A broken 34470A and Keysight's terrible customer service

[bd139]

Ok this should be escalated to CXO level at Keysight so they can direct the relevant regional policy. It’s a global brand. There is only one Keysight as far as the end users are considered.

Even though I work for a UK subsidiary of my company which is similarly sized I have a direct line of reporting across concerns to our global CEO and CTO. 

[nctnico]

Regarding the Europe/VAT ID/non-business concerns, that's an area that I unfortunately can't help or circumvent/shortcut around the official channels/statements. If I could I would 100% have done it already.

Is there any chance you can explain the reasoning behind the change? Keysight's position isn't great, but it would be more palatable if we at least had a reason why. It would be fantastic if you could provide a list of the required criteria for classing a business, but I know this will probably be a bit of a stretch.

What do you think about simply registering a business? I get the feeling that this thread is more about a unique situation in the UK where people running a business don't register their businesses formally and now are suddenly confronted by a different culture where having a company formally registered is the norm.

[Cerebus]

Regarding the Europe/VAT ID/non-business concerns, that's an area that I unfortunately can't help or circumvent/shortcut around the official channels/statements. If I could I would 100% have done it already.

Is there any chance you can explain the reasoning behind the change? Keysight's position isn't great, but it would be more palatable if we at least had a reason why. It would be fantastic if you could provide a list of the required criteria for classing a business, but I know this will probably be a bit of a stretch.

What do you think about simply registering a business? I get the feeling that this thread is more about a unique situation in the UK where people running a business don't register their businesses formally and now are suddenly confronted by a different culture where having a company formally registered is the norm.

The issue is it isn't "simply registering a business", it's not just an issue of "getting a piece of paper", running a registered company in the UK comes with significant recurring administrative overhead. It is both unnecessary and disproportionate for many small businesses which is precisely why there are so many sole traders in the UK. Of the 6 million private sectors businesses in the UK 3.5 million are constituted as sole traders, 414,000 are partnerships and only 2 million are operated as registered companies. Of all businesses 2.6 million are registered for VAT or PAYE. (Source: Federation of Small Businesses)  That leaves something like half the actual businesses in the UK as "not businesses" by Keysight's criteria (possession of a "business licence" or VAT registration). The fact that there is not such a thing as a "business licence" in the UK indicates that this policy is being driven by someone who has no idea what they are doing, and that someone more senior is letting them set policy they evidently aren't competent to set.

Incurring a significant overhead just to meet Keysight's criteria for what constitutes an "official business" when all that business' existing customers and the UK tax authorities already regard it as a business is unrealistic. Doing this to someone after you've already taken their money for the product is a step beyond that, venturing towards unethical. If Keysight expect an entire country's small businesses to fall into line to meet its expectations then it's in for a disappointment.

Given the current enthusiasm of politicians for finding a reason to bash US mega-corps, it's also rather foolish to hand them an excuse to do so. Imagine the headline in a red top newspaper - "Arrogant US corporation tells UK small businesses that they aren't businesses - refuses to do business with them.". I can imagine the scene in the US press office when they get the call from Damien Day on the Daily Bastard asking for comment on the article they're about to run. "Keysight didn't immediately comment when we put these allegations to them, but we could hear the sound of their press officer choking on his breakfast in the background.". It's now only a matter of time before that, or something like it happens - and no, I haven't and I'm not about to tip someone off. However, I do know of at least one place that regularly trawls the EevBlog forum for stories, I'm sure that it's not the only one.

[nctnico]

Regarding the Europe/VAT ID/non-business concerns, that's an area that I unfortunately can't help or circumvent/shortcut around the official channels/statements. If I could I would 100% have done it already.

Is there any chance you can explain the reasoning behind the change? Keysight's position isn't great, but it would be more palatable if we at least had a reason why. It would be fantastic if you could provide a list of the required criteria for classing a business, but I know this will probably be a bit of a stretch.

What do you think about simply registering a business? I get the feeling that this thread is more about a unique situation in the UK where people running a business don't register their businesses formally and now are suddenly confronted by a different culture where having a company formally registered is the norm.

The issue is it isn't "simply registering a business", it's not just an issue of "getting a piece of paper", running a registered company in the UK comes with significant recurring administrative overhead. It is both unnecessary and disproportionate for many small businesses which is precisely why there are so many sole traders in the UK.

So all major corporations should change due to the UK having a half baked system that makes it difficult to register a small company? Assuming your statement about the administrative overhead is actually true (IOW: taking more than 1 day per year to fill in and costing more than say around 300 pounds).

Maybe start hammering the UK government to have some official 'sole trader' status. I see that it is possible to apply for a company VAT ID without much hassle in the UK; that could be a good starting point.

[bd139]

When in Rome do as Romans do.

300 GBP and a whole bunch of admin which you’re downplaying on the complexity and risk front to get an account at a manufacturer so you can buy their stuff? Can piss off quite frankly. Your point makes no sense at all.

[floobydust]

Keysight Technologies $6.6 million settlement Aug.9,2021 for violations of Arms Export Control Act. Exporting radar testing S/W to Russia and china and Canada. The other stuff to Iran was Anite's problem.
Signal Studio for Multi-Emitter Scenario Generation software (“MESG software”).

Point is Keysight does need to track some sales for ITAR and sanctions? But I can't see a 34470A as a threat, so selling to non-corporate entities is not a crime.

[YetAnotherTechie]

Here, registering as "sole trader" (which might not even be accepted by KS), but technically allows for VAT collecting, comes with a minimum social security contribution of >62eur a month, since it's presumed that you make at least minimum wage from your bussiness.

[Cerebus]

Regarding the Europe/VAT ID/non-business concerns, that's an area that I unfortunately can't help or circumvent/shortcut around the official channels/statements. If I could I would 100% have done it already.

Is there any chance you can explain the reasoning behind the change? Keysight's position isn't great, but it would be more palatable if we at least had a reason why. It would be fantastic if you could provide a list of the required criteria for classing a business, but I know this will probably be a bit of a stretch.

What do you think about simply registering a business? I get the feeling that this thread is more about a unique situation in the UK where people running a business don't register their businesses formally and now are suddenly confronted by a different culture where having a company formally registered is the norm.

The issue is it isn't "simply registering a business", it's not just an issue of "getting a piece of paper", running a registered company in the UK comes with significant recurring administrative overhead. It is both unnecessary and disproportionate for many small businesses which is precisely why there are so many sole traders in the UK.

So all major corporations should change due to the UK having a half baked system that makes it difficult to register a small company? Assuming your statement about the administrative overhead is actually true (IOW: taking more than 1 day per year to fill in and costing more than say around 300 pounds).

Maybe start hammering the UK government to have some official 'sole trader' status. I see that it is possible to apply for a company VAT ID without much hassle in the UK; that could be a good starting point.

You seem to be insistent that the mountain comes to you. It won't. Similarly the DNA of British business and administration is not going to change because you have deemed this to be "simple" to do.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I see that it is possible to apply for a company VAT ID without much hassle in the UK; that could be a good starting point.

The problem with that is that once you are registered, you must charge VAT on all sales & services, and submit returns accounting for it. If you mostly supply to business then registering is a no-brainer as you can reclaim VAT on all purchases, but if a significant market is individuals or non-VAT registered businesses then it basically means your prices go up 20%

[bdunham7]

Point is Keysight does need to track some sales for ITAR and sanctions? But I can't see a 34470A as a threat, so selling to non-corporate entities is not a crime.

I hadn't seen that latest case.  Yikes!

One thing that may muddle the issues, especially in some of the feeble-minded sorts that make some of these decisions, is the difference between sensitive technology and technology used in sensitive areas.  Case in point--my Simpson 270 case that an NSN-search sort of company declined to sell to me after enquiring about end-user status and so forth.  The Simpson 270 is still used today in some pretty sensitive areas--there are probably a bevy of them at Pantex (of course I have no direct knowledge of that...) and in missile silos everywhere.  So if you know that fact only, but don't understand that the characteristics that make it useful in that area are completely non-sensitive in and of themselves, you may conclude that you might get in trouble if you sell Simpson 270 parts to the wrong party.  And who knows--you might.  These are probably the same geniuses that feel the need to wipe the calibration data from analog oscilloscopes before they leave the building.

[Cerebus]

I see that it is possible to apply for a company VAT ID without much hassle in the UK; that could be a good starting point.

The problem with that is that once you are registered, you must charge VAT on all sales & services, and submit returns accounting for it. If you mostly supply to business then registering is a no-brainer as you can reclaim VAT on all purchases, but if a significant market is individuals or non-VAT registered businesses then it basically means your prices go up 20%

And you can get fined for making a late VAT return or failing to make a return (even if that return would be "0"), and if you fail to make a return the VATman may make up a number and then chase you through the courts for that tax or assign it to a collections agency.

[Saskia]

Regarding the Europe/VAT ID/non-business concerns, that's an area that I unfortunately can't help or circumvent/shortcut around the official channels/statements. If I could I would 100% have done it already.

Is there any chance you can explain the reasoning behind the change? Keysight's position isn't great, but it would be more palatable if we at least had a reason why. It would be fantastic if you could provide a list of the required criteria for classing a business, but I know this will probably be a bit of a stretch.

What do you think about simply registering a business? I get the feeling that this thread is more about a unique situation in the UK where people running a business don't register their businesses formally and now are suddenly confronted by a different culture where having a company formally registered is the norm.

This is absolute bullshit and you know it. Preparing and filing these VAT thingies without a tax lawyer is risky at best, suicidal if you don't know what you are doing.
Monthly filings plus a summary filing for the entire year easily amounts to at least a week's worth plus the tax lawyer charges. It also invites tax audits if your revenue is not according to the IRS expectations.

How much is your work worth to you ? Do you value your work at less than 300 quid per week (to just name a number)?
Do you have time for a tax audit (which will set you back at least 2 weeks ?)

If so, just check the field about the VAT deduction eligibility.

There is a reason that our authorities allow you to not check this if you are below 25000 € annually. They don't want to be arsed with the overhead. Neither does the small business owner.

Why I can tell ?
Because I just had this mishap and have to prepare all those documents. Furthermore you automatically have to pay accident insurance (at least over here), trade association memberships, etc.

Result: it is such a nightmare that I will in fact close my side business (which is all set up legally, even got my employer's permission ...)

Sure, I could just go ahead and file those, it's not a lot of work ...

Are we living on the same planet ?

[Cerebus]

Why I can tell ?
Because I just had this mishap and have to prepare all those documents. Furthermore you automatically have to pay accident insurance (at least over here), trade association memberships, etc.

Good point, I'd forgotten about mandatory insurance. In the UK there's mandatory Employer's Liability Insurance - in practice it's pretty cheap for a small business but it's another thing you can get into trouble for not having:

You can be fined up to £2500 for any day which you are without suitable insurance. If you do not display the certificate of insurance or refuse to make it available to HSE inspectors when they ask, you can be fined up to £1000.

I forgot about it because, ironically, the only reason I do business via a registered company rather than as a sole trader is that I needed Professional Liability Insurance and having a limited liability company makes this easier to get (for no apparent good reason) and my insurer bundles Employers Liability, and Public Liability Insurance with that policy.

[bd139]

Also worth throwing IR35 in here as well. “Disguised employment”.

I folded my company recently if I’m honest as I have gone permanent. Someone else can deal with all that crap.

[nctnico]

I see that it is possible to apply for a company VAT ID without much hassle in the UK; that could be a good starting point.

The problem with that is that once you are registered, you must charge VAT on all sales & services, and submit returns accounting for it. If you mostly supply to business then registering is a no-brainer as you can reclaim VAT on all purchases, but if a significant market is individuals or non-VAT registered businesses then it basically means your prices go up 20%

Well, you can also ask whether you want to run a business that stays well under the 85000 pound turnover limit forever? Maybe you can do this for a company that only provides services and still make a decent living but as soon as you need to buy goods then it is easy to hit that limit. In reality I doubt it is worthwhile to run a company fulltime that doesn't reach the annual 85000 pound turnover limit.

Sure, I could just go ahead and file those, it's not a lot of work ...

Are we living on the same planet ?

Yes because all the paperwork you listed exists on this side of the pond as well. It is exactly what I have been doing for over 25 years!
And you don't have to report VAT every month but every 3 months and in some occasions once per year: https://www.gov.uk/vat-annual-accounting-scheme. In Germany as well: https://www.steuertipps.de/lexikon/u/umsatzsteuer-abgabefrist Over here it is pretty much the same: In the beginning I reported VAT annually and when business grew it went to quarterly.

Filling in my VAT return & making the payment takes me less than an hour every 3 months. 15 minutes is more like it. The numbers come straight from my Excel sheet. Copy & paste into the website. Actually, my Excel sheet automatically calculates the VAT deduction as well (that also exists here but uses a complicated formula) but since working full time the number never got positive again. The same with the income tax, export amounts, import amounts, deductables, investments, etc. It is all nicely summarised using Excel.

The tax audits I was subjected to so far took about 2 hours. Just printed the Excel sheets and got the binders with incoming and outgoing invoices handy for inspection. Passed with flying colors each time. As I wrote before: accountants and tax lawyers like to make them look invaluable for your business. That is 100% true if you have a multi-million dollar/pound/euro company but for a one-man-band doing the administration part yourself is doable. You can find everything on your government's website nowadays. Unless ofcourse you think your time is worth more than you pay to an accountant to take care of it. The caveat there is that you'll still be responsible for whatever your accountant reports so you need to know about it anyway and be able to spot errors. The key is to keep a tidy administration which in the end is also benificial for yourself. I can see exactly how much money I made (hopefully), how much I still need to receive and how much VAT I have to pay.

Trade associations have ceased to exist for a while now over here (maybe a decade or so). Not all companies where required to be a member anyway (I never had to deal with trade associations for my computer & electronics related business).

Accident insurance is good to have. The first thing I took care of when I started working full time to make sure I have an income when I'm not able to work. Currently it is not mandatory over here but that is about to change which is a good thing IMO.

According to this page: https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/insurance/faq/is-professional-indemnity-insurance-compulsory-by-law/ Professional Liability Insurance is not mandatory by law in the UK with a few exceptions. The NL isn't much different in that respect and from what I've found it is the same in Germany.  Public liability insurance is handy for when you knock over a Ming vase while having a cup of coffee. In reality engineering work is almost impossible to insure where it comes to professional liability. Forget about that. You have to take care of that in your terms & conditions (and make sure a project's paperwork is in order including highlighting areas which concern safety issues; the customer has to sign off on those).

You have to be very careful to read the insurance policies offered because a lot of insurance companies like you to pay a lot for a professional liability insurance policy which covers absolutely nothing. For me the hardest part of getting the insurances in order was a plain & simple public liability insurance. The insurance I got in the end costs me around 125 euro per year or so for a coverage up to several million euro.

I realise that if you just start out it is a huge wall of paperwork but if you take it one step at a time and at least use a spreadsheet it is manageable. My administration spreadsheet is really simple: 12 sheets with money coming in (columns with total received, total to be paid and VAT), 12 sheets with money going out (amount and VAT),  1 sheet with quarterly summaries and a total, one sheet with an annual summary, one sheet with the exports, sheet with imports and finally one sheet with VAT numbers of clients and HS codes for products.

[tomud]

@nctnico

But what does it matter ?  You can run a business and not be a VAT payer not only in the UK. Such a thing is often profitable when providing services for people (not for companies). So here we have discrimination against companies that are not VAT payers (I have many friends who provide RTV / GSM repair services and they settle accounts this way because it is more beneficial for them).

For example, I myself have a company that is a VAT payer. I can buy equipment for my home (hobby) for the company (deducting VAT and income tax), the question is is this fair ? Therefore, so far I have bought hobby equipment privately.

Well, I wonder if something happens to the oscilloscope (dsox3054A) for which I paid a lot of money , the company will tell me "fuck off" and forget about repair (I'm talking about a paid service after a guarantee) ?

Something seems to be wrong here, since nobody said something like that when buying the equipment. Now at least I know to look for another multimeter, because I also wanted to buy Keysight (and it would be a big mistake).

I skip the whole discussion about who buys the equipment. In fact, if I would like to, in a few days I can set up a company for the homeless person I meet;) buy equipment and sell it to whomever I want... These are the Himalayas of the absurd - it is difficult to define otherwise.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I see that it is possible to apply for a company VAT ID without much hassle in the UK; that could be a good starting point.

The problem with that is that once you are registered, you must charge VAT on all sales & services, and submit returns accounting for it. If you mostly supply to business then registering is a no-brainer as you can reclaim VAT on all purchases, but if a significant market is individuals or non-VAT registered businesses then it basically means your prices go up 20%

Well, you can also ask whether you want to run a business that stays well under the 85000 pound turnover limit forever?

Plenty of people run a business as a sideline to a normal job

[KaneTW]

It's an absolute no brainer to VAT register if you're a sole trader, just purely from a financial perspective, unless you sell primarily to customers and the extra sales would make up for the 20% extra cost on supplies.

Returns are quarterly and the only effort on my part is putting them in a folder and maybe telling my accountant what kind of expense they are. Doesn't cost more than a couple hundred a year. Or you can do it for free for some extra paperwork.

[Cerebus]

It's an absolute no brainer to VAT register if you're a sole trader, just purely from a financial perspective, unless you sell primarily to customers and the extra sales would make up for the 20% extra cost on supplies.

Returns are quarterly and the only effort on my part is putting them in a folder and maybe telling my accountant what kind of expense they are. Doesn't cost more than a couple hundred a year. Or you can do it for free for some extra paperwork.

The point isn't whether it is or is not a good idea for the circumstances of a particular business. It is whether an existing business should be forced to do this, incurring ongoing costs and risks, just to get service from Keysight for a Keysight product that Keysight or one of their distributors has already sold them.

[Bassman59]

Point is Keysight does need to track some sales for ITAR and sanctions? But I can't see a 34470A as a threat, so selling to non-corporate entities is not a crime.

It doesn't matter what we consider to be, uh, interesting under ITAR. All that matters is what the people who decide such things decree.

[KaneTW]

The point isn't whether it is or is not a good idea for the circumstances of a particular business. It is whether an existing business should be forced to do this, incurring ongoing costs and risks, just to get service from Keysight for a Keysight product that Keysight or one of their distributors has already sold them.

Sounds like a matter for the lawyers to figure out the specifics of. Keysight's decision sucks but I'm sure it's not unprompted.

[tv84]

Let me organize a couple of ideas here:

1 - Keysight has all the power to make such a decision, regarding it doesn't go against any law. (Although I think this may put many KS resellers in danger of legal procedures, at least in the EU...)

2 - It's not a Keysight Germany decision. A decision of this type must have the approval at the highest level in Keysight. (If it doesn't then someone's head will be cut off.)

3 - Resellers could serve as intermediate servicing points and all would be good but most don't want to go that route or, at least, the customer won't want the hassles and to pay the extra of having a middle man.

4 - The VAT BS matter, because of creating a business for this, reminds me that occasion when we want to see a specific football game and subscribe to a premium TV channel. 6 months later we are still paying the subscription... 
In this case:
- "Honey, what are all these taxes and expenses with this company Calib_Me that we have been getting these last 6 years?" Husband answers: - "Oh darling, it's something I created to have my DMM calibrated back then..." 

5 - Daniel is a great guy  and, as many in many companies, goes the extra mile in providing official and personal support to any problem he sees he can do some difference, always defending his mother company. His message is a responsible message, well written and (IMHO) the only one he could write in such conditions. The "sense in the air" is that he isn't too comfortable (replace with agreeable if you prefer) with this decision. But it's truly beyond his powers. Don't take it hard on him, go through the official channels.

6 - Regarding what people can do: those that can/want to go the legal way in some specific cases, are entitled and encouraged to. To the rest I say this: we all have our powers also. Privately, be it our hobby or own business, we can choose to not buy KS as long there are other brands that can do the job. Secondly, and the most important since it's the one that surely calls KS attention, in our circles or influence or on our procurement/advisory positions inside each big company many of us work, we can advocate in not choosing KS because of the type of assurances this company provides to minor guys (one day, any one of us can be in the lower side of the scale). All the KS people that should be squeezed against the wall, are the account managers, sales directors and CSOs that come to our doors trying to push the maintenance contracts and all the new product lines! Those are the moments where they must explain their support strategy and/or balance it with a much lower price in order to convince us in buying the product/service.

The only thing that will make them listen: their wallet. If they continue to grow in numbers, no reason to rollback.

[6thimage]

In theory, I'm not against registering a business, but as others have pointed out, practically it is not worth the time, money and effort to do so - I doubt I'll ever make enough money from this side business to justify the overheads of registering for VAT or as a company, and if I do, that's when I'll register.

I have had a further email from Keysight:

In January 2021, Keysight changed it’s company policy when addressing the sales, support or services to consumers and/or private individuals. This includes the provision of technical support, repair, calibration services and the sale of replacement parts. Under this new policy, Keysight can only sell to businesses, and provide services under the terms of the warranty or agreement of the product. A business is considered registered with Companies House or has a valid VAT ID number.

So at least we have a date for when the change came in - were there any particularly large consumer law changes in 2020? It seems to be a little late for a reaction to the 2015 UK law.

[AVGresponding]

In theory, I'm not against registering a business, but as others have pointed out, practically it is not worth the time, money and effort to do so - I doubt I'll ever make enough money from this side business to justify the overheads of registering for VAT or as a company, and if I do, that's when I'll register.

I have had a further email from Keysight:

In January 2021, Keysight changed it’s company policy when addressing the sales, support or services to consumers and/or private individuals. This includes the provision of technical support, repair, calibration services and the sale of replacement parts. Under this new policy, Keysight can only sell to businesses, and provide services under the terms of the warranty or agreement of the product. A business is considered registered with Companies House or has a valid VAT ID number.

So at least we have a date for when the change came in - were there any particularly large consumer law changes in 2020? It seems to be a little late for a reaction to the 2015 UK law.

Well, that date is the first day of Britain outside the EU, so presumably it's some bizarre Brexit side-effect?

[Cerebus]

6 - Regarding what people can do: those that can/want to go the legal way in some specific cases, are entitled and encouraged to. To the rest I say this: we all have our powers also. Privately, be it our hobby or own business, we can choose to not buy KS as long there are other brands that can do the job. Secondly, and the most important since it's the one that surely calls KS attention, in our circles or influence or on our procurement/advisory positions inside each big company many of us work, we can advocate in not choosing KS because of the type of assurances this company provides to minor guys (one day, any one of us can be in the lower side of the scale). All the KS people that should be squeezed against the wall, are the account managers, sales directors and CSOs that come to our doors trying to push the maintenance contracts and all the new product lines! Those are the moments where they must explain their support strategy and/or balance it with a much lower price in order to convince us in buying the product/service.

Just that, with this addition. In deciding whether to purchase Keysight, even if you're unaffected by the current fracas, it is well to remember that what brought this to the fore is people who bought Keysight products in good faith, who are now being denied support by a change in Keysight's policies. By the way, Keysight could have had their new policy and avoided all this shit if they'd say "... but only for new sales. We will support products that we have already sold and are in the field."

What could happen to you if you are currently on the list of people that Keysight will deal with and then, after you've spent your money, they say "Sorry, change of policy, we won't support you any more."? More than anything else this is about Keysight reneging on the implicit agreement that if you buy their products you can get support for their products. It's equivalent to Ford selling you a car and a few months later telling you that you can only use their dealer network or get parts from them if you're a business - within their own narrow definition of business that excludes a significant number of existing businesses that they have actively marketed to.

The question when it's time for a purchasing decision will be "We've seen them pull the rug out from under some of their customers, can we trust them not to do it to us? Even if we think we're likely OK, do we want to support a company like behaves like that?". There are an increasing number of businesses that have "ethical purchasing" policies and this is the kind of behaviour that could fall foul of them.

I run a small, tiny even, consulting business but my clients can be very large. There is already one huge supplier that is now on my "will not recommend" list because of encountering exactly the same kind of dumb headed intransigence in dealing with their support operation - different issue but the same kind of "We're doing this our way, stuff you Mr. Customer, no matter what the facts are." attitude. The consulting contract I had at the time was with a division of a Fortune 500 company that had millions to potentially spend on their kit, you can figure the rest out for yourself - let's just say that the salesman from their main rival had a good year . Never, never, in business (or life in general) piss off someone or demonstrate to them how you'll screw someone over just because you think they don't matter, they may be much more important to your future than you think - most importantly, drum this into your most junior customer facing staff, they have the potential to do immense damage to your reputation by "just following company policy" in a rigid and intransigent manner.

BTW, "Company-name support lack of" turns out to be quite a good search term for spotting these issues with a potential supplier and is now damning for Keysight.