391.xx). The old version runs Windows NT, has a very slow processor (usually FMR5/6, i.e. some AMD K6 or intel Pentium3 Celeron w. 256MB RAM), and it runs WindowsNT 4. Boot times of these older FSPs are indeed dreadful with the slow standard EIDE hard drive, as is the UI.

The newer generation has an improved RF section, a much faster processor (FMR7 with Pentium-M and 1/1.5GB RAM, although a few early models were sold with FMR6+ with P3 900MHz), and it runs WindowsXP Embedded. The FSP7 models with FMR7 come with a SATA hard drive and boot noticeably faster (approx 40s), plus they can easily be retrofitted with a bog standard SATA SSD which reduces boot times to less than 30s.

I'd generally stay away from the older 1064.4495.xx variants unless its really cheap and you can live with its limitations. They are still better than the Rigol DSA800 Series, though. Like, a lot better.

Not sure why you say the display is "gloomy", it's a bog standard industrial VGA TFT display made by Toshiba that's in use in a dozen or so other instruments from various manufacturers. It's not a CRT. Maybe the backlights on your units are worn out.

You also have to check the firmware level, as there were various improvements in later versions. In my experience, equipment that is sitting in some corner often tends to not get updated, so that's something to pay attention to.

As to the FSP not being popular, well there seem to be really an awful lot around of them. In fact, back then the FSP was one of the best selling R&S SAs, and R&S does sell quite a lot of spectrum analyzers.  Show me anything from Agilent (or anyone else) back then (2004-2006) in the same price bracket that offered a better performance and went up to 40Ghz. Anything.

Another bonus of these R&S analyzers is that they can emulate a lot of the old HP instruments, i.e. the 8566/8568/8594 etc.

They also offer some interesting options, like External Generator Control (option B10 on the FSP) which essentially allows to use an external RF generator to be used as Tracking Generator. This works not only with R&S generators but also with many HP and Agilent generators like the E44xx Series (although the R&S generators are faster due to their dedicated interface while the other generators connect via GPIB).

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I do find it puzzling why people on Eevblog are often hyper critical (snobby?) about scopes and DMMs yet they are happy to spend big money on mediocre (often new or nearly new) spectrum analysers. I can understand the popularity of the Rigol 815 with its modern display and modern features but I can't understand why people buy the HP859x series or the test sets.

The simple reason people buy them is that not everyone needs high-end top-notch RF performance, for which you pay one way or the other (i.e. with lots of money for something modern, or for less money having to live with some 30yrs old huge, noisy and power hungry monster with CRT which due to its age alone is likely to die on you any day, where no new spares are available and where many defects pretty much equal a total loss). You can very often get enough relevant information from a device with less than top-end performance, and as a bonus you often get a much more modern instrument that takes less room and comes with conveniences like LAN or even just the ability to store screen shots and data directly to a USB drive. Believe it or not, these things can often be even more important than the best ever RF performance.

I also disagree that people here are snobbish re. DVMs or scopes, in fact the majority of threads in this forum revolve around cheap beginner's scopes (mostly Rigols) and the various bugs the Chinese B-brand scopes come with as standard. And it's pretty clear that a beginner doesn't need a 30+Ghz high-end scope, for most even the scruffy Rigol DS1054z does perfectly fine. The same is true for an SA. I seriously hope you don't want to suggest that some starter who wants to learn more about RF should buy an antique HP 856x boat anchor plus an (long unsupported) E4406A (which is only really useful with the Agilent 89600A software, a $10k+ piece that can't even be bought anymore and unless you happen to own a license you pretty much have to crack it for using it for more than 30days which isn't just a grey area, it's borderline illegal). You seriously suggest that is the path a beginner should go?

It's also somewhat funny that you bash pretty much anything that you don't consider equal to your old 856x boat anchors, but still say the Rigol DSA800 is OK, a device with aside from DANL performs worse than the SA in comms testers like the CMU200/CRTU (which also have a larger bandwidth), plus it suffered from a number of annoying bugs, and it really sees no light even against the old FSP variant. It's only attractive because it's really cheap.

I understand that you a RF guy by heart, and it's pretty clear that you have very high expectations from your test gear and a certain fondness for HP gear. But you're also often pretty blind to other people's requirements, and the dismissal of anything which isn't top-notch RF gear is a bit silly, really. There's a reason why the SA market not only offers high end instruments, and a lot of useful work is done every day in labs around the world with mid-range and even entry-level devices. You should really take the blinkers off from time to time.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 08:05:40 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2016, 09:19:44 am »
If you're doing AM/FM narrowband stuff for transmit and receive, I'd seriously consider that instead of purchasing an SA, get a communications/radio test set. Some of them have SAs and even TGs as well, although those SAs are not specifically designed for EMC usage profiles, and often don't go up beyond 1GHz.

Comms test sets have some very useful facets though for AM and FM, in particular signal generators and transmitter testers for measuring receiver sensitivity and transmitter power output and modulation.

Some examples:

Marconi 2955A/B: No SA, to 1GHz CRT
HP 8920A SA/TG option 102, to 1GHz CRT
HP 8920B SA/TG option 102, to 1GHz CRT
HP 8924C SA/TG option 102, to 1GHz CRT
HP 8935 E6380A/E6381A SA/TG  + return loss (via external bridge) all standard, to 1GHz, 1.7 to 2GHz, electroluminscent
Agilent E8285A SA/TG option 102, to 1GHz, 1.7 to 2GHz, electroluminscent
Anritsu MT8802A SA option 7, to 3GHz, FM only, no AM, colour LCD

That's a good tip! I would also add the R&S CMU200 and CRTU-RU to the list, which both come with a very good spectrum analyzer as standard that fully covers 10MHz to 2.7GHz. They also come with one or two RF generators, and the CMU200 can also have an optional 20 tone audio generator/analyzer. The good thing with CMU200 and CRTU-RU is that the UI is pretty simple and with normal controls you'd find on a standalone instrument while with many other comms testers you have to wade through lots of cell phone related settings to make it work. In addition, CMU200 and CRTU-RU have a single large band (many other testers have split up their bandwidth, often with gaps in between).

Indeed, and there are often a plethora of options to be aware of.

Anyone interested in using test sets like these must check their coverage prior to purchase. Those that I mentioned previously I know are all general coverage. I don't have any experience with the R&S models and a quick look didn't immediately reveal to me how useful they are as a general purpose instrument. Certainly I've had an HP unit some years ago that was pretty much little more than an ornament outside of cellular use. Even the SA only swept a few MHz at a time.

Having said that, the Anritsu MT8802A I have gets ten times more use than the Rigol DSA815-TG, but then I do use it predominantly for production testing whereas the Rigol is mostly for R&D.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2016, 09:39:06 am »
I don't have any experience with the R&S models and a quick look didn't immediately reveal to me how useful they are as a general purpose instrument.

There are various discussions on this forum which explore the capabilities of these units. The UI is pretty much divided into general purpose modes (i.e. cell phone testing, Bluetooth testing etc) and a Basic Mode where all the device's subsystems can be used independently as general purpose instruments. The SA has normal controls that are typical of an SA (Start/Stop/Span, RBW, RefLvl, sensitivity, averaging, trigger etc) with automatic and manual modes for RBW and RefLvl. The RF generators have standard controls (i.e. frequency, output power, modulation), too. You'd find the same on pretty much any standalone SA and RF gen.

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Certainly I've had an HP unit some years ago that was pretty much little more than an ornament outside of cellular use. Even the SA only swept a few MHz at a time.

That's true for a lot of newer kit as well unfortunately. For example, the HP/Agilent/Keysight (was/is sold under all thre names) '8960 Series 10' (aka E5515) has gaps in its frequency coverage, comes with a primitive spectrum monitor only and to make it work the user has to fight the cell phone related settings. On top of that comes an onerous UI, complex software licensing and a lot of interchangeability issues with software and hardware/board revisions.

The only devices I'm aware of that can actually be used in place of a standalone SA are some of the newer Anritsu comms testers, the Agilent E7495A/B and the R&S CMU200/CRTU-RU/CMW.

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Having said that, the Anritsu MT8802A I have gets ten times more use than the Rigol DSA815-TG, but then I do use it predominantly for production testing whereas the Rigol is mostly for R&D.

Not surprising. One of the CMU200s and a E7495B I had is used by a EMC lab to do precompliance checks, another one is now serving in a startup that works on IoT stuff.
 

Online G0HZU

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2016, 05:00:45 pm »
Quote
Sounds like you have the older generation FSPs then. Like with many R&S gear you have to careful with what model you have exactly. In regards to the FSP, there are two variants: the older one (1064.4495.xx) and the later one (1164.4391.xx). The old version runs Windows NT, has a very slow processor (usually FMR5/6, i.e. some AMD K6 or intel Pentium3 Celeron w. 256MB RAM), and it runs WindowsNT 4. Boot times of these older FSPs are indeed dreadful with the slow standard EIDE hard drive, as is the UI.
The ones at work run Win XP embedded and they take just over 2 minutes to boot up.

Quote
Not sure why you say the display is "gloomy", it's a bog standard industrial VGA TFT display made by Toshiba that's in use in a dozen or so other instruments from various manufacturers. It's not a CRT. Maybe the backlights on your units are worn out.
The hours on the units at work were anywhere from 7700 to 25000(!) hours and I think these would have been purchased for offsite production testing as a cost measure to avoid tying up the decent analysers at work. So I suspect that someone bought them (used) as a job lot. All of them have gloomy displays, even the one with 7700 hours' runtime.  Anyway, the main issue with them is the mediocre RF performance of the downconverter section. This doesn't mean that they are 'bad' or awful analysers, I'd rather have the FSP than an HP859x model but then I would rather not have either of them TBH.

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It's also somewhat funny that you bash pretty much anything that you don't consider equal to your old 856x boat anchors, but still say the Rigol DSA800 is OK, a device with aside from DANL performs worse than the SA in comms testers like the CMU200/CRTU (which also have a larger bandwidth), plus it suffered from a number of annoying bugs, and it really sees no light even against the old FSP variant. It's only attractive because it's really cheap.
I think the Rigol is (was?) a unique option that suits beginners because it has the combination of being low cost and new (with a warranty), it has a decent display, fairly reasonable RF performance, a tracking generator option, and modern connectivity and lots of modern built in features. There is also a growing community of users.  So whilst it isn't a top performer in terms of its RF converter, it does offer the above features to offset this.

However, I would still buy an HP8568B 'and' an E4406A for the same price as the Rigol but not everybody will want to live with the size/power/weight and fan noise issues of these old analysers.









 

Offline danny_isrTopic starter

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2016, 05:07:38 pm »
thanks for all this information !
Part of the issue i have is my lake of knowledge. My background is digital design, and Radio/RF is a new hobby for me.
Beyond wanting to work on FM/AM/Filters maybe some Ham the main reason of buying SA is educational for me. And i will probably know better what will be most useful for me after owning one.

I tend to think, for a "novice RF"  like me a modern UI like the Rigol 815 will be probably easier. For sure i am in no need for hi-end equipment.
though i did want the 2.4Ghz for future home automation transivers. I am not sure at this point if i will build those from scratch or use off the shelf modules.
Though i thought it will be useful for debug purposes to see the signal.

My budget is in the range of the Rigol.

With that said, i will keep an eye on HP on Ebay. Though i get the impression from this thread that it's a hit or miss kind of thing. And then the calibration
issue (?).

« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 05:12:58 pm by danny_isr »
 

Online G0HZU

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2016, 05:10:45 pm »
I have a HP 8594E , it is a good piece of equipment and I can recommend it. There is nothing wrong with the display.

Putting rigol and HP in one line is even not a bad joke, it is utter nonsense.
I've only used a few of the HP859x series analysers but all of the ones I used had only a claimed 70dB log detector range and only 60dB of this was spec'd adequately. I think many of them only have RBW down to 1kHz and you need to fit options to get below this RBW. The phase noise performance isn't very good, the display is cramped and only shows 80dB range (of which only 70dB is claimed as valid as a log display in the specs) These aren't high performance analysers. They are mainly aimed at field service work where the various (optional) measurement personalities can be used by a field technician and the results stored in the card slot for use back at base. The HP8560A/E is a much better instrument even though it looks very similar. There isn't that much difference in price today when you buy them used.

I'd happily use the HP8560A/E but I wouldn't want to use the HP859x series unless I was desperate and there was no alternative. That's how far apart these similar looking analysers are in my opinion :)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 05:13:22 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline danny_isrTopic starter

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2016, 05:14:26 pm »
However, I would still buy an HP8568B 'and' an E4406A for the same price as the Rigol but not everybody will want to live with the size/power/weight and fan noise issues of these old analysers.
Do you really think i can find those two for $1500 ?
 

Online G0HZU

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2016, 05:27:47 pm »
However, I would still buy an HP8568B 'and' an E4406A for the same price as the Rigol but not everybody will want to live with the size/power/weight and fan noise issues of these old analysers.
Do you really think i can find those two for $1500 ?

Yes*, if you are patient, but you run the risk of buying a faulty/knackered one (especially in the case of the HP8568B). So this option is very risky.

* Note that I think the Rigol pricing is different here in the UK and I assumed it cost around £1300. Here in the UK the E4406 has been selling for between £350 - £600 on ebay. I've seen HP8568B analysers selling for between £500 and £1500 and most seem to be just under £1000.

But I still think you would be better off with the Rigol if you are new to RF. What are you going to do if you buy any of the (used) analysers mentioned on this thread and the analyser goes faulty within a week or two?

 

Offline danny_isrTopic starter

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2016, 05:37:02 pm »
i agree, i still have a learning curve here.  i may be even in situations that i won't know that the equipment i'm using is not functioning correctly   :-DD
That can be a frustrating experience for a beginner.

I'm thinking to buy the 815 with the tracking generator option. I believe there is an eevblog discount.
I just wanted to know if the Rigol is descent SA. Sounds like it is.
 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2016, 05:41:54 pm »
i agree, i still have a learning curve here.  i may be even in situations that i won't know that the equipment i'm using is not functioning correctly   :-DD
That can be a frustrating experience for a beginner.

I'm thinking to buy the 815 with the tracking generator option. I believe there is an eevblog discount.
I just wanted to know if the Rigol is descent SA. Sounds like it is.

Glad to hear you want the TG option - don't consider buying it without it! You can't add it later and the 815 is rather boring without it.
VE7FM
 

Offline danny_isrTopic starter

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2016, 05:46:03 pm »
yes i learn it during this little research. god bless the internet !  :-+
 

Offline youbecha

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2016, 06:02:34 pm »
I was reading through this, I am also a amateur radio operator, delving into digital transmissions...and occasionally I need access to some kind of SA to check spurious transmissions etc...

This was the first place I have heard of the Agilent E4406A VSA.

It seems to me, since checking transmitters would be my purpose...this is what I should get.

Can (in simple terms) someone explain what the difference between a SA and a Vector signal analyzer?   Can you use the VSA as an SA?  What are it's limitations?

Thanks.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2016, 06:17:15 pm »
But I still think you would be better off with the Rigol if you are new to RF. What are you going to do if you buy any of the (used) analysers mentioned on this thread and the analyser goes faulty within a week or two?

Send it back? As a buyer you're pretty much always right. If an item fails within two weeks ebay will pretty much side with the buyer, and if the seller does not turn over backwards to satisfy the buyer then ebay will just take the money and refund it.

Not just because of that a lot of kit is actually sold with some warranty, plus depending on what country you are ebay might (through a 3rd party provider) offer additional warranty for a few.

I also guess you never had to deal with Rigol's support, where a broken item can very well be gone for weeks or in some cases more than two months before it's returned, hopefully in working condition (which isn't a given!). You won't get the same level of support as you get with the reputable brands. Not even close.

In addition, as a beginner I'd generally worry more about the various bugs that come with B-brand kit, and it can be very frustrating if you have to wonder if what you see on the screen is because of something in your UUT or just another firmware bug. Would you expect a beginner to be able to make that distinction? Especially for a complex topic like RF?

I wouldn't.
 

Online G0HZU

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2016, 06:28:26 pm »
Quote
Send it back? As a buyer you're pretty much always right.
But it might fail after one month or 3 months. It might have an intermittent fault. A newbie owner might not be able to recognise the fault?

Quote
In addition, as a beginner I'd generally worry more about the various bugs that come with B-brand kit, and it can be very frustrating if you have to wonder if what you see on the screen is because of something in your UUT or just another firmware bug. Would you expect a beginner to be able to make that distinction? Especially for a complex topic like RF?

I wouldn't.

Give me a few hours with a CRTU or CMU200 and I'm sure I would find some holes in its performance. It wouldn't take long to find leakage/isolation issues wrt its hideous front end matrix and that's before I even look for significant spurious terms in its RF converter. I only needed a few hours with Tek's RSA306 analyser to find some real design howlers. Bugs so bad they should be ashamed of their whole quality control process. I can easily show you 'confusing' issues with an Agilent E4406A and it only took me a few minutes to find bugs and issues with Agilent's flagship PXA analyser a few years ago. All modern test gear is going to have bugs and holes. Just read through a few bug reports bundled in the firmware update history.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 06:39:10 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2016, 06:38:07 pm »
thanks for all this information !
Part of the issue i have is my lake of knowledge. My background is digital design, and Radio/RF is a new hobby for me.
Beyond wanting to work on FM/AM/Filters maybe some Ham the main reason of buying SA is educational for me. And i will probably know better what will be most useful for me after owning one.

I am fairly sure from your desicription that it'll spend 99.9% of its life gathering dust after an intial hour or so of switching on.

Quote
I tend to think, for a "novice RF"  like me a modern UI like the Rigol 815 will be probably easier. For sure i am in no need for hi-end equipment.
though i did want the 2.4Ghz for future home automation transivers. I am not sure at this point if i will build those from scratch or use off the shelf modules.
Though i thought it will be useful for debug purposes to see the signal.

What is it you're expecting to see? Realistically from what you've said I'd say it's pretty unlikely you'll be developing any kind of new modulation scheme or PA where you might want to look at channel usage or spectral regrowth for example. More likely it would be a device that already has all of that stuff built in, adhering to existing standards.

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My budget is in the range of the Rigol.

All of the test sets mentioned can be purchased 2nd hand for well under the price of a Rigol, and, for example, the Anritsu goes to 3GHz. They all have signal generators and transmitter testers, invaluable for developing RF. In fact I'd say an RF signal generator is going to be more useful than an SA. The 9835 even has integrated TG for sweeping filters and software for checking out return loss and even distance to fault. Having used the Rigol I'm not sure that the UI is any easier than a 15 yo test set in my experience.

What do you think the Rigol offers you that, say, an Anritsu MT8802A (w/opt 7) or 9835 won't?
 

Offline danny_isrTopic starter

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2016, 06:46:31 pm »
thanks for all this information !
Part of the issue i have is my lake of knowledge. My background is digital design, and Radio/RF is a new hobby for me.
Beyond wanting to work on FM/AM/Filters maybe some Ham the main reason of buying SA is educational for me. And i will probably know better what will be most useful for me after owning one.

I am fairly sure from your desicription that it'll spend 99.9% of its life gathering dust after an intial hour or so of switching on.


So you don't think for building/tuning AM/FM radio SA will be useful  ?  Or for educational purposes of RF in general ?
not sure i follow ...
 

Offline danny_isrTopic starter

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2016, 06:48:12 pm »

What do you think the Rigol offers you that, say, an Anritsu MT8802A (w/opt 7) or 9835 won't?
I do not know, that is why i posted a question here....
 

Offline wkb

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2016, 06:54:11 pm »
thanks for all this information !
Part of the issue i have is my lake of knowledge. My background is digital design, and Radio/RF is a new hobby for me.
Beyond wanting to work on FM/AM/Filters maybe some Ham the main reason of buying SA is educational for me. And i will probably know better what will be most useful for me after owning one.

I am fairly sure from your desicription that it'll spend 99.9% of its life gathering dust after an intial hour or so of switching on.


Actually that percentage is not unlike that of the average car. 
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2016, 06:56:28 pm »
I was reading through this, I am also a amateur radio operator, delving into digital transmissions...and occasionally I need access to some kind of SA to check spurious transmissions etc...

This was the first place I have heard of the Agilent E4406A VSA.

It seems to me, since checking transmitters would be my purpose...this is what I should get.

Are you sure?

Quote
Can (in simple terms) someone explain what the difference between a SA and a Vector signal analyzer?   Can you use the VSA as an SA?  What are it's limitations?

In simple terms, a standard SA (called a "swept SA") is basically a superhet receiver that is swept across the frequency band to build up the spectrum. A VSA on the other side takes a sample of the input signal and uses FFT to dissolve the individual frequency components (no sweeping).

A swept SA is relative simple, but because it sweeps over the frequency band it's not great for pulsed signals. FFT doesn't sweep and is more suitable for pulsed signals, however it's pretty processor intensive.

Many newer SAs combine both (sweeping the front end, and replacing the analog detector with an ADC and use FFT to get the video signal).

The E4406A is a swept VSA with a bandwidth of up to 4GHz, i.e. it sweeps over the frequency span and uses FFT to build up the spectrum. However, it suffers from various limitations. One is that the largest frequency span the unit can deal with is 10MHz (100MHz with the HSDPA software option) which very much limits it's use. There's a software to stictch together multiple 10Mhz sweeps to get a larger span but that is very slow and nothing more than a crutch.

It's worth remembering that HP built this thing as a tester for cell phone transmitters. That means it's built-in software is very cell phone centric (there's also a WLAN option for old 802.11a/b/g WiFi testing), and while it can be great for other stuff if you know what you're doing it's only really useful with the 89600A VSA software which runs on a separate Windows PC. As I said in an earlier post that is a $15k+ piece of software that is no longer sold (the newer 89600B version no longer supports the old E4406A), and while you can still download the software from Keysight and run it in a 30(?) day trial mode you'd essentially have to pirate it to use it for longer periods. Plus there are some things to consider when shopping for a VSA (i.e. 12bit vs 14bit digitizer depending on the unit's serial number and country of manufacture, size of the flash RAM, or finding the rare I/Q input option if you want it).

I have a E4406A, I don't have the software (but I might get a chance to get a genuine license if I'm lucky!) but for what I do the E4406A is nice. It's a great buy for RF nuts.
But for a beginner, no I would not recommend it. You're much better off with a proper SA.

BTW, a very good starting point to learn about SAs is the book "Fundamentals of Spectrum Analysis" by C. Rauscher, which can be downloaded here:
http://qtwork.tudelft.nl/~schouten/linkload/spectrumanalysis-rs.pdf
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2016, 07:19:53 pm »
Quote
Send it back? As a buyer you're pretty much always right.
But it might fail after one month or 3 months. It might have an intermittent fault. A newbie owner might not be able to recognise the fault?

Maybe not, but many devices like the CMU200/CRTU have pretty thorough diagnostics routines, which test everything from the PSU down to the RF matrix. They also protocol intermittent problems. And you get real service manuals with diagnostic trees and schematics for them.

Good luck narrowing down intermittent issues on a Rigol. Or getting a proper service manual for it. Or for that matter, even a proper calibration manual.

Quote
Quote
In addition, as a beginner I'd generally worry more about the various bugs that come with B-brand kit, and it can be very frustrating if you have to wonder if what you see on the screen is because of something in your UUT or just another firmware bug. Would you expect a beginner to be able to make that distinction? Especially for a complex topic like RF?

I wouldn't.

Give me a few hours with a CRTU or CMU200 and I'm sure I would find some holes in its performance. It wouldn't take long to find leakage/isolation issues wrt its hideous front end matrix and that's before I even look for significant spurious terms in its RF converter.

I'm not talking about RF performance issues, I'm talking about firmware bugs.

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I only needed a few hours with Tek's RSA306 analyser to find some real design howlers. Bugs so bad they should be ashamed of their whole quality control process.

Well, it's Tektronix, I'm not sure what you expect. It's pretty much the same with their scopes.

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I can easily show you 'confusing' issues with an Agilent E4406A and it only took me a few minutes to find bugs and issues with Agilent's flagship PXA analyser a few years ago. All modern test gear is going to have bugs and holes. Just read through a few bug reports bundled in the firmware update history.

I can't say I've seen such issues with any big brand SA:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsa815-tg-10-mhz-issue/
or
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dsa815-tg-video-ave-bug/msg855901/#msg855901

I'm not saying that other gear is bug-free, certainly not. But there's quite a difference between the bugs I see on big brand kit and what gets reported for B-brand gear like Rigol. and to make matters worse, with the B-brands you never know if a bug gets even fixed. Hell, you don't even know how long the piece of equipment will even be supported by its manufacturer.
 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2016, 07:23:30 pm »
I think you guys need to remember that for someone new to spectrum analyzers there is a massive amount of info to learn if you expect to know the ins and outs of the various models, features, capabilities etc. It is also a lot tougher for someone new to spectrum analyzers to successfully purchase a used one and really feel confident it is operating properly. In situations like this I think it is pretty hard to not recommend the Rigol DSA815-TG. It is easy to get, fairly priced(brand new with warranty) and a pretty decent user base(here anyway).
I'm not a huge Rigol fan but I am quite comfortable recommending it for the requirements listed by the OP and I think he would be quite happy with it.
VE7FM
 

Online G0HZU

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2016, 07:59:31 pm »
I think you guys need to remember that for someone new to spectrum analyzers there is a massive amount of info to learn if you expect to know the ins and outs of the various models, features, capabilities etc. It is also a lot tougher for someone new to spectrum analyzers to successfully purchase a used one and really feel confident it is operating properly. In situations like this I think it is pretty hard to not recommend the Rigol DSA815-TG. It is easy to get, fairly priced(brand new with warranty) and a pretty decent user base(here anyway).
I'm not a huge Rigol fan but I am quite comfortable recommending it for the requirements listed by the OP and I think he would be quite happy with it.

I agree :)


 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2016, 08:11:27 pm »
It's always a difficult question, do I buy new or second hand. If I had the money I would go for the Rigol DSA815-TG, at least it's got a tracking gen built in. Go check out The Signal Path, Shahriar did a teardown of a DSA875-TG. http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/2015/11/19/rigol-dsa875-tg-9khz-7-5ghz-spectrum-analyzer-tracking-generator-review-teardown-experiments/ I love his videos  :)

Anyway, if you are learning the art of RF, the Rigol DSA815-TG will get you started, and it will probably have a good resale value in a few years time if you want to move on. You can carry it with one hand as well !!. Learn with the Rigol, and then once you have an intuitive understanding and appreciation for what's going on then maybe go look at some of the classic stuff like HPs 8568B.

For 2.4GHz you've always got the option of up/down converters, Mini Circuits make some really nice stuff, mixers, couplers etc, you can pick them up cheap on ebay when people have a clear out.
 

Online G0HZU

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Re: First Spectrum Analyzer , new Rigol, used HP on ebay ?
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2016, 08:12:22 pm »
Here's a list of firmware bugs/fixes for Agilent's old flagship spectrum analyser, the wonderful Agilent PSA. We have quite a few of these at work and these analysers cost a lot of money. The PSA is still my favourite spectrum analyser to use at work.  But search for how many firmware 'crash'  bugs there are on this page and this covers about an 8 year timeframe. Note also the early bugs that gave amplitude and peaking errors and issues with intermittent alignment failures after bootup ;)

http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-32514.1150234.02&id=1000000938:epsg:sud&pageMode=PV
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 08:19:34 pm by G0HZU »
 


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