Author Topic: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN  (Read 45512 times)

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Offline CopperConeTopic starter

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #175 on: July 28, 2018, 09:41:45 pm »
Why oil ? I guess they are not X/Y rated just really high voltage?
 

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #176 on: July 28, 2018, 11:36:53 pm »
They're just ordinary motor run / film-in-oil caps.....

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Online coppercone2

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #177 on: September 02, 2019, 04:00:06 am »
is it a better choice? (i found metal to finish the project box so new capacitors are in budget)

I assume the self healing is a trade off for performance otherwise?

maybe I need to get a DC for the VNA to test, it has been on hold

maybe a amplifier across ground shunt can read ground current and brighten if the capacitors are passing too much without connection?

i feel like it needs a integrity test button that does not require too much equipment. i have some weird ideas for its use
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 04:07:19 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Mangozac

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #178 on: September 24, 2019, 03:37:19 am »
I started building a LISN quite a while ago and have recently decided to get it finished off. I'm having issues characterising the impedance though, which seems to trace back to the 50uH inductor.

I custom wound an inductor based on the CISPR16 specifications, using 2.5mm cable so that we can test devices up to 20A.
Conductor Diameter:      2.5mm
Winding Pitch:      8.0mm
35 turns
Coil Length:      280mm
Corrected Inductance:      57.4654    µH    (supposed to be 50uH for CISPR16)
(From http://electronbunker.ca/eb/InductanceCalc.html)

842022-0

The problem I have is that in practice it's simply not measuring correctly. The impedance at 150kHz should be ~47 \$\Omega\$. Using a signal generator with 50 \$\Omega\$ output and measuring the voltage across the inductor I am getting an impedance of 50 \$\Omega\$ at 86kHz and 110 \$\Omega\$ at 150kHz. Using Xl = 2*pi*f*L these calculate to 92uH and 115uH, both way off the expected 50uH.

I've been racking my brain over this and the only potentially odd thing about my construction is the fact that I've used 7-strand copper wire, rather than single strand. I'm aware of phenomena such as skin effect but in the 150kHz to 30MHz range this is operating in I don't expect this to have an impact. The coil has the self resonance damping resistors soldered on in the photo but removing them makes no difference to the measurement.

Is there something obvious I'm missing?
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #179 on: September 24, 2019, 04:31:57 am »
Quote

The problem I have is that in practice it's simply not measuring correctly. The impedance at 150kHz should be ~47 \$\Omega\$. Using a signal generator with 50 \$\Omega\$ output and measuring the voltage across the inductor I am getting an impedance of 50 \$\Omega\$ at 86kHz and 110 \$\Omega\$ at 150kHz. Using Xl = 2*pi*f*L these calculate to 92uH and 115uH, both way off the expected 50uH.

...

Is there something obvious I'm missing?
It looks like you are not doing your calculations right. If you inductance is correct, then you will get about half the voltage across the inductor to the generator output voltage at about 86kHz.

At 150Khz, you should get a voltage of 1/sqrt(2) of the generator output. If you generator is putting out 1V, you should get 0.707V across the inductor at 150KHz.

I think you are forgetting that the inductor is not behaving like a resistor.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 05:17:53 am by amspire »
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #180 on: September 24, 2019, 04:38:34 am »
has anyone experimented with chassis size effects yet? I want to make a tight box but I have the option of making a 'air conditioner' sized thing with the coils floating away from walls supported on fiberglass rods.

the main problem is I don't want to cut/weld two boxes up, my project is on hold because of this.

i am worried it will effect inrush linearity/distortion (the main benefit of using air coils is that you can capture this with triggering, I think)

working on a general non metal test box atm
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 04:43:03 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Mangozac

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #181 on: September 24, 2019, 05:17:37 am »
It looks like you are not doing your calculations right. If you inductance is correct, then you will get about half the voltage across the inductor to the generator output voltage at about 86kHz.

At 150Khz, you should get a voltage of 1/sqrt(2) of the generator output. If you generator is putting out 1V, you should get 0.707V across the inductor at 150KHz.

I think you are forgetting that the inductor is not behaving like a resistor.
You're right, I've confused my reactance and impedance. AC analysis was never one of my strengths!

working on a general non metal test box atm
CISPR 16 specifies a metal case (and I recall comments that the enclosure contributes to the inductance). I suppose it has the added benefit of shielding from noise too. I had a custom enclosure fabricated from sheet metal for a cost less than AU$100.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #182 on: September 24, 2019, 10:48:34 pm »
yea I don't wanna pay anything for fabrication because I have pieces of an old storm shutter for a basement I can weld together but they can only be cut once. I am wondering where diminishing returns will be. Someone in this thread something like 10-20% change for a tight box, but how loose would it need to be (my coils are a bit undersized I don't want to rewind them).

Granted the 50uH is just a suggestion lol, I also thought about building it in such a way so the coils and everything can be extracted easily from the enclosure so a non enclosure verification can be performed but since impedance changes its a bit shitty

this project is so utterly useless to me that I don't want to pay a dime more then I Have to, none the less interesting but I see zero financial return from it ever unless you work in a engineering sweat shop, a real one won't even fall under a capital equipment budget class for decent companies.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 10:54:07 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Mangozac

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #183 on: September 25, 2019, 10:25:12 pm »
this project is so utterly useless to me that I don't want to pay a dime more then I Have to, none the less interesting but I see zero financial return from it ever unless you work in a engineering sweat shop, a real one won't even fall under a capital equipment budget class for decent companies.
I find it quite bizarre to be building such a specialised piece of test equipment that is of no use to you!

The only help I can give it to tell you that my enclosure is sized similarly to the dimensions in the standard and the difference between lid on or off is only small - less than 5%.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #184 on: September 25, 2019, 10:30:40 pm »
Sometimes I am very happy to make use of the scrap bin parts because it will keep growing and I get depressed thinking how everything is 'almost good'.. maybe its like playing tetris where I reduce the size of stockpiles...

I have seen too many threads where people threw out tons of shit that looks great. It's just something I noticed you can make with big old inductors, PVC scraps, etc. Usual horror story is 'i got tired of cleaning dust from this garbage over the last 20 years, fuck it'.

Motor salvage is the worst for this IMO. You need gearbox manufacturing ability/shaft fitting skills/spare pullies to make use of scrapped motors for useful purposes..

This thing eliminated spare PVC pipe, an old storm cover, many X/Y capacitors, unused outlets which do not look good, etc.. otherwise this will end up in a estate sale junk bin eventually.. normally these parts are too 'shady' to use in the things you like to do because of ware (i.e. old capacitors) but in the manner a LISN is used, it can be made 'safe enough'. (not left plugged in a corner for 10 years till it blows up when you are not home).. no one is going to leave a SA powered on hooked up to mains when they are not around...and usually those are the parts that look good to salvage (who does not want to remove a blue rectangle from a PCB that makes everything else seem like ants)?

I feel like when the LISN is deployed the atmosphere is tense and people are on guard (since its usually the conclusion to a big series of decisions that lead to something actually being put into a fucking BOX (holy shit its not a PCB on the ESD mat).. its kind of epic


but to play devils advocate, it is lame because you are not measuring against a mighty physical unit like the Volt or Hertz, but instead you are measuring something in regards to what goverment legislators came up with (i felt a bit better when I read about standards relating to the mono-pole E_field antenna but still, it came about because of a freaking war and radios interfering with each other within the limits of what people thought an attack bomber should look like within the limits of national resources and congressional decisions). I feel like mil-spec is a bit cooler but still it came down to what some bean counters thought was good rather then something fundamental.. .. 50 ohms.. why not 75 or 33 (whatever the other absolute point is).. there is nothing fundamental or theoretical about it, especially when you add the spread spectrum time-vs-absolute instantaneous RF power in the compliance spec.. 50 ohms kind of sucks.. then again you can get into how multimeters average PLC and it gets all ugly too.. is resistance the only noble measurement ?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 10:50:57 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #185 on: June 09, 2020, 03:17:10 pm »
Thread sounds interesting!
Was any progress made on the designs?
 

Online wilhe_jo

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #186 on: June 09, 2020, 06:25:13 pm »
BTDT, don't overdo the design.

Design to 55-60µH and self resonance over 1MHz.

Some Resistors (around 500 ohms) on every other oder every 3 windings will do the rest - ie. bring up the series resonances.

I did a LISN for 500A. Quite interesting project...

73
 
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Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #187 on: June 09, 2020, 07:55:25 pm »
Regarding the cored inductor discussion: Narda's 32A three phase LISN uses gapped ferrites in their design. According to their datasheet:

https://www.narda-sts.it/eng/products/lisn/l332/]https://www.narda-sts.it/eng/products/lisn/l332/]https://www.narda-sts.it/eng/products/lisn/l332/

It is a 250uH + 50uH design. However, I find it a bit unclear how they staggered the inductors. I guess the first two are part of the 250uH inductor and the third in the row are the 50uH inductor. However, optically the windings and the cores look identical. I did not have an LCR meter with me to confirm though. No inter-winding resistors either. Just Power resistors to the caps to ground and high value bleeder resistors.

Here are the teardown photos:
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmNJtRj4

Capacitors are simple motor film caps as far as I can see.

The lonly toroidal inductor on the input connects the mains earth to the chassis.

The RF coupling board is soldered to the plug directly and is interesting. Big X2 caps as expected, but then additional inductors, ceramic caps and, what looks like a three legged tantalum and another tiny inductor just before it goes inside the sma connector (hidden in the heatgunk).

The limiter and filter as well as switching are hidden in a soldered metal can. Can't open it since it is not mine.

Anyway, I thought it is quiet different from the other designs.


Edit: Formating, Link
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 08:16:11 pm by sixtimesseven »
 
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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #188 on: June 09, 2020, 09:21:14 pm »
Looks like a, maybe 3rd order, highpass to the RF port.  Not uncommon, keeps AC mains leakage away.

The 250uH choke likely doesn't need resistors as it's relevant at quite low frequency and impedance; the 50uH it can help.

On the LISN I made,



the toroids are input side filtering; the bricks (stacks of EE33 ferrite, gapped) are the 50uH chokes.  8.2uF + 4.7R is used to dampen/terminate the input side.  Not shown here, I also put a highpass filter on, which I think cuts at 50kHz or something like that, since this is an FCC Part 15 150kHz-30MHz network.

I measured the chokes for insertion loss / reflectance; their impedance remains quite high over the bandwidth, no series resonance mucking things up.  Just 14AWG hookup wire looped back and forth, nothing at all fancy.  Maybe Narda didn't need anything, either.

The main downside with ferrite cores is, the inductance drops fairly quickly above saturation current.  I rated these for, I think 20A peak, which isn't really all that much RMS current if you're testing a power supply with poor power factor.

Powdered iron is fine too, with the saturation being more gradual, but also being pretty deep (say -30% or lower) if you don't want to use a huge heap of them.  That can still be fine, but be careful calibrating it, and understand that LF noise in phase with current peaks may be attenuated more than you think.

Tim
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Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #189 on: June 10, 2020, 01:44:13 am »
Hi,

There is no need to over-think the LISN. This model shows how it works:





There are two models here. In the bottom model the mains impedance is stepped from 1m to 10k \$\Omega\$ and the impedance, green trace, seen by the device under test, DUT, is essentially the same. These two results are coincident on the graph below.
The blue trace is the impedance of the simplified LISN which illustrates that the capacitors are coupling capacitors.



The simplified model shows that the capacitors in the LISN are 'large' and only act as high frequency shorts and low frequency blocks.

The 50uH inductor defines how the impedance changes with frequency in the 100kH to 1 MHz range.
Since noise sources are typically low impedance, even variation in this has little effect on measured emc results

The requirement is that the impedance of the inductor is 'large' compared to 50 \$\Omega\$.

The second stage, the 250uH inductor is a line filter. It is to block interference from the mains side. It does not impact the impedance seen by the DUT.

It is traditional to build LISN with air cored inductors. There is absolutely no reason why cored inductors cannot be used, providing the inductors have sufficient inductance at the currents being tested.

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B
 
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Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #190 on: June 10, 2020, 03:41:09 pm »
Thank you Tim and all the others, this thread is great :)

Since various people have outlined that the design of a LISN can be found in the appendix of the CISPR document.. Is there a way to get to the document or at least some info without spending $ :wtf: for the original stanard pdf's?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 06:50:36 pm by sixtimesseven »
 

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Offline sixtimesseven

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Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #193 on: June 11, 2020, 05:26:03 pm »
the toroids are input side filtering; the bricks (stacks of EE33 ferrite, gapped) are the 50uH chokes.  8.2uF + 4.7R is used to dampen/terminate the input side.  Not shown here, I also put a highpass filter on, which I think cuts at 50kHz or something like that, since this is an FCC Part 15 150kHz-30MHz network.

I'm looking for ferrite cores and I noticed your (TDK?) EE33 cores are PC40 ferrite cores. Which means they have a fairly high BSat but the permeability drops after a few MHz and the material doesn't really provide much impeadance >10MHz or so?
My experience with ferrites is rather limited so I might have that wrong.

After some searching I found the 3C92 materials MnZn materials, which is available in E Cores which means they could be easily gapped and it has a from the permeability curve it looks like it should provide some impeadance up to 30MHz  :-//
https://elnamagnetics.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Ferroxcube-Materials/3C92_Material_Specification.pdf
Ups, loglog plot for the 3c92  :palm:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 05:27:58 pm by sixtimesseven »
 

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #194 on: June 11, 2020, 08:36:53 pm »
:-DD ... Nah, they're some oddball Chinese shape, and not a very good material.  I picked up a few flats of them years ago for almost nothing.  And it was some years later that I finally found a bobbin that fits them... obviously, not in stacks of a half dozen at a time, so this had to be glued up, regardless!

But yes, you want a high Bsat, 3C90 and such are good materials.

mu drops off at high frequencies, but note carefully the sign and magnitude that it takes -- it's a complex number, mu = mu' + j mu'', and it's dropping not quite inversely with frequency (which would be a -1 slope on a log-log plot).  The slope matters, because you multiply by frequency to get impedance, Z = j w L.  Typically, Z continues to rise, up to some peak frequency determined by core and winding geometry, at which point either the core stops being much impedance at all, or becomes capacitive, or more often the winding becomes capacitive.

That's also for an ungapped core.  The air gap is necessary to get the saturation amp-turns up.  It has the effect of lowering the curve overall, in the same way that negative feedback lowers the gain but widens the bandwidth of an op-amp (if you're familiar with that).  Air gap is essentially lossless, so the core overall has less loss (lower effective mu'') until a higher frequency, even if you're beyond the rolloff of the core itself (i.e. where mu'' > mu').

All in all, the choke performs quite well due to a combination of things:
- The core impedance is plenty high at these frequencies
- The winding isn't obnoxiously long -- though it is within the range of concern, but testing shows it's not a problem, which is great
- The system impedance is fairly low, 50 ohms, so an impedance on the same order is necessary to show much absorption/reflection

Tim
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Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #195 on: June 12, 2020, 12:58:07 am »
mu drops off at high frequencies, but note carefully the sign and magnitude that it takes -- it's a complex number, mu = mu' + j mu'', and it's dropping not quite inversely with frequency (which would be a -1 slope on a log-log plot).  The slope matters, because you multiply by frequency to get impedance, Z = j w L.  Typically, Z continues to rise, up to some peak frequency determined by core and winding geometry, at which point either the core stops being much impedance at all, or becomes capacitive, or more often the winding becomes capacitive.

Ups, yeah so the j*mu"" * jwL0 is again real (which makes sense since the mu'' is the lossy component used in emi ferrites). And the complex part tapers off much more gradually and I guess wasn't plotted further since it is PC40 is intended as inductive material and mu'' isn't really interesting for efficient storage.

As far as I understand an air gap works because the flux which is proportional to N*I, therefore the flux density grows slower than the inductance L=Al*N^2 which means lowering the mueff by increasing reluctance via air gap and then increasing N to compensate L still keeps B lower and farther away from Bsat than without air gap.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why the flux density seems to be only depended on the length enclosed by the field producing N*I. E.g. for a Toroid which is pretty close approximation to a UU configuration it is H=N*I/(2pi*r) and B = H*mu. But from this formula the area/volume of the Torroid does not seem to matter which must be wrong (looking from the energy side)  |O
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 01:00:00 am by sixtimesseven »
 

Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #196 on: June 12, 2020, 12:28:53 pm »
Found a calculator  ::)
http://dicks-website.eu/coilcalculator/

Current plan is to use TDK N27 material EE cores which I found were affordable, have fairly high mu as well as good BSat, MnZn so good for the 30MHz and available as E cores on Digikey. https://www.digikey.ch/product-detail/en/B66329G0000X127/495-5438-ND/3914754/?itemSeq=329242432

Stack of 3x EE with gap for the 250uH stage (21A ISat) and 1x EE with gap for the 50uH stage (27A ISat). When I know how many windings I can fit I might adjust the values a bit.


My shopping List:
16x B66329G0500X127 B66329G0000X127 EE Cores, 40 USD (for 1.7kg of ferrite  :-DD)

Coupling Capacitor
2x ‎R413N322050T0K‎, 0.22uF Y2 Cap, 3 USD

Filter raps and cap series resistors
2x C276CC34800AA0J‎, 8uF Film Cap, not X/Y rated like the Narda version ( :-//), 8 US
2x UB15-5RF1, 5Ohm, 15W‎, 7USD
2x SQP500JB-10R, 10Ohm, 5W, 2USD
2x ‎B32923C3105M000‎, 1uF, X2, 3USD

Discharge Resistors:
2x ROX8J27K, 27kOhm, 8W, 3USD
2x ERG-3SJ104, 100kOhm, 3W, 1USD

So roughly 70USD total.

I have a lot of 1.5mm2 PVC cables for the winding.

I also want to add some temperature cutoff switches, Fuses and holders at the input and a small choke for Earth to chassis. SMA / BNC connectors and possibly a switch which works up to 30MHz to select Line or neutral operation as well as switch in different coupling caps. 30Mhz is probably to much for a normal rotary switch but a bit overkill for a HF relay.

Case will be some sheet metal box. Small PC case maybe since it already has lots of holes for cooling.

Towards the SA the same transient protector / HPF as they used on the 5uH LISN + quiet a bit more attenuation.



Edit: Spelling, Links.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 01:59:07 pm by sixtimesseven »
 

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #197 on: June 12, 2020, 01:15:54 pm »
Hmm, the datasheet gives a different figure, mu_e = 198.  And that's for one gapped and one ungapped core, giving a total 0.5mm air gap.  Note that two gapped cores together will make 1mm gap!

You can gap much more, typically you want mu_e in the 20-60 range for best performance.  Should be able to get more amps out of those bad boys, though you won't be able to fit too many more turns on there with the insulated wire.  It's fine to add a gap with spacer material, cardboard, plastic, fiberglass, whatever.  Note that when you gap the whole core (center limb and legs), the air gap around the path is double the mechanical offset!

The relations for a core, or generally a known geometry to which these parameters apply, are:
integral V dt = N Phi = N B Ae
H = N I / l_e
B = mu H = mu_0 mu_r H
L in henry == V s / A = phi / I
L = N B Ae / (H l_e / N) = N^2 A_e B / (H l_e) = N^2 A_e mu H / (H l_e) = mu N^2 A_e / l_e
The mu A_e / l_e part of course is A_L.

When the path is inhomogeneous, we can define a mu_eff that includes l_e and l_g; this is what the calculator and datasheet above do.

A better way to think of it may be that flux density, and therefore flux through a given winding (and therefore, say for a square pulse, the voltage and duration), remains constant; by varying gap, you're varying what current is required to achieve that flux density.  Therefore as gap goes up, energy storage goes up.  (L drops proportionally, but energy goes as current squared, so energy is proportional to air gap length.)

There's some fudge to this, particularly at large gaps, where the fringing field becomes more significant (effectively, A_e becomes larger in the gap); or at low mu, where the leakage is high.  (For example, bunched turns on a low-mu toroid have higher inductivity than evenly spaced turns do.)

Transformer design is a bit easier than inductor design, because you only need to know flux, not magnetization; magnetization is intentionally very low (i.e., minimal idle current, maximum winding impedance).  To fully design inductors, you need to know how much ampacity is required, so the resistivity of copper is a factor, as well as the winding area and fill factor.  Sometimes the area double-product (A_e A_w) is listed in catalogs for this reason.  That, or you go back and forth a few times, adjusting gap, turns, wire size, core size or stack, etc.  The effort to solve it in closed form is kind of not worthwhile when you only have so many cores to choose from and you can just run the numbers on all of them. :P

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Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #198 on: June 12, 2020, 01:46:57 pm »
Hmm, the datasheet gives a different figure, mu_e = 198.

Oh wow, I did manage to copy the wrong part number in  |O
That mart number would be N87 N27, "pre-gapped" to 0.25mm.
Originally I meant: https://www.digikey.ch/products/en?keywords=B66329G0000X127

If you look at the calculator I used gaps more in the mm range. My idea was as you said to stick them together with double sided tape and cardboard or FR4 and wrap them with some heat resistant material. Fiber glass or some heat resistivity tape maybe to make the thing transportable.

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The effort to solve it in closed form is kind of not worthwhile when you only have so many cores to choose from and you can just run the numbers on all of them. :P

That makes it really difficult I found. There are so many different cores, materials etc. but then the choice is also limited by what is actually available and in stock.

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Transformer design is a bit easier than inductor design, because you only need to know flux, not magnetization; magnetization is intentionally very low (i.e., minimal idle current, maximum winding impedance).

Hmm, yes there is a MUe=1500 @ 320mT given in the core datasheet. The "actual" BSat i.E. where the core is totally magnetized would be much higher according to the Mu/B graph in the materials datasheet https://www.tdk-electronics.tdk.com/download/528850/d7dcd087c9a2dbd3a81365841d4aa9a5/pdf-n27.pdf. So I guess I can design with those numbers as kind of worst case estimates?

I could still widen the gap to lower MUe to a very low value but then I need lots more windings. The cores are not that big and when increasing the current even more wire diameter goes up even more. Unless I do multi turn but that is a bad idea.

Does magnet wire really make a lot of sense here? I mean temperature should not go up very much or I loose Mu at BSat. PVC insulation is good to 100deg which is more than the core should ever reach (because of Mu at temperature). Then PVC insulation takes up more space but also helps a bit to reduce inter winding capacitance. Downside is that it moves the conductor away from the core which gives some stray field but not much.



Edits: Many. Sorry.


« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 02:04:57 pm by sixtimesseven »
 

Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Staggered 50uH and 250uH inductor design for LISN
« Reply #199 on: June 12, 2020, 02:53:01 pm »
You can gap much more, typically you want mu_e in the 20-60 range for best performance.  Should be able to get more amps out of those bad boys, though you won't be able to fit too many more turns on there with the insulated wire.  It's fine to add a gap with spacer material, cardboard, plastic, fiberglass, whatever.  Note that when you gap the whole core (center limb and legs), the air gap around the path is double the mechanical offset!

I adjusted the Bmax=0.32 and the MUr=1500 to reflext the datasheet.
With 3mm air gag (so one layer of 1.6mm FR4 glued in) I get a MUeff=57. Number of turns increases to rounded 24 so in order to fit that I have to lower the wire diameter to below 1mm to fit it on the center of just one of the E's, or I still take 1.5mm2 cable and wind it on the bottom and top center of the EE core in a single layer which might just fit.

Current goes up to 35A so x1.5.

For the 250uH, multi turn doesn't mater that much? If I want to get >35A I need a 6.4mm air gap (which brings up fringe fields) and 43 turns and this with a larger wire diameter. Then I get an MUeff=30. Without multi turn I could "just" use 5x the 50uH core but from your previous discussions this seems to be overkill?
 


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