Author Topic: Bread Board Backers  (Read 34642 times)

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Offline Omega GloryTopic starter

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Bread Board Backers
« on: January 27, 2024, 01:58:14 am »
I recently watched this comprehensive review of different brands of breadboards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQJhe9n_ug. The conclusion was that BusBoard produces high quality boards, but I haven't found any with that metal backing plate with binding posts that you often see. I was wondering if anyone knew where one could buy backing boards with binding posts to mount these breadboards on.

Offline tatel

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2024, 02:51:52 am »
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/are-breadboards-from-cpcfarnell-(uk)-any-good/25/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/proskit-breadboards/msg5285377/#msg5285377

It's said you can get BusBoard from digikey/farnell. IDK, but it's said they have the best bang for the buck

Second linked thread points to some breadboards from ProsKit, said to hace phosphorous bronze contacts. They have backing plates with binding posts. But IIRC those backplates have been always plastic.

Probably the best ones I know of are K&H, first ones I had. Also had plastic backplates with binding posts. Nothing has been like that until I got Wisher. You can get them witk bacplates/binding posts.

Being in the US, you shouldnt have any problems buying any of these, except probably K&H. I dont know, maybe they are out of business.

If I could, would get K&H. Wisher is as good and easily available here so that's what i buy right now. BusBoard, perhaps I would buy if I need to put a Digikey purchase over €50 to get DDP incoterms.

Any other than that will probably dissapoint you. Don't skimp on breadboards.

Anyway, having those binding posts is a bit of luxury, I'm sure you know it
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2024, 03:36:05 am »
why not just get a bit of aluminum for the backplate, couple of holes for the binding post ,4 rubber feet ,job done.For extra bling  put a 90 degree bend in the plate and make  a selection of holes to give you somewhere to mount switches, pots etc
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2024, 09:55:58 am »
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/are-breadboards-from-cpcfarnell-(uk)-any-good/25/

The OP would benefit from thinking about all the points in that thread, including the references given.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline watchmaker

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2024, 12:19:17 pm »
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/are-breadboards-from-cpcfarnell-(uk)-any-good/25/

The OP would benefit from thinking about all the points in that thread, including the references given.

Two thoughts.  As tggzzz suggests, reading the posts on breadboards and alternative techniques is instructive.  First, as an alternative to your question, why not look at  https://www.assemblyspecialist.com/WebStore/breadboards.html which has been confirmed as making the 3M boards which are the highest rated.

Post breadboarding, the techniques championed by tggzzz and others are interesting and make sense. They show thinking outside the box.  I like the dead bug and Manhattan approaches.

But for me, the two approaches serve different purposes.  GOOD (yeah, I know) breadboards help establish basic skills and even wiring technique.  And beginners are less likely to burn up a component.

However, it is apparent that once you move into more than single transistor ckts other parameters come into play which the alternative techniques minimize.

And the cheap BB strips we bought can be repurposed for permanent or semipermanent ckts where they have been tested to meet the goal.

I agree, there is little sense in restricting your tool kit.

FWIW, I just ordered a BB from assembly specialist.  This thread and the redirects are very helpful.
Regards,

Dewey
 

Offline Omega GloryTopic starter

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2024, 08:51:40 pm »
Thanks guys! Those are all really good points and sources.

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2024, 04:13:04 am »
the bread board is invaluable for a circuit circuit catagory. Anything slow and analog or digilog that has complex functionality but does not have high SNR requirements (so some high speed circuits are fine) is best initially prototyped on a bread board. I highly do not recommend skipping over them and going to soldering because SOMEONE SOMEWHERE had a problem with a breadboard doing something beyond its capability, or they had a defective unmaintained or damaged breadboard at that.

bet you that most people that say its unnecessary will just guess that the 'simple' part of the circuit to them will work and that this part of testing is unnecessary, like its some kind of badge of honor  :palm:


this is just as worthy a investment as good test leads. Just buy the right type of wire (if you try to skim wire out of some crap then you will may end up as one of the misguided breadboard users that does not value its utility) and buy a few colors and some bending tools or even a jumper kit or 5.

and don't put 220's in it unless you make a adapter. And keep in mind you can modify them.


Power switches, rail indicator lights, high quality binding posts, binding post networks, screw down solid high quality rubber feet, fuses, high impedance taps and even screw terminals, coaxial adapters, spring clips for irregular tinned wires, are a valid thing to add to a breadboard (easy to screw or double sided tape (clean the surfaces and use good tape) to a larger development board) that exponentially increases its utility into the go-to lab tool for many circuits.

For instance you have a subassembly that has soldered wires in the end, that you want to test in a circuit, like a fan or pump or motor. If you have some spring clips anchored to the breadboard with jumper wire, you can easily hook up the fan to it, if its small.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 04:24:10 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2024, 08:26:04 am »
the bread board is invaluable for a circuit circuit catagory. Anything slow and analog or digilog that has complex functionality but does not have high SNR requirements (so some high speed circuits are fine) is best initially prototyped on a bread board. I highly do not recommend skipping over them and going to soldering because SOMEONE SOMEWHERE had a problem with a breadboard doing something beyond its capability, or they had a defective unmaintained or damaged breadboard at that.

Modern logic is not "slow"; even 1kHz (or 1Hz) signals have UHF and microwave components. Wire inductance is a classic cause of intermittant "unexplainable" errors.

Audio circuits (and even "DC" PSU regulators) can oscillate at RF. "Amplifiers oscillate, oscillators won't".

Even if you have perfectly clean and springy/undeformed breadboards and perfectly clean components, you still have the problems of basic physics. Stray capacitance and (particularly) inductance cause behaviour that a beginner doesn't expect[1].

Ignore the "I don't have problems therefore they don't exist" statements. Doubly so when those people have been using them for years and implicly aren't making beginner mistakes any more.

[1] experts utilise such effects as an implicit part of their circuit. (The observant will notice "Tektronix blue" in the photo below :) )

Here inductor L70 is the big "bent stirrup" coming from the valve anodes down to the PCB, and L69 is the small hoop of wire under the stirrup. Together they form a transformer - and you move that wire until you have optimum coupling. (Carefully: there's 125V on that stirrup!)




« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 08:31:32 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2024, 08:40:51 am »
in general a snooty goauld like system lord baal comes to mind when someone tries to discourage a newcommer to electronics from breadboards. I run into people scared to prototype simple stuff that can clearly be made functional on a breadboard because they worry about some crazy RF, leakage, etc issues. instead it stays theoretical in their mind for 6 months before they finally make a circuit board and fail because of circuit board manufacturing issues (it is under estimated how hard it can be to make a correct board just because it takes alot of experience to see your own mistakes before they get etched in china). I heard plenty of totally ludicrous things about how a circuit HAS to be implemented from new people in labs etc. they basically prevent themselves from learning and interacting with circuits because of preposition about signal integrity etc. once you see this kinda stuff in the real world it drives you crazy its like those future people from the movie demolition man  :-DD . Its not electrical engineering its speculation at a think tank by that point!

there is plenty of stuff that won't work on them too well but the amount of capability you get to throw some chips down (possibly soldered  to DIP adapters) in a short period of time to just see if something works is basically the fundamental principle of DIY electronics. Not to mention you learn about how circuits mis behave when they have too bad signal integrity if you stumble upon a threshold case.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 08:53:19 am by coppercone2 »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2024, 09:05:01 am »
in general a snooty goauld like system lord baal comes to mind when someone tries to discourage a newcommer to electronics from breadboards. I run into people scared to prototype simple stuff that can clearly be made functional on a breadboard because they worry about some crazy RF, leakage, etc issues. instead it stays theoretical in their mind for 6 months before they finally make a circuit board and fail because of circuit board manufacturing issues (it is under estimated how hard it can be to make a correct board just because it takes alot of experience to see your own mistakes before they get etched in china). I heard plenty of totally ludicrous things about how a circuit HAS to be implemented from new people in labs etc. they basically prevent themselves from learning and interacting with circuits because of preposition about signal integrity etc. once you see this kinda stuff in the real world it drives you crazy its like those future people from the movie demolition man  :-DD . Its not electrical engineering its speculation at a think tank by that point!

there is plenty of stuff that won't work on them too well but the amount of capability you get to throw some chips down (possibly soldered  to DIP adapters) in a short period of time to just see if something works is basically the fundamental principle of DIY electronics. Not to mention you learn about how circuits mis behave when they have too bad signal integrity if you stumble upon a threshold case.

That's not particularly coherent; it is too rushed.

Modern electronics is much faster than the stuff we learned on as a kid. What was sufficient the (e.g. TTL computers built using wirewrap) simply doesn't work with modern logic[1]. Recognise that, and act accordingly.

When a beginner finds a circuit that "doesn't work", they have difficulty determining whether the failure is due to a poor circuit concept/design or a poor circuit construction. It is easy to remove the "poor circuit construction" from that, so let's do it. Then they can concentrate on the more interesting and useful part: improving circuit concept/design.

Too often beginners are unnecesarily disheartened by avoidable problems.

[1] Let's say a beginner is making a logic circuit with a 1kHz clock frequency. What's the smallest time interval that they need to accomodate in their design and construction? Can't be too difficult at 1kHz, can it?

If using a jellybean 74lvc1g74 edge triggered flip flop, the data sheet indicates 0.5ns (th)and 1.6ns (tpd). If they simply couple output to input, that gives a mere 1ns margin. Yes, that's equivalent to 8"/200mm of wire, i.e. the length of a typical hookup wire on a solderless breadboard.

Oh yes, they also require monotonic clock signals - difficult with an 20-200nH inductor in their ground leads.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 09:16:13 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2024, 09:44:42 pm »
Well thats computer systems. I mean op amps, supervisors, monitors.. cheap transistor IC substitutes, the simple stuff (supposedly). Tons of stuff related to battery power systems too (extremely valuable skill now adays to make battery related circuits like charge metering, fault detection, etc).

we got a 15MHz XOR gate phase thingy running on a bread board before out of discrete parts. Terrible signal but it worked lol. The IC miniaturizes it by a factor of what 10000?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 09:47:25 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2024, 10:21:27 pm »
Well thats computer systems. I mean op amps, supervisors, monitors.. cheap transistor IC substitutes, the simple stuff (supposedly). Tons of stuff related to battery power systems too (extremely valuable skill now adays to make battery related circuits like charge metering, fault detection, etc).

we got a 15MHz XOR gate phase thingy running on a bread board before out of discrete parts. Terrible signal but it worked lol. The IC miniaturizes it by a factor of what 10000?

So you made an xor phase comparator on a solderless breadboard, and the signal was terrible? Sounds like you have a low threshold for success!

I have no idea what you might mean by "cheap transistor IC substitutes".

But most importantly, you appear to be constraining use of solderless breadboards for a small subset of things a beginner might use them for - especially excluding "computers" and logic!

In that case it would be more honest and considerate (to inexperienced readers) to explicitly state those constraints.


It is better to nudge beginners in the direction of simple, reliable, speedy, and easy prototyping techniques, than it is to mention techniques which have severe limitations with modern components (and even have problems with ancient components).

Unless a beginner only implements their circuits in LTSpice, sooner or later they will have to learn to solder. Might as well get them practicing on something simple where pretty joints aren't an issue.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2024, 10:24:10 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2024, 11:30:51 am »
Not again…  :palm:

tggzzz, I think maybe it’s been way too long since you were a beginner or had to teach beginners. Breadboards are invaluable for that. They’re not perfect, but they’re not nearly as bad as you make them out to be. All sorts of things work perfectly fine on breadboards, as shown by the gazillions of people who use them.

You claim to worry about circuits misbehaving on breadboards “discouraging” beginners, while ignoring the encouragement and experimentation they invite. Soldering is also a skill that must be mastered, and I think you forget that a beginner’s soldering sucks, so they can’t prototype with solder anywhere near as fast (and without damaging components!) as we can.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 11:32:52 am by tooki »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2024, 12:22:41 pm »
Not again…  :palm:

Same misstatements/mistakes lead to same response  :palm:

Quote
tggzzz, I think maybe it’s been way too long since you were a beginner or had to teach beginners.

No, another misstatement.

At my local hackspace I've recently taught absolute beginners how to create a 555 timer, manhattan style. By "absolute beginner" I mean "never picked up a soldering iron" and some were coming from an artistic background rather than a STEM background.

All successfully completed their construction, within three hours which included a talk/demonstration on how to solder, and alternative construction methods. Most completed it far faster. All appreciated the lesson :)

Including alternative methods enables discussion of characteristics and allows people to choose the selection best suited to their task. (Avoids the "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" mindset)

So, your contention is, to put it simply, false.

Quote
Breadboards are invaluable for that. They’re not perfect, but they’re not nearly as bad as you make them out to be. All sorts of things work perfectly fine on breadboards, as shown by the gazillions of people who use them.

You are falling into a standard trap: "selection bias". People that have had problems and were discouraged simply moved onto other things and aren't going to write about it.

Analogy: asking people that walk into roads without looking about their experiences :)

Quote
You claim to worry about circuits misbehaving on breadboards “discouraging” beginners, while ignoring the encouragement and experimentation they invite. Soldering is also a skill that must be mastered, and I think you forget that a beginner’s soldering sucks, so they can’t prototype with solder anywhere near as fast (and without damaging components!) as we can.

Soldering isn't difficult and is a generally useful skill - unlike solderless breadboards.

I believe in "throwing people off the deep end", but being there to make sure they don't sink. I've always avoided inflatable armbands in swimming pools, and training wheels on bicycles. I see how fast people learn to swim and cycle, and watching the delight on their faces is a joy.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 12:48:45 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2024, 05:39:07 pm »
Two thoughts.  As tggzzz suggests, reading the posts on breadboards and alternative techniques is instructive.  First, as an alternative to your question, why not look at  https://www.assemblyspecialist.com/WebStore/breadboards.html which has been confirmed as making the 3M boards which are the highest rated.

I still have all of the 3M boards that I bought in the 90s, but when I wanted more, I had to discover Assembly Specialists.

Breadboards are a low performance option with excessive parasitic elements, which could be considered a worst case construction method, which means that when I get a circuit working, it only gets easier.

Quote
Post breadboarding, the techniques championed by tggzzz and others are interesting and make sense. They show thinking outside the box.  I like the dead bug and Manhattan approaches.

I like the Dead Bug and Manhattan styles for the highest possible performance, but more often use point-to-point on punchboard.  I plan on building something like a precision abrasive radial arm saw or sliding table saw for cutting strips and squares of copper clad board to make constant impedance strips and pads which can be attached to a copper clad ground plane.  I have been thinking of unlimbering my old printed circuit board design skill and making a set of turreted pads to sell, but I suspect that market is sewn up.

Here inductor L70 is the big "bent stirrup" coming from the valve anodes down to the PCB, and L69 is the small hoop of wire under the stirrup. Together they form a transformer - and you move that wire until you have optimum coupling. (Carefully: there's 125V on that stirrup!)

I have one of those!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 05:47:40 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2024, 06:13:56 pm »
I like the Dead Bug and Manhattan styles for the highest possible performance, but more often use point-to-point on punchboard.  I plan on building something like a precision abrasive radial arm saw or sliding table saw for cutting strips and squares of copper clad board to make constant impedance strips and pads which can be attached to a copper clad ground plane. 

You used to be able to buy those strips. I was irritated when I tried to find some, only to find out they are no longer made.

I've wondered about checking whether the width of self-adhesive copper tape might be suitable, but haven't got around to doing the calculation let alone measurement. The tape adhesive is sometimes weakly conducting[1], so it would have to be on top of an insulator.

[1] for taping up cracks to reduce EMI, or separately for arts-and-craft purposes

Quote
I have been thinking of unlimbering my old printed circuit board design skill and making a set of turreted pads to sell, but I suspect that market is sewn up.

I like these: lots of pads for SMD components and the ends of stand through hole wired components, and a solid groundplane on the other side with lots of unplated holes so you can connect to the ground plane wherever convenient. http://www.busboard.com/surfacemountpcbs cheap iff you include the cost of your time.



I also like a dremel plus dental bur to hand-mill out islands on a solid groundplane plane. Just figure out where you need to plonk a lead, and cut the insulating gap. Fast and easy, but a beginner is unlikely to have a dremel plus bur.

Quote
Here inductor L70 is the big "bent stirrup" coming from the valve anodes down to the PCB, and L69 is the small hoop of wire under the stirrup. Together they form a transformer - and you move that wire until you have optimum coupling. (Carefully: there's 125V on that stirrup!)

I have one of those!

They are fun :) Hopelessly outdated, but fun to look at, and to understand how and why they work (and don't work).

They are also a beneficial demonstration (to beginners) that if you understand the fundamentals, you can push the technology to its limits. "Doing more with less", and all that.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2024, 07:23:03 pm »
Quote
Quote
Here inductor L70 is the big "bent stirrup" coming from the valve anodes down to the PCB, and L69 is the small hoop of wire under the stirrup. Together they form a transformer - and you move that wire until you have optimum coupling. (Carefully: there's 125V on that stirrup!)

I have one of those!

They are fun :) Hopelessly outdated, but fun to look at, and to understand how and why they work (and don't work).

They are also a beneficial demonstration (to beginners) that if you understand the fundamentals, you can push the technology to its limits. "Doing more with less", and all that.

I do not remember how I ended up with mine.  I picked up some replacement Nuvistors for it and the switches needed cleaning.  The 500 MHz output is not very good, but the only thing I could really measure it on would be my sampling oscilloscope.

Later I picked up a TG501 but I did not finish refurbishing it before I moved and now it is buried in a box somewhere.
 

Offline Omega GloryTopic starter

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2024, 07:23:42 pm »
I will say there is one other thing going for breadboards: Ease of reuse of the placed components. When I was a kid, starting out, $5 was a lot of money to me, and I really couldn't afford to solder parts unless I was committed to the design (yes desoldering is a thing, but it was messy for 12 year old me). A little later, when I got a bread board, it really opened me up to experimentation that I wouldn't have attempted before. These were really simple circuits I was working on, like hooking up a comparator to a photo resistor and using it to conditionally light an LED, and such. These days, when I want to prototype something more significant, I'll usually move to soldering on perf board, or throw together a PCB quickly, but it's still nice to have a small breadboard to temporarily test out a component or module in a simple setting. So while a breadboard might have significant disadvantages, I find it helpful to have one around occasionally.

One other prototyping method I used as a teen was wire wrapping, which I found a lot more convenient than point to point soldering or breadboarding. I used it when constructing this robot from a book from 1979: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/1970_s-robot/
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2024, 07:53:51 pm »
I will say there is one other thing going for breadboards: Ease of reuse of the placed components. When I was a kid, starting out, $5 was a lot of money to me, and I really couldn't afford to solder parts unless I was committed to the design (yes desoldering is a thing, but it was messy for 12 year old me). A little later, when I got a bread board, it really opened me up to experimentation that I wouldn't have attempted before. These were really simple circuits I was working on, like hooking up a comparator to a photo resistor and using it to conditionally light an LED, and such. These days, when I want to prototype something more significant, I'll usually move to soldering on perf board, or throw together a PCB quickly, but it's still nice to have a small breadboard to temporarily test out a component or module in a simple setting. So while a breadboard might have significant disadvantages, I find it helpful to have one around occasionally.

One other prototyping method I used as a teen was wire wrapping, which I found a lot more convenient than point to point soldering or breadboarding. I used it when constructing this robot from a book from 1979: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/1970_s-robot/

I too had to cherish new components, due to their cost and scarcity; I still have a few of them, out of sentimentality. I certainly couldn't have afforded a solderless breadboard! One technique "I invented" was to hammer copper nails into wood, and solder components to them. Advantage: the layout was the same as the schematic :)

I had to make do with scavenged components, desoldering them from PCBs. Hence I learned to solder and desolder early. I remember making discrete RTL flip-flops where I didn't have enough of the same value resistors and capacitors, so each flip flop was hand ccrafted. Not everything in the past was golden :)

When I finally had solderless breadboards available, I quickly grew to hate their limitations.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2024, 07:58:09 pm »
Quote
Quote
Here inductor L70 is the big "bent stirrup" coming from the valve anodes down to the PCB, and L69 is the small hoop of wire under the stirrup. Together they form a transformer - and you move that wire until you have optimum coupling. (Carefully: there's 125V on that stirrup!)

I have one of those!

They are fun :) Hopelessly outdated, but fun to look at, and to understand how and why they work (and don't work).

They are also a beneficial demonstration (to beginners) that if you understand the fundamentals, you can push the technology to its limits. "Doing more with less", and all that.

I do not remember how I ended up with mine.  I picked up some replacement Nuvistors for it and the switches needed cleaning.  The 500 MHz output is not very good, but the only thing I could really measure it on would be my sampling oscilloscope.

Later I picked up a TG501 but I did not finish refurbishing it before I moved and now it is buried in a box somewhere.

I too had to replace a nuvistor; it was surprisingly cheap. The 3-transistor divide-by-ten circuits were a pain to tune.

The 500MHz frequency multiplied from the 10MHz crystal is pushing technology hard, arguably too hard. I guess contemporary transistors had an fT that was too low to be useful.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 08:00:05 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tooki

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2024, 09:20:44 pm »
Same misstatements/mistakes lead to same response  :palm:
There weren’t any statements or mistakes made before you chimed in with your usual objections. Your anti-breadboard crusade is just… bizarre.

Quote
tggzzz, I think maybe it’s been way too long since you were a beginner or had to teach beginners.

No, another misstatement.
Not a misstatement, only a hypothesis.

At my local hackspace I've recently taught absolute beginners how to create a 555 timer, manhattan style. By "absolute beginner" I mean "never picked up a soldering iron" and some were coming from an artistic background rather than a STEM background.

All successfully completed their construction, within three hours which included a talk/demonstration on how to solder, and alternative construction methods. Most completed it far faster. All appreciated the lesson :)
So what? You taught them how to solder. That’s great. But if you’re teaching circuit theory, and want people to experiment and play around, breadboards have their place.

Including alternative methods enables discussion of characteristics and allows people to choose the selection best suited to their task. (Avoids the "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" mindset)

So, your contention is, to put it simply, false.
But your way of going about it is to make people fearful of the breadboard, and that’s just not fair, especially for beginners. A useful discussion of suitability means fairly presenting the pros and cons of each method, and your anti-breadboard sentiment makes you blind to their advantages. You invariably dismiss them as insignificant or irrelevant, and they’re not, and you similarly ignore the disadvantages of other methods that you prefer.

Quote
Breadboards are invaluable for that. They’re not perfect, but they’re not nearly as bad as you make them out to be. All sorts of things work perfectly fine on breadboards, as shown by the gazillions of people who use them.

You are falling into a standard trap: "selection bias". People that have had problems and were discouraged simply moved onto other things and aren't going to write about it.

Analogy: asking people that walk into roads without looking about their experiences :)
I am doing nothing of the sort. Selection bias is a violation of methods to achieve a representative sample; I wasn’t ever claiming to do a sample of any kind, never mind representative, nor any kind of data analysis at all. I said simply that plenty of people build plenty of functional circuits on breadboards, and that is true. I said nothing about success rates.

Not that your argument is any more concrete: your belief that countless people have circuits fail due to breadboard problems is also not supported by any kind of qualitative data. We just hear about the occasional problem. We don’t know how many people tried and failed. We also don’t know how many people never tried to assemble a particular circuit on a breadboard because their experience taught them it wouldn’t work on it anyway.

I ask you to remember that bias is a serious accusation, one you should be hesitant to throw out.

Quote
You claim to worry about circuits misbehaving on breadboards “discouraging” beginners, while ignoring the encouragement and experimentation they invite. Soldering is also a skill that must be mastered, and I think you forget that a beginner’s soldering sucks, so they can’t prototype with solder anywhere near as fast (and without damaging components!) as we can.

Soldering isn't difficult and is a generally useful skill - unlike solderless breadboards.
I disagree that it is useless, and I think it adds useful information to the learning process. But above all, it lets you decouple skills: you can learn or explore circuit design independent of soldering skills. It means you can focus on one thing at a time, which is often a better way to learn.

I believe in "throwing people off the deep end", but being there to make sure they don't sink. I've always avoided inflatable armbands in swimming pools, and training wheels on bicycles. I see how fast people learn to swim and cycle, and watching the delight on their faces is a joy.
Ah, so here is the crux of it: “throwing people in the deep end” pedagogy. That often works, but it’s also very frustrating to some people, and simply doesn’t work for all styles of learners. As I see it, your rigidity on the topic of breadboards is an example of you not recognizing or accepting that there are other, valid styles of learning than the one you prefer.

As a reminder, I’ve never said that you are wrong about the advantages of various alternative prototyping methods, only that you need to be more accepting of their place on other people’s benches, even if you don’t want them on yours. You need to loosen up your “my way or the highway” mentality that comes across as so dismissive.
 
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2024, 10:00:56 pm »
and soldering wrecks parts because if you are working you should use sockets as much as possible to keep your chips in tact particularly when they are expensive. If you breadboard you could resocket the chip in a PCB and it will be perfectly reliable. you are getting very specific if a DIP socket is causing you problems. Plenty of high end equipment uses them

You will lose 2.25 $ of passives on a board you don't feel like desoldeering vs $15 if you use a socket and can actually work on electronics instead of syphoning solder all day.  Desoldering can be utterly infurating even with the expensive tools. Using sockets is a no brainer.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 10:05:36 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2024, 10:28:43 pm »
Same misstatements/mistakes lead to same response  :palm:
There weren’t any statements or mistakes made before you chimed in with your usual objections. Your anti-breadboard crusade is just… bizarre.

Quote
tggzzz, I think maybe it’s been way too long since you were a beginner or had to teach beginners.

No, another misstatement.
Not a misstatement, only a hypothesis.

I accept that it was your hypothesis - a false hypothesis for the reasons I noted.

Quote
At my local hackspace I've recently taught absolute beginners how to create a 555 timer, manhattan style. By "absolute beginner" I mean "never picked up a soldering iron" and some were coming from an artistic background rather than a STEM background.

All successfully completed their construction, within three hours which included a talk/demonstration on how to solder, and alternative construction methods. Most completed it far faster. All appreciated the lesson :)
So what? You taught them how to solder. That’s great. But if you’re teaching circuit theory, and want people to experiment and play around, breadboards have their place.

Strawman argument. This topic is about the relative merits of different construction methods, not about teaching circuit theory.


Quote
Including alternative methods enables discussion of characteristics and allows people to choose the selection best suited to their task. (Avoids the "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" mindset)

So, your contention is, to put it simply, false.
But your way of going about it is to make people fearful of the breadboard, and that’s just not fair, especially for beginners. A useful discussion of suitability means fairly presenting the pros and cons of each method, and your anti-breadboard sentiment makes you blind to their advantages. You invariably dismiss them as insignificant or irrelevant, and they’re not, and you similarly ignore the disadvantages of other methods that you prefer.

You dismiss the problems beginners have with solderless breadboards as "insignificant or irrelevant" (to use your phrase).

Which bit of my statement "Including alternative methods enables discussion of characteristics and allows people to choose the selection best suited to their task." do you not  understand? (Highlighted above to emphasise the point)

IMNSHO (and that of other experinced engineers) beginners should be very wary of solderless breadboards' problems for the things beginners do nowadays with contemporary components. Small components and digital logic/MCU components specifically spring to mind, as do components from a store cupboard or with pre-used solderless breadboards.


Quote
Quote
Breadboards are invaluable for that. They’re not perfect, but they’re not nearly as bad as you make them out to be. All sorts of things work perfectly fine on breadboards, as shown by the gazillions of people who use them.

You are falling into a standard trap: "selection bias". People that have had problems and were discouraged simply moved onto other things and aren't going to write about it.

Analogy: asking people that walk into roads without looking about their experiences :)
I am doing nothing of the sort. Selection bias is a violation of methods to achieve a representative sample; I wasn’t ever claiming to do a sample of any kind, never mind representative, nor any kind of data analysis at all. I said simply that plenty of people build plenty of functional circuits on breadboards, and that is true. I said nothing about success rates.

Selection bias is usually unwitting, and often not recognised by the person making that error.

Quote
Not that your argument is any more concrete: your belief that countless people have circuits fail due to breadboard problems is also not supported by any kind of qualitative data. We just hear about the occasional problem. We don’t know how many people tried and failed. We also don’t know how many people never tried to assemble a particular circuit on a breadboard because their experience taught them it wouldn’t work on it anyway.

I remind you that I am discussing beginners experiences, not those of experienced engineers. Experienced engineers ought to be able to better exploit technology than beginners.

My anecdotal experience is seeing too many beginners having unnecessary problems and becoming discouraged.

Your "gazillions of people" statement is similarly anecdotal rather than based on numerical data.

Quote
I ask you to remember that bias is a serious accusation, one you should be hesitant to throw out.

Selection bias is usually unwitting.

Deliberate selection bias is disreputable, and I have not accused you of that.

Quote
Quote
You claim to worry about circuits misbehaving on breadboards “discouraging” beginners, while ignoring the encouragement and experimentation they invite. Soldering is also a skill that must be mastered, and I think you forget that a beginner’s soldering sucks, so they can’t prototype with solder anywhere near as fast (and without damaging components!) as we can.

Soldering isn't difficult and is a generally useful skill - unlike solderless breadboards.
I disagree that it is useless, and I think it adds useful information to the learning process. But above all, it lets you decouple skills: you can learn or explore circuit design independent of soldering skills. It means you can focus on one thing at a time, which is often a better way to learn.

Effective use of solderless breadboards requires beginners to think about advanced topics that they are ill-equipped to understand: that wires have inductance, that adjacent wires have mutual capacitance and act as transformers, unexpected feedback paths, contact resistance, etc, etc. Much better to avoid those (as far as possible!), so they can concentrate on their circuit.

All those effects are invisible to the naked eye; poor solder joints are easily seen and quickly corrected.

Decoupling skills is, as you say, useful. That is best achieved by (1) theoretical understanding of the key points, (2) modelling/simulation of those key points (e.g. using a Spice), (3) constructing and testing a circuit.

Quote
I believe in "throwing people off the deep end", but being there to make sure they don't sink. I've always avoided inflatable armbands in swimming pools, and training wheels on bicycles. I see how fast people learn to swim and cycle, and watching the delight on their faces is a joy.
Ah, so here is the crux of it: “throwing people in the deep end” pedagogy. That often works, but it’s also very frustrating to some people, and simply doesn’t work for all styles of learners. As I see it, your rigidity on the topic of breadboards is an example of you not recognizing or accepting that there are other, valid styles of learning than the one you prefer.

As a reminder, I’ve never said that you are wrong about the advantages of various alternative prototyping methods, only that you need to be more accepting of their place on other people’s benches, even if you don’t want them on yours. You need to loosen up your “my way or the highway” mentality that comes across as so dismissive.

Your statement are far more stridently black-and-white than that!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2024, 10:40:33 pm »
and soldering wrecks parts because if you are working you should use sockets as much as possible to keep your chips in tact particularly when they are expensive. If you breadboard you could resocket the chip in a PCB and it will be perfectly reliable. you are getting very specific if a DIP socket is causing you problems. Plenty of high end equipment uses them

You will lose 2.25 $ of passives on a board you don't feel like desoldeering vs $15 if you use a socket and can actually work on electronics instead of syphoning solder all day.  Desoldering can be utterly infurating even with the expensive tools. Using sockets is a no brainer.

I don't know the context for those statements.

The problems caused by sockets in "high end" equipment are legion; see any of the threads in the "repair" sub-forum! Standard operating practice is to check the power is on, check the PSU voltages and ripple, jiggle all PCBs in their sockets and ICs/transistors in their sockets, check capacitors.

You don't "lose" passives after soldering them. You simply desolder them and can reuse them in another prototype. I've been doing that for decades, and have recently reused some components I bought in the 70s!

Desoldering components from fully-assembled commercially-produced PCBs is a pain. I know, since many of the components I used as a kid were like that.

But desoldering components from a manhattan-style prototype (or similar) is trivial. That's a normal part of circuit reconfiguration while experimenting.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Bread Board Backers
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2024, 10:53:01 pm »
if you get cheap sockets but even a high quality socket is much cheaper then a chip. That is a problem with sockets that are 'economical' for mass production execs profit not machine pin sockets that are still <10% of the price of some chips you can get if purchased new from a electronics distributor.

15$ chip and 90 cent socket. Of course you can push your luck with a 5-10 cent tin plated who knows what socket (instead of bronze) from ebay

I was excited to save my money to buy some higher end op-amps and such when I barely had any money and they were treated quite well and even then it seems reasonable to use a digikey socket.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 10:57:32 pm by coppercone2 »
 


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