Author Topic: Simple Technique to measure Waveform Update Rates: DSOs w/either Edge Triggering  (Read 64441 times)

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Offline Harvs

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How should it get affected?  I don't understand, I thought a trigger out just has an edge that corresponds to "time zero" on the scope?  How does that change with long memory depth?

The maximum number of triggers a scope can output at any given point is the inverse of the acquisition cycle time. The acquisition cycle time includes the acquisition time - which, as I wrote in my last post to you, is always the longer of either (time base * divs) OR (sample length / sample rate). With long memory depths, it's almost always the latter - so the waveforms per second (and the number of trigger out pulses) would then decrease.  Now please don't make me write this again  ;)

Edit: BTW, almost EVERYTHING you can do on a DSO affects the wfrm/s rate (and thus the Trigger out): persistence, measurements, extra channels, having a menu out, etc. because they change the variable blind time (i.e. the DSO is doing more processing).

Oh, he was referring to the "values" of the waveforms per second!  hehehe, I thought he was coming up with some other totally left field test where by the memory depth will change the inherent behavior of the trigger output system.

Seriously I need more coffee...

And no Marmad, you actually didn't ever need to state that, it's perfectly apparent in my mind  :D.  What's not apparent to me is exactly how many samples the DS1000 takes at any given setting.  I use to think it was always 2^14 (16k) / number of channels when on normal memory depth, regardless of the timebase setting (i.e. the timebase setting just changed the sample rate and "zoom" of the display).  But this discussion has made me wonder if my assumptions were wrong.  However, when I get the chance I'll do some raw dumps over USB and see what I get out.

tinHead

Back to the discussion about the "trigger out",  I'm guessing what you're getting at, is does the trigger show edges when the scope is acquiring samples.  I.e. is it just a pass through from the trigger circuitry.  I can defiantly say it's not.  You can throw as many pulses you like at it, and it will only have a rising edge when the scope actually is triggered.
 

Offline tinhead

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Back to the discussion about the "trigger out",  I'm guessing what you're getting at, is does the trigger show edges when the scope is acquiring samples.  I.e. is it just a pass through from the trigger circuitry.  I can defiantly say it's not.  You can throw as many pulses you like at it, and it will only have a rising edge when the scope actually is triggered.

i would not say pass through, the trigger flag/option etc. need to be set and fullfiled to produce output here, but this
still didn't means the DSO postprocessed the data and stored it in some buffer (like on DPO or all modern DPO-like DSOs)
or send it to display (or display buffer) which is the case for typical DSOs.

When you check the available memory in DS1000E, you will see there is not enough to have 2 x 8k or 1x16k buffer
within FPGA. There are 423936 bits, div by 10 ADCs and by 8bit per ADC thats 5299.2bits - more realistic from
implementation point of view is therefore 4096bit max. Even if not full 4k but e.g. 1k are used per ADC, the DSP
still need to read multiple times or there is different architecture in FPGA (which we don't know, see below).

In HanTekway DSOs i can see in FPGA two FIFOs, each 2048bit deep and 16bit wide. That's 65536bit
and already twice the reqiered size for "4ksamples per channel", so i assume this are the DPO-like buffers.
I assume the FPGA is using dual port ram for sampled data, so 8 ADCs x 8bit x 4096deep, that's are 262144bits.
So together there are 327680bits used (from 423936 available), and still lot of (96256bit) for what so ever function.
Knowing this (and the fact that i can set trigger by writing specific FPGA register and read back sampled data without
running the ARM app) i could say that IF there is similar trigger-out signal on FPGA (it is actually there as specific
FPGA register readback) then this will be a real trigger-out data.

Did i forgot something? Yes is did, this is only valid for 4ksamples per channel, when HanTekway is using more
(24k, 40k, 512k, 1M or 2M) then that data is going then to external SRAM before moved into display buffer.
That means trigger-out should send "triggered pulse" 10x when memory depth is set to 40ksamples (or only once
when the FPGA design is smart enough). I assume it is the last case, because as i patched once the ARM firmware
to beep on trigger it was only once beep per 40k.

All the other things the DSO is doing with the sampled data need to be count as well as part of acuisition step
- especially when we talk about DSO, for DPO-like gears this might be difficult to say. Example Tek TDS700A,
when DPO enabled the DSO can be still getting slower when adding measure, cursor, etc (but the trigger out didn't
drop here as it comes from the sampling core and not UI).

I can only guess what Rigol DS1000E is doing in FPGA, two 4k deep FIFOs, each 16bit wide (two FIFOs mae sense
as we have two DSO channels). Then 10 dual port buffers (for 10ADCs) x 2k deep x 8bit wide. The remained
129024bit are for what so ever DSO functionality in FPGA. However there is still open question how they managed
to run 5 clock domains in EP3C5 FPGA, and are they skipping sampled data 4 times to write FIFO? They can as well
use external SRAM to store the 16k, this is what we don't know.

An hardware "clone", e.g. ATTEN (what so ever, one of the old models) is having only 4k when the SRAM is not populated,
so it can be that Rigol is using the external SRAM for these 16k already. If that's the case, the question "is the trigger out
you found a real trigger out or only sync signal to LA" is still valid. Additionally Rigol DS1000 was never announced to work
as DPO-like DSO, so we need for sure take into calculation how the data is being sampled, stored and postprocessed before
we use the signal you found for what so ever calculations.
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Offline tinhead

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I don't know if we can call it aliasing, but it's sort of like that.

i know what you mean, but tests with external signals are anyway tricky.

Example, I've tested HanTekway with the two signal method, e.g. result for 20us/IDV was 488us delay
when 50Hz display refresh selected (so 2049 wfms/s) and 358us when 30Hz display refresh (2793wfms/s).
When i measured with the dual edge trigger and extern triggering (as proposed by you), and started from
low to high frequency, i got 244 wfms/s which is near the avg. 2421/10 which i got by using two signal method.
And of course i got as well higher values with dual edge and external trigger when i increased test signal frequency.

So what is the real value? Pure visual by comparing with TEK TDS700, and as well by testing with (programmed) glitch
i would say Tekway told the truth and their DSOs can something 2000-2500wfms/s. They selling these DSOs as DPO-like,
the sampled buffer speaks for it (see my post above).

On the other side, the probability to have 1/10 and think to have 10x times is not that small  :palm:

Btw, i have only WaveForms AWG (wtih sound card), this is not the best solution for testing due step size in delay,
it takes a lot of time so i will not check deeper. Other FGs i have are only one channel, and unfortunately i had
no luck today, there was nice Yokogawa FG120 on ebay 330925343592

So still, when someone have HanTekway/Voltcraft and 2ch AWG with delay, then please check the wfms/s with the two
channel method (or with one channel Hantek AWG and the ramp/pulse method).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 01:12:08 pm by tinhead »
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Offline marmadTopic starter

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Oh, he was referring to the "values" of the waveforms per second!  hehehe, I thought he was coming up with some other totally left field test where by the memory depth will change the inherent behavior of the trigger output system.

Seriously I need more coffee...

He, he. One problem we have here in trying to discuss technical data is that there's almost always one portion of the forum in need of either sleep OR coffee.  ;)

Quote
What's not apparent to me is exactly how many samples the DS1000 takes at any given setting.  I use to think it was always 2^14 (16k) / number of channels when on normal memory depth, regardless of the timebase setting (i.e. the timebase setting just changed the sample rate and "zoom" of the display).  But this discussion has made me wonder if my assumptions were wrong.  However, when I get the chance I'll do some raw dumps over USB and see what I get out.

You're right - I never realized this about the Rigol DS1000 - but when I calculated from charts of the sampling frequencies available here in the forum, these are the number of actual sample points being displayed at each time base setting (out of a possible 16kPts):

      Points displayed from 16k sample length (DS1000E series)
5ns      60
10ns      120
20ns      240
50ns      600
100ns   600
200ns   600
500ns   600
1us      1,200
2us      2,400
5us      3,000
10us      3,000
20us      3,000
50us      3,000
100us   3,000
200us   3,000
500us   3,000
1ms      3,000
2ms      3,000
5ms      3,000
10ms      3,000
20ms      3,000

   Points displayed from 14k sample length (DS2000 series)
5ns   140
10ns   280
20ns   560
50ns   1,400
100ns   2,800
200ns   5,600
500ns   14,000
1us   14,000
2us   14,000
5us   14,000
10us   14,000
20us   14,000
50us   14,000
100us   14,000
200us   14,000
500us   14,000
1ms   14,000
2ms   14,000
5ms   14,000
10ms   14,000
20ms   14,000
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 01:09:17 pm by marmad »
 

Offline ivan747

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I don't know if we can call it aliasing, but it's sort of like that.

i know what you mean, but tests with external signals are anyway tricky.

Example, I've tested HanTekway with the two signal method, e.g. result for 20us/IDV was 488us delay
when 50Hz display refresh selected (so 2049 wfms/s) and 358us when 30Hz display refresh (2793wfms/s).
When i measured with the dual edge trigger and extern triggering (as proposed by you), and started from
low to high frequency, i got 244 wfms/s which is near the avg. 2421/10 which i got by using two signal method.
And of course i got as well higher values with dual edge and external trigger when i increased test signal frequency.

So what is the real value? Pure visual by comparing with TEK TDS700, and as well by testing with (programmed) glitch
i would say Tekway told the truth and their DSOs can something 2000-2500wfms/s. They selling these DSOs as DPO-like,
the sampled buffer speaks for it (see my post above).

On the other side, the probability to have 1/10 and think to have 10x times is not that small  :palm:

Btw, i have only WaveForms AWG (wtih sound card), this is not the best solution for testing due step size in delay,
it takes a lot of time so i will not check deeper. Other FGs i have are only one channel, and unfortunately i had
no luck today, there was nice Yokogawa FG120 on ebay 330925343592

So still, when someone have HanTekway/Voltcraft and 2ch AWG with delay, then please check the wfms/s with the two
channel method (or with one channel Hantek AWG and the ramp/pulse method).

Thanks for the test. The Ch1 signal can be derived from the external trigger signal by using a frequency divider. It can be done with a flip-flop and a function generator with TTL output.

Now that we have tables for the DS1052Es, and now that I know I can use the original method to compare, I could try this with a lot of patience. My problem right now is that I never bothered buying a function generator. It's not on my list of priorities because I mostly do MCUs.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

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@onlooker: Could you please test your method on your Owon SDS7102 with the following settings:

1k Sample Length
CH1
Horizontal: 500ns/div   
Trigger type: Rising Edge
Trigger mode: Normal

Please let me know what number you receive. Just report whatever you find (even if you think it's wrong) because this is a blind experiment.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 05:23:38 pm by marmad »
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

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Since we've been discussing acquisition cycles and blind times, it occurred to me that I wasn't 100% sure about the precise definition of the active acquisition time (screen time or samples?). I had assumed it was whichever was longer (in time) - but I wanted to check the literature.

After re-reading the two most oft-quoted documents on the subject, this and this, it appears, strangely enough, that Agilent and Rohde & Schwarz define this critical piece of information differently!

Agilent's lit. states:
"A scope’s dead-time percentage is based on the ratio of the scope’s acquisition cycle time minus the on-screen acquisition time, all divided by the scope’s acquisition cycle time."

Rohde & Schwarz's lit. states:
"The acquisition cycle consists of an active acquisition time and a blind time period. During the active acquisition time the oscilloscope acquires the defined number of waveform samples and writes them to the acquisition memory. e.g. 100 ns (1000 Sa, 10 GSa/s). "

So Agilent considers points captured, but not displayed, as part of the blind time - but Rohde & Schwarz doesn't.

So for example, given the following settings:

1GSa/s sample rate
1k sample length (so sample time is 1us)
10ns/div. time base
10 divisions on screen (so onscreen time is 100ns)
100k wfrm/s

Agilent's lit. states:
"% DT = Scope’s dead-time percentage
 = 100 x [(1/U) – W]/(1/U)
 = 100 x (1 – UW)
 where
 U = Scope’s measured update rate
 and
 W = Display acquisition window = Timebase setting x 10"

So according to Agilent's specifications and formula, the blind time is 99%.

R&S's lit. states:
"acquisition rate = 1 / acquisition cycle time
blind time ratio = blind time / acquisition cycle time"

So according to R&S's specifications and formula, the blind time is 90%.

Strange.  But perhaps it's just a question of semantics: Agilent feels if you can't see it on the display, it's not relevant - but R&S feels that it's still data that's been captured and can be analyzed if needed?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:50:41 pm by marmad »
 

Offline ivan747

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If you take the term blind literally, you will see Agilen's definition is more accurate. You can't see all the information in the oscilloscope's memory in real time.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

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If you take the term blind literally, you will see Agilen's definition is more accurate. You can't see all the information in the oscilloscope's memory in real time.

But Agilent calls it 'dead time' - R&S calls it 'blind time'.  If you then take it literally, R&S seems more accurate.  ;)
 

Offline onlooker

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Quote
1k Sample Length
CH1
Horizontal: 500ns/div   
Trigger type: Rising Edge
Trigger mode: Normal

I did some tests with freq counting the trig out and the pulse+ramp method.

Yes, the matter is not as simple (at least for 7102). Generally, for stable showing waveforms on the screen, the frequency counting of the trig-out always showed a rate around from 18 to 27Hz independent of the the memory depth.

On the other hand, the pulse+ramp method, generally, evaluated the upd rate to about 100Hz for the timebase in the range from about 50us/div to 5ns/div.

The seemingly strange thing was that, at the flicking threshold point, the freq counter always showed a freq about the same as the pulse+ramp method evaluated to (about 100Hz).

My guess is that the time interval between the 1st pair of trigger events after a long quiet period is not the same as with continues/uniform triggering.  I am not sure if this just applies to 7102, or also to other scopes.

I think more evenly placing the pulse and the ramp may improve the method for getting the number for continuous triggering. Then, more efforts are needed to avoid the aliasing effect.
 

 

Offline marmadTopic starter

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The seemingly strange thing was that, at the flicking threshold point, the freq counter always showed a freq about the same as the pulse+ramp method evaluated to (about 100Hz).

Well, strangely, I've been hearing about measurements (using a different technique) that suggest perhaps the Owon's wfrms/s rate (at small sample lengths) is higher then what has been previously believed.

Quote
My guess is that the time interval between the 1st pair of trigger events after a long quiet period is not the same as with continues/uniform triggering.  I am not sure if this just applies to 7102, or also to other scopes.

That's possible. OTOH, it's also possible that the Owon's Trigger out is completely inaccurate as a measure of the wfrm/s rate - but instead is limited by the refresh rate of the LCD or something else.
 
It would be good if someone could test it thoroughly using a technique that didn't rely on the Trigger out - as I've done with the DS2000.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 01:23:43 am by marmad »
 

Offline ivan747

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If you take the term blind literally, you will see Agilen's definition is more accurate. You can't see all the information in the oscilloscope's memory in real time.

But Agilent calls it 'dead time' - R&S calls it 'blind time'.  If you then take it literally, R&S seems more accurate.  ;)

Well, it depends on who's the blind guy. Agilent thinks you are the one blinded, so they take the points captured and not being not shown on the screen as part of the blind time. R&S believe the blind time is when the scope cannot "see" the waveform i.e. cannot capture it.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Here is result with Owon SDS7102V V2.8.3

I have now repeated all tests more and also done some (many of) checking tests with other equipments and agen and agen result is same.
Tests with other settings are under work.

It trigs, and display, two pulses what have 2.35ms time difference. If time is less, this second pulse fall to blind time period and not trigged.  Calculated from two pulses time difference, speed is 425 displayed wfrm/s.

It is unexpected result!
It need confirmation.

So I ask if someone have trusted signal sources and can do corresponding test and peer reviews for this result.




Owon trig out can not use at all for this measurement.
Trig out can use only with very slow speed things. Example set scope to single mode and go to drink coffee...  trig out can ring bell after scope have trigged ;)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 11:17:38 am by rf-loop »
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Offline tinhead

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It trigs, and display, two pulses what have 2.35ms time difference. If time is less, this second pulse fall to blind time period and not trigged.  Calculated from two pulses time difference, speed is 425 displayed wfrm/s.

It is unexpected result!

indeed, 425 wfms/s is good result, who knows, maybe the DSO core is that fast but the trigger out only synched to UI
refresh rate (which actually Owon confirmed).
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Offline rf-loop

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Here tested with 1k, 10k, 100k, 1M and 10M memory depth.
If do some calculations, it is also good to note used sampling speeds.
If look 1us.
1k memory there is 50Msa/s
Memory lenght is 20us. (and trigger position is half way)
After first trig, it takes minimum 2350us before it can trig agen.
Visible area is 15 div horizontally and capture lenght is 20div (for oscilloscope and human blind time calculation)

10M memory, there is 1Gsa/s.
Memory lenght is 10ms (and trigger position is half way)
After first trig, it takes minimum 15.2ms before it can trig agen.
Visible area is 15 div horizontally and capture lenght is now 10000 div (for oscilloscope and human blind time calculation)

Here attached new test (checked previously made and added all memory depths.

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Offline marmadTopic starter

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10M memory, there is 1Gsa/s.
Memory lenght is 10ms (and trigger position is half way)
After first trig, it takes minimum 15.2ms before it can trig agen.
Visible area is 15 div horizontally and capture lenght is now 10000 div (for oscilloscope and human blind time calculation)

I don't know, rf-loop. According to your table, the Owon is doing 80 wfrm/s with 10MPts @ 50ns/div. My DS2000 does 142 wfrm/s with 14MPts @ 50ns/div. Having used both DSOs, the Rigol feels more than just 75% faster - it feels a few times faster. I know this doesn't prove anything - and I could certainly be wrong - but I'm just wondering about those figures.

It would be good to get confirmation using a different technique to measure.
 

Offline rf-loop

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10M memory, there is 1Gsa/s.
Memory lenght is 10ms (and trigger position is half way)
After first trig, it takes minimum 15.2ms before it can trig agen.
Visible area is 15 div horizontally and capture lenght is now 10000 div (for oscilloscope and human blind time calculation)

I don't know, rf-loop. According to your table, the Owon is doing 80 wfrm/s with 10MPts @ 50ns/div. My DS2000 does 142 wfrm/s with 14MPts @ 50ns/div. Having used both DSOs, the Rigol feels more than just 75% faster - it feels a few times faster. I know this doesn't prove anything - and I could certainly be wrong - but I'm just wondering about those figures.

It would be good to get confirmation using a different technique to measure.

As I write, this test show what was smallest delay time between 2 pulses what give reliable repeatable trigger and visible signal in this test configuration.


This is only exact test data (including some natural small errors in accuracy)  and it can repeat as many time want where ever workshop with used equipments and method.  Also here was other people who also check that I have not made any decimal point type or other trivial error. Just becouse this result was so unexpected.

And also becouse this unexpected data,  I ask if someone other can do some kind of same test with this "marmad" published very nice method (adapted some amount)  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/year-2013-oscilloscope-choices/msg223144/#msg223144


I do not want to take any other position on the basis of the actual real  continuous displayed wfrm / s in all. 

However, in this test, now that I have it continued and repeated, showing that the OWON is in some way more forward than it has been in the habit of common thinking.

Note: OWON Trig Out ??connector has no meaning in this case.   (yes it can maximum about 35Hz but it is not true trig out... but also faster speeds it can draw signal to TFT related to trigger set position + around over 2us delay and other funnies... ) It is not at all this kind of "trig out" what we normally think and specially, nothing to do with these trig outs what are in professional true oscilloscopes (analog oscilloscopes).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 05:25:47 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline jpb

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It is interesting in the light of the discussion on edge triggers in this thread that Iwatsu have added both types of Edge Triggers in their latest scope (a development of the WaveJet), though their OR edge trigger seems to be designed to operate on more than one channel:

Versatile trigger functions offer the best suited trigger for each type of signal

    [Edge ALT] Trigger allows alternate rising edge and falling edge triggering
    [Edge OR] Trigger allows edge triggering of signals for multiple channels
    Pattern Trigger allows triggering using complex patterns of logical signals
    [Dropout] Trigger allows triggering on signal dropouts, etc.

     
 

Offline onlooker

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Quote
It trigs, and display, two pulses what have 2.35ms time difference. If time is less, this second pulse fall to blind time period and not trigged.  Calculated from two pulses time difference, speed is 425 displayed wfrm/s.

I believe even if these numbers about Owon SDS7102 are correct, they may not imply that the average waveform update rate under continuous triggering are as good.

I tried the n-pulse burst method that jpb proposed (either with persistence+FG single wave, or no persistence+camera). Though not conclusive yet, what I found was:  As I guessed earlier, the wait time required between the 1st pair of trigger events after a relatively long quiet time (~0.1s) is indeed much shorter than the wait time required between subsequent triggerings. To do the test one does not even need to adjust much the time interval between the pulses in the burst. One needs only select a time interval that is faster than the max wfrm rate of the scope and counting the misses.

For example, for an 11 pulse burst evenly spaced by 22ms (wfrm rate=45Hz)  or 11ms (wfrm rate=90) running at one burst per second,  the 1st 2 pulses always trigger, the subsequent pulses in the burst start to miss. By counting out the missed pulses, for both cases the average wfrm rate consistently come down to the same disappointing number, about 27 triggerings per second showing on the screen. With persistence on, it was worse. At this point, even if the hardware can do better, if it can't be shown on the screen, could the user still benefit from it?

Maybe the new version can do better. But I really like to see someone test the max upd rate under continuous triggering.


The scope setting for the tests: 1k points, normal sampling, normal trig, 500ns/div
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 05:05:12 am by onlooker »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Quote
It trigs, and display, two pulses what have 2.35ms time difference. If time is less, this second pulse fall to blind time period and not trigged.  Calculated from two pulses time difference, speed is 425 displayed wfrm/s.

I believe even if these numbers about Owon SDS7102 are correct, they may not imply that the average waveform update rate under continuous triggering are as good.

I tried the n-pulse burst method that jpb proposed (either with persistence+FG single wave, or no persistence+camera). Though not conclusive yet, what I found was:  As I guessed earlier, the wait time required between the 1st pair of trigger events after a relatively long quiet time (~0.1s) is indeed much shorter than the wait time required between subsequent triggerings. To do the test one does not even need to adjust much the time interval between the pulses in the burst. One needs only select a time interval that is faster than the max wfrm rate of the scope and counting the misses.

For example, for an 11 pulse burst evenly spaced by 22ms (wfrm rate=45Hz)  or 11ms (wfrm rate=90) running at one burst per second,  the 1st 2 pulses always trigger, the subsequent pulses in the burst start to miss. By counting out the missed pulses, for both cases the average wfrm rate consistently come down to the same disappointing number, about 27 triggerings per second showing on the screen. With persistence on, it was worse. At this point, even if the hardware can do better, if it can't be shown on the screen, could the user still benefit from it?

Maybe the new version can do better. But I really like to see someone test the max upd rate under continuous triggering.


The scope setting for the tests: 1k points, normal sampling, normal trig, 500ns/div

Yes.

Numbers are exatly correct. (but including natural accuracy errors in signal source and also in many cases it start find delayed pulse B trig smaller delay but not always. I have rised delay time from this "sometimes trig to B" until it trigs always - exept time when scope do something and it is "thinking" something and loose this trig to pulse B.  It looks like periodically  but shortly  scope do something what need  more time - example storing current settings)

This, what you say,  is also reason why I did not write waveforms/second table - and I also recommend no other do it. As long as this table is just as it, it is ok.

Totally other question is perhaps more interesting.

For clarify: This is NOT for Owon:
Trigger out based displayed waveforms per second tables. Aka "wfrm/s" tables.
Trigger out can  easy measure. But how it is proofed that every these events are always really displayed and what include one displayed waveform... 20 point of data? or something other. Where I can find tests with proofments every counted (from trigger output) trig event really mean displayed single waveform on the screen via diplay memory. This whole wfrm/s case is full of not clear things. Read big brands material and then I ask, is it really clear. No, it is not. It looks that even Agilent or R&S have different thinking what is blind time etc...  I have not seen any common standard what is exact definition of wfrm/s.  Some talk captured waveform, but how long data.. some talk displayed waveforms but do not specify what is displayed.. ten pixel or 1kpoints data in every "waveform".
Where are  exact specifcations.  Yes, I have read more than  just some years Hewlett Packard and destroyed "Hewlett Packard" (tca "A-gi-lent") materials, Tektronix, R&S and so on. I can tell. I do not know what is real and exact general and uniform definition of wfrm/s. In analog scopes times I know it well. Perhaps it is only my problem becouse just I do not understand but I afraid I'm not alone with this.

Who can proof me that in all cases example every trig out means also real displayed waveform and how much data it contain.

One manufacturer long time ago tell that there is max 2000 waveforms per second.  I can see barely just over 20. If there was 2000 waveforms captured per second where they are displayed. Perhaps it need some magic camera... normal Canon can not see them and my eyes can not see these.
(generate fast changing signal and install camera taking picture with enough long shutter time or use example very fast video camera and then count what is really displayed.  - this is perhaps good idea for Dave - take some amazing method for detect real displayed wfrm/s and  remove mystery woman "wfrm/s" pants.  However, I am afraid that not everyone will like it - I mean, some of the prominent manufacturers.)


Be careful with these pulse or other methods calculated wfrm/s ("displayed waveforms per second") values and even with trig out methods concluded.  Trig out counting tell exactly how many trig out events there can find in time period and this number is of course true, it can measure from trig out. What other things it really tell - who knows.


For clarify This is agen for Owon:
Here also two very old test images (Feb. 2012). (also I wonder this other image lines, there is many just near each others, then some have bigger distance   and all these images with 10M memory in use. around 38 true displayed full waveforms per second and all these separate captures are 10M lenght but of course in image there is only very very small part of every capture.)

« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 10:41:23 am by rf-loop »
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Offline onlooker

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I guess there is a misunderstanding about my last post due to not being explicit enough.

For all tests I did there, NO trig-out was used. That is, trig-out was irrelevant. The discussions were based on what were displayed on the screen determined either by using a camera (shutter speed set to a little over 0.5s) or by placing the scope in the persistence mode. I will try to put some pics up later.
 

Offline rf-loop

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I guess there is a misunderstanding about my last post due to not being explicit enough.

For all tests I did there, NO trig-out was used. That is, trig-out was irrelevant. The discussions were based on what were displayed on the screen determined either by using a camera (shutter speed set to a little over 0.5s) or by placing the scope in the persistence mode. I will try to put some pics up later.

btw, there is bug in persitence

Also added old images to my earlier post
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 10:42:19 am by rf-loop »
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Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the (strong)wises gone?
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

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Who can proof me that in all cases example every trig out means also real displayed waveform and how much data it contain.

Well, that was one of the points of my video - to demonstrate another method to see if the DSO is doing what it says it's doing. I think for my DS2000 (unless Rigol is not telling the truth about what the Edge trigger is doing, etc), the video shows that the Trigger out is at least following what is happening on the DSO display.

But I agree there should be more information: manufacturers should publish baseline stats, or - better still - there should be a waveform counter on the screen (along with sample rate and length), so that we, the users, can decide - given all the information - which time base setting (and it's associated sample and waveform rates) would best suit what we're trying to do.

Quote
One manufacturer long time ago tell that there is max 2000 waveforms per second.  I can see barely just over 20. If there was 2000 waveforms captured per second where they are displayed. Perhaps it need some magic camera... normal Canon can not see them and my eyes can not see these.

I understand your point, but your figures are missing some information:

Tests with Air Force pilots have shown that they could identify a plane on a picture that was flashed for as little as 1/220th of a second (i.e. make a distinction between a non-airplane shape and an airplane shape) - so there is evidence to support the theory that humans can identify discrete pieces of information in something close to ~1/250th of a second. So this would imply that we could notice a glitch that appears and disappears in the space of what is currently around the fastest refresh rate of an LCD: approximately 240Hz (I don't mean in DSO LCDs yet - I just mean in consumer goods).

More importantly (given current DPO technology), according to research, we can identify ~100 levels of intensity. So the obvious reason to have intensity grading is to increase the amount of information we could perceive on the DSO screen per second by a factor of ~100.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 11:16:43 am by marmad »
 

Offline tinhead

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i] Perhaps it need some magic camera... normal Canon can not see them and my eyes can not see these.
(generate fast changing signal and install camera taking picture with enough long shutter time or use example very fast video camera and then count what is really displayed.  - this is perhaps good idea for Dave - take some amazing method for detect real displayed wfrm/s and  remove mystery woman "wfrm/s" pants.  However, I am afraid that not everyone will like it - I mean, some of the prominent manufacturers.)

you can take even the light speed camera, the display is refreshing with complettly different refresh rate than the data refresh in sample buffer. Take TDS700, enable DPO/InstaVu
and you will see persistently lot of events, but when you capture them with cam, you will not see 400k wfms/s (even if you can measure such value on trigger out).

Even if something has been captured once, and saved for some time into DPO buffer, it does not means you will see it ALWAYS on screen, you might miss it
due the buffer/screen refresh ration. Sure, you will see programmed glitch at last each every second (which is in my opinion still the second best way to measure wfms/s),
but random glitch is something complettly different. The equation in fw can as well eliminate some glitches when there are lot of them (as the persistency/cumulative occurrence is finite).

There is as well sometimes problem with the way how DSO is working. Some manufacturers providing best case data only, where the wfms/s is not continuesly stable but
a avg. from bursts. That's not 100% ok, but yeah, where is the wfms/s internation standard? I remember LeCroy had such models (don't ask me for numbers),
probably others as well. When looked on the available videos (example Instek), i can clearly see windows in trigger out where the difference between events is not equal.
This is giving always a chance that you miss event.

Hantek is for sure doing this (from my observation, measurments, FPGA readbacks), FPGA seems to capture data into DPO-like buffer, where ARM firmware
is reading (with best case 50x slower rate of course) the data into second buffer. Here the persistency will be calculated (i have no idea why Hantek decided to
show only the DPO-like persistency in run mode and not stop mode, anyway, that's different story), and based on UI settings the thread might run faster or
slower, which can (and it does) cause skip on data readback from FPGA buffer. When you run tests with preprogrammed glitch, you can clearly see peaks in what
captured. I don't mind, at time of development that was first chinese DPO-like scope with good wfms/s rate*, but i would prefer to have continuous rate.

*there are as well Rigol CA models, but they work complettly different, they using two FPGAs (like the DS2000 models, however they don't have external RAM).
Afaik (based on report from someone else, i don't own CA model) they can provide continuous 2000wfms/s.
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Offline jpb

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One thing about the WaveJet history mode is that you know that it has captured all the waveforms because you can run through them individually. Though you do have to assume that the time stamp is accurate (as for as I can ascertain it is very accurate).

The drawback is that all the knob twiddling has knackered my wrist (in conjunction with pushing a heavy trampoline), I'm now having to type with my wrist in a splint, so no more experiments for me for a little while! :'(

If I ever manage to get a waveform generator I'm looking forward to trying the method of this thread (but with two pulses) to see how the results compare.
 


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