NanoVNA Custom Software

[jspencerg]

Good evening,  The graph comparing the original to the v2+4 had a line for the v2+4 which showed the multiple crystal effects while the original's line was a weak hump. Perhaps the labels got switched?
We hobbiests are benefitting from the NI home license and your efforts.  It's right give back some and update your version.  Labview and everything else is expensive.  I read these poor opinions about Labview, but I can't think of a better prototyping or research platform. Creating tools with graphical programming environment of Labview has to be faster/easier than python.
Thanks.

[joeqsmith]

Good evening,  The graph comparing the original to the v2+4 had a line for the v2+4 which showed the multiple crystal effects while the original's line was a weak hump. Perhaps the labels got switched?
We hobbiests are benefitting from the NI home license and your efforts.  It's right give back some and update your version.  Labview and everything else is expensive.  I read these poor opinions about Labview, but I can't think of a better prototyping or research platform. Creating tools with graphical programming environment of Labview has to be faster/easier than python.
Thanks.

I am guessing you're referring to: METAS_NanoVNA_V2P4_magphase.PNG
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/msg4018888/#msg4018888

I don't know what is meant by a weak hump.  The labels are not switched.   If anything, I would call the V2+4 the weak hump as it shows more attenuation than it should.   I also show how the original compares with my other VNAs.   I don't show the V2+4 in the other comparison plots because it is so poor.  Maybe copy the graph you are referring to into paint and add some circles or something to indicate what you are calling a weak hump.  To me, it couldn't be more clear but when your the one doing the work, everything seems clear.

Yes, I do see a lot of negative comments and misinformation on LabView.  It's not a big deal.  I just assume they are ignorant about it is all.  A lot of my time working on this software has not been coding.  That's the easy part.  A fair amount is spent doing research.   

Git doesn't provide many metrics to estimate the number of users but I doubt my software is very popular. Also, based on feedback, I estimate the majority of the people who have tried the software to be radio hobbyists.  There may not be any advantage for this group to move to a 64-bit platform.    It may take some time to accrue enough to cover the cost. 

Because it seems very few people took advantage of the manual, I doubt I will put any effort into a new one.   Its a lot of work just to have people asking basic questions that are covered in it.   Most likely I will make a demo video for the LiteVNA similar to what I did for the original NanoVNA and V2+4  and call it good.   

[jspencerg]

I'll review your original video about the crystals and study on it some more.  Thanks for extra details.
Thanks for writing the manual.  Real manuals seem to have gone out of style.  It's all online forums, posting/searching questions and reading faqs. I prefer a good reference. Let the community figure it out is the new support.

[DiSlord]

I prefer not do hardware mods (use for firmware tests only original hardware)

Last H/H4 hardware (v3.6) show more good perfomance in noise floor. But i compare old H and H4 and V2Plus4 (one year ago) in impedance measures vs Agilent 4294A in 2-30MHz measures.
My H4 can see max 7-8k and give bigger error on measure < 1Om, V2Plus4 allow see near 12k (but also exist errors on < 1Om).

Last beta Lite firmware contain AGC mode for S11 measures, it allow get more dynamic range (but exist small 0.04dB shifts due not linear opamp? on measure gain level change)

V2/Lite/V2Plus4 use one measure channel and switch for Reference/Reflect/Thru. On crystal measures this of course affects, but setting a larger delay does not solve the problem.
Reduce measures RBW (set device AVG or E0/E1 registers) allow get correct results (but use external sotware AVG not reduce RBW and not allow get it) i think need show/select measure RBW value (not AVG as now)

PS as i see main problem for Lite noise level on S21 measures near 85-95dB (but for cheap device all good, i hope Hugen can improve this in future), S11 measures show very good results.

[DiSlord]

Shown with the latest 64-bit software without any calibration using 10 averages (register 0x44 = 0x0a).

You mean 0x40 register (set average) ?
0x44 = 1 get only S11 measure
0x44 = 2 get only S21.

[gf]

V2/Lite/V2Plus4 use one measure channel and switch for Reference/Reflect/Thru. On crystal measures this of course affects, but setting a larger delay does not solve the problem.
Reduce measures RBW (set device AVG or E0/E1 registers) allow get correct results (but use external sotware AVG not reduce RBW and not allow get it) i think need show/select measure RBW value (not AVG as now)

I still struggle to understand what happed in Joe's V2Plus4 measurements.
How did the V2Plus4 achieve the 4-fold repetition of the filter shape at about +/- 4kHz and +/- 2kHz offset?
Do you have an idea why exactly this happens, or is it simply a bug?
(Do you happen to know the IF frequency of the V2Plus4? I wonder if the ~N*2kHz offsets are possibly related to it.)
Does the same repetition effect also happen with the Lite if RBW is not reduced? (my guess were, it does not - but I may be wrong)

0x44 = 2 get only S21.

But is reflection still measured then?
My understanding is that reflection is also required for the error correction of S21, if Enhanced Reponse calibration is used.
If reflection measurement is skipped, then these S21 readings were limited to simple response normalization calibration, right?

[DiSlord]

>If reflection measurement is skipped, then these S21 readings were limited to simple response normalization calibration, right?
Yes, but as i can see ER calibration not allow solve problems, just add more errors.

On V2Plus4 - i think related to internal DSP filter:
And how look narrowband measure
If use 10xAVG you also get this

Yes on Lite if not use RBW you see ~problems (less but see) on image red 2xAVG and blue on 10x

[Alextsu]

The last screenshot from LiteVNA shows a classical spectrum leakage from a DFT transform with rectangular windowing function, just an ordinary DSP filter artifacts.

[DiSlord]

Here my fw for V2Plus4, use all not related to measure functions as on Lite

Limits:
Not work power control in CW (registers 0x41 for SI and 0x42 for ADF)
If use big avg settings (register 0x40) possible get overflow on measures (and not correct results, max avg near 20-25)
Not work 0x44 register for control send channel data.

And main warning: new V2Plus4 hardware use different LCD modules, not supported by this firmware. As sources closed (and i not have this devices), i can`t add it.
On this devices work only CPU control, LCD display black. Install last firmware from official page in this case

Allow 401 measure/calibration points, calibration standard support, and all things added in Lite/H4 devices.

[joeqsmith]

Shown with the latest 64-bit software without any calibration using 10 averages (register 0x44 = 0x0a).

You mean 0x40 register (set average) ?
0x44 = 1 get only S11 measure
0x44 = 2 get only S21.

I have E0, E1 & 44 on the brain...  Yes, 0x40 set to 0x0A, nothing to do with 0x44.

[joeqsmith]

I'll review your original video about the crystals and study on it some more.  Thanks for extra details.
Thanks for writing the manual.  Real manuals seem to have gone out of style.  It's all online forums, posting/searching questions and reading faqs. I prefer a good reference. Let the community figure it out is the new support.

It's a bandpass filter, so we expect it to pass frequencies in the 3.68M and reject everything else.  This particular filter was designed to have a 1.5kHz passband.  My software will automatically place the cursors 3dB down (I'm lazy).   You can see from that first uncal screen shot, it's close.    See:   

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/RF-Filters.html

I programming the Lite with 1.1.01, and then ran the same 3.68M filter after calibration.  Shown comparing with the V2+4 and the original NanoVNA.  Only one of the three VNAs is even close and it happens to be the least costly and oldest.    Good to finally know this was not a limitation of the hardware.   

[gf]

I programming the Lite with 1.1.01, and then ran the same 3.68M filter after calibration.  Shown comparing with the V2+4 and the original NanoVNA.  Only one of the three VNAs is even close and it happens to be the least costly and oldest.    Good to finally know this was not a limitation of the hardware.

But here the Lite was much better. Very close to the Agilent and HP traces (only a higher noise floor). What is different now? Only other firmware, or also other E0/E1 and AVG parameters?

[joeqsmith]

Here my fw for V2Plus4, use all not related to measure functions as on Lite
...

Mine was supplied with "git-20201010-86c7055" which I was unable to locate.  There was mention of using ST-Link but looking at the PCB, there appears to be no test points to connect in.  Maybe the pads under the USB port.   It's not documented that I could find. 

Finding working firmware for the V2Plus was random luck.  I would be concerned that installing the last "stable" version would cause it to become unstable.  So unless I am able to locate the original image or a way to back it up, I will not attempt to run it. 

[DiSlord]

>Finding working firmware for the V2Plus was random luck
As i remember, you use my firmware version for this.

On V2Plus4 exist pads under USB connector

center left is SWDIO
center right is SWCLK
leftmost and rightmost are ground

Power must be from USB

[joeqsmith]

I programming the Lite with 1.1.01, and then ran the same 3.68M filter after calibration.  Shown comparing with the V2+4 and the original NanoVNA.  Only one of the three VNAs is even close and it happens to be the least costly and oldest.    Good to finally know this was not a limitation of the hardware.

But here

the Lite was much better.

Very close to the Agilent and HP traces (only a higher noise floor). What is different now? Only other firmware, or also other E0/E1 and AVG parameters?

That is correct.   You lost the context was all.  That post was an attempt to demonstrate to jspencerg that the setup will make a big difference for this measurement and it's not documented.  Its up to the user to somehow know what settings to use and the defaults are not what you want. 

My original software for the V2+ did not support changing any of these registers, including the firmware average.  It was up to the developers to make their firmware behave like the original NanoVNA to keep it backward compatible (thats assuming they want my software to work with it).     In other words, you can not use my released software to make these measurements with the Lite. (that assumes the Lite's firmware defaults remain the same)
   
My latest software loads the number of averages from the Defaults file (currently set to 1) but the other registers are set from a byte write function which will go away in the final version.  Once these are included in the released firmware, I will decide how best to support them.

****
Attached showing latest test firmware for the Lite with Avg set to 10,  1.1.01 firmware with average set to 1 and finally 1.1.01 firmware with defaults using my released software for the V2Plus4.   

I assume the defaults were chosen for some other metric besides narrow band performance.  I am not sure what but it shouldn't pose a problem in the future.   

[joeqsmith]

>Finding working firmware for the V2Plus was random luck
As i remember, you use my firmware version for this.

I would have no way to know.  It could very well be.  I posted about it here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/msg3615392/#msg3615392
They released a newer version after this and the problem returned.  I went back to that one hand picked version I stumbled onto. 

On V2Plus4 exist pads under USB connector

center left is SWDIO
center right is SWCLK
leftmost and rightmost are ground

Power must be from USB

Can you write up a procedure to back up FLASH?   

[DiSlord]

Larry Rothman made pdf from all interesting info from beta-test forum

I also write how restore V2 device on brick (and dump firmware) on page 13

[joeqsmith]

On page 14, was about the only thing close.  Is the size for the V2Plus4 still 0x40000?   So 0x8000000 to 0x8040000 would capture the entire contents? 

Should I also create an partial image from 0x8008000  to 0x8040000 to recover the application?   

I also note that the ST-Link is defaulting to 8-bit,  should this be changed to 32-bit and will the binary file that generates be compatible with the QT software to reload it?

[DiSlord]

Need dump fw from 0x8004000 (for V2/V2Plus) and 128k size or 0x08008000 and 96k size (for V2Plus4) you can upload it by any software.

Better also made full dump from 0x08000000 (include bootloader) but restore only from ST-Link

Save it as bin file.

For Lite you can dump current firmware to SD card from CONFIG->EXPERT SETTINGS->DUMP FIRMWARE (this also dump all settings/calibrations)

[nctnico]

Tried to get the software installed on Windows7 but the NI software won't install. Tried 4 different versions; I'm giving up. It would be so much easier if the NI software is included / bundled into the .exe file.

[joeqsmith]

Tried to get the software installed on Windows7 but the NI software won't install. Tried 4 different versions; I'm giving up. It would be so much easier if the NI software is included / bundled into the .exe file.

It is included/bundled.  You just failed to read the instructions.  It's a common problem and one I don't have a solution for.   While I have ran it on 7, that's as old as I support with that installer. 

****
Read the attached, or don't. 

[joeqsmith]

I added a header and was able to backup and verify the images.  I then used my software to load your new image.  I also tried restoring the original with no problems.   

That said, increasing the average using your firmware had no effect on the narrow band measurements.   (other than slowing them down)

I took a few pictures along the way. 

[nctnico]

Tried to get the software installed on Windows7 but the NI software won't install. Tried 4 different versions; I'm giving up. It would be so much easier if the NI software is included / bundled into the .exe file.

It is included/bundled.  You just failed to read the instructions.  It's a common problem and one I don't have a solution for.   While I have ran it on 7, that's as old as I support with that installer. 

I have read the manual! I went to the NI site, downloaded the 2011 SP1 (64 bit) installer, installed it and yet NanoVNA.exe tells me to install the 2011 NI runtime. Just for good measure I tried a few newer versions of the NI runtime but that didn't work either.

The manual says to get the runtime from NI and start the executable. That is what I did.

[cyp_eev]

I have read the manual! I went to the NI site, downloaded the 2011 SP1 (64 bit) installer, installed it and yet NanoVNA.exe tells me to install the 2011 NI runtime.

I think you need the 2011 SP1 32 bit Version

[joeqsmith]

Tried to get the software installed on Windows7 but the NI software won't install. Tried 4 different versions; I'm giving up. It would be so much easier if the NI software is included / bundled into the .exe file.

It is included/bundled.  You just failed to read the instructions.  It's a common problem and one I don't have a solution for.   While I have ran it on 7, that's as old as I support with that installer. 

I have read the manual! I went to the NI site, downloaded the 2011 SP1 (64 bit) installer, installed it and yet NanoVNA.exe tells me to install the 2011 NI runtime. Just for good measure I tried a few newer versions of the NI runtime but that didn't work either.

The manual says to get the runtime from NI and start the executable. That is what I did.

Read the manual?

10. Installation
The software will include an installer which contains the runtime engine only. No drivers will be included beyond NIVISA.

As of version 1.0 there are now two separate programs. One supports the original NanoVNA
and the other supports the new V2+. The installer, .INI, runtime engine and VISA drivers will
no longer be included. You may download these directly from NI, or just install the original
release of the V2+ software. Once these are installed, copy the executable files to your
directory.

10.3 Troubleshooting
Most of the problems seem to stem from user’s inability to follow the basic instruction. Some
of the more common problems are:
 Installing the EXEs and then randomly guess at which runtime is required. If they
manage to find the correct one, they are unable to get the software to communicate with
the device because they have not installed the correct VISA.
 Using the wrong software for the device.
 Downloading the installer and assuming the included 1.0 software is the latest available.
 Attempting to use different regional settings without changing the INI file. The
NanoVNA fails to respond when the comma separator is selected.
 Trying to use an unsupported hardware / firmware combination. If you like to fiddle
around reprogramming your VNA, the software is not well suited for you.
Do yourself a favor and read the readme file and manual. Of course, if you are reading this, I
doubt you ran into one of above problems.

I have read the manual! I went to the NI site, downloaded the 2011 SP1 (64 bit) installer, installed it and yet NanoVNA.exe tells me to install the 2011 NI runtime.

I think you need the 2011 SP1 32 bit Version

While the manual talks about running on XP (which it will) as I mentioned in the last few posts that I am looking into moving to 64-bit.  The older versions of LabView were too crippled to make any use of the 64-bit versions.

While the power user may attempt to install the correct runtime from NI to get the software working on other flavors, I don't recommend it.  As nctnico has discovered, unless you are familiar with LabView, that can present it's own set of problems.