Questions about Proteus

[ebclr]

Hello fellow fake Russian

Sprint Layout isn't a joke, is a very fast cheaper and interesting program extremely well made. But everthing for you is a  joke bla bla bla bla

If you really do a board, and have used Sprint Layout you see that is easy fast and perfect for hand routing , KISS

[Simon]

Yes but i like autorouting too, I forget how I fell for thinking that sprint had an autorouter but basic functionality like a ratsnest were being listed as features....

and who's the fake russian ?

[nctnico]

I looked at Sprint layout's website and IMHO it is a very limited program. If you have a circuit with more than a few component you will want schematics editing etc so I think Kicad would be a better choice. But for anything serieus (professional) you'll need to spend a decent chunk money.

[ebclr]

The point there is usability, it's  fast and easy, Of course for anything more complex Altium is the way

[hammy]

It is limited, but somethimes the simplicity of sprint is the benefit.

A small circuit board, with not more than 10 componets, is very fast painted with sprint.
If the circuit is really simple and you do just a handfull boards during the year (or always the same boards) and your PCB manufacturer accepts sprint files directly ... it is a winner.

I know some amateur radio guys who use this program very successfully. For antenna switches or packet radio stuff.
A hobbyist and amateur level tinkerer should give it a try.

Not all people on this world are able to handle a programm like proteus, altium, orcad, Kicad, etc. The complexity is too high. But they are happy with software like sprint and they love their hobby.

So, why not? 
I encourage them to use it if it fits their needs!

Cheers
hammy

[wraper]

The point there is usability, it's  fast and easy, Of course for anything more complex Altium is the way

Fast? Unless it's a one 8 pin IC with a few other components, it will be faster in Proteus. And even then it would not be faster in Sprint, you can make very fast pcb without the circuit in Proteus either. I know this because used Sprint for a few circuits ~ 1.5 years ago, and can say it's a pain in the ass. If the design has any serious complexity, it will be very slow process to draw the board and then all will need to be verified by hand. Because of this, it's very easy to not notice some error and pass the defect into production.

[hammy]

Fast? Unless it's a one 8 pin IC with a few other components, it will be faster in Proteus.

No one will deny this. But a lot of hobbyist projects are just in that size. And if you design a pcb just twice a year you don't need more, even if a complex pcb would be created faster with a full scale software.

Sprint is, for sure, not a software a professional EE would choose. Something like Proteus is the better choice in that case. But hobbyists are a different target audience.

Anyway, let's talk about Proteus - the topic of this thread. Sorry for the derailment. 

Cheers
hammy

[ebclr]

Talking about Proteus

Proteus it's also a nice piece of software but have some problems

1) Extremely week library

2) Does not import export to other platforms , specially libraries

3) Frequently hangs

4) To expensive

Positive points

1) Very easy to sue

2) Nice simulator for processors

[wraper]

Talking about Proteus

Proteus it's also a nice piece of software but have some problems

1) Extremely week library

2) Does not import export to other platforms , specially libraries

Library is fine. But who remotely serious uses libraries of unknown quality anyway (unless wants the problems later). Footprints can be imported from Library expert.

3) Frequently hangs

If you use crappily cracked one.

4) To expensive

Depends on compared with what.

[electrolust]

4) To expensive

compared to what?  cheaper than eagle unless you need multiple polygon pours

[Simon]

Talking about Proteus

Proteus it's also a nice piece of software but have some problems

1) Extremely week library

2) Does not import export to other platforms , specially libraries

3) Frequently hangs

4) To expensive

Positive points

1) Very easy to sue

2) Nice simulator for processors

1) I'm not sure depends on what you want the library for. It's a pity you can't auto make a library using the passives of a particular manufancturer. But now my requirement for a library has gone from "a" resistor symbol to a symbol for every phytsical value used so that the BOM functionality works.

2) yes shame I really needed to take an eagle jpb on and modify it.

3) not so far but I am legal.

4) really ? yes to get fuller functionality for a hobbyist it's pricy and it's a shame they don't come ut of the through hole era and into surface mount where planes are essential. but it's much better than diptrace and is that bit more pricey as you would hope, you get what you pay for and if I ring up they are willing to help, diptrace effectively tell you to get lost and when you press them just say that they only have one main developer and that he has a family now.....

On the positive

1) I think you meant use, I'd dissagree, it's nothing like I have used before and the mechanics is seriously lacking. in order to do a PCB edge it is quicker and easier to use my cracked mechanical CAd package to draw a shape and import it as a DXF.

2) but you just complained about cost that's an added feature you have to pay seperately for.

[electrolust]

1) I'm not sure depends on what you want the library for. It's a pity you can't auto make a library using the passives of a particular manufancturer. But now my requirement for a library has gone from "a" resistor symbol to a symbol for every phytsical value used so that the BOM functionality works.

How would such auto-making work?  You'd still need to somehow inform Proteus of the part numbering scheme.  And even if condensed to a single symbol, you still have to enter the properties dialog to change the value and partno.  Choosing the distinct parts from the picker window may be easier anyway, not sure.

Anyway I believe you can do such auto-making using the dump and pack library commands, and some external scripting.  I can't find these discussed in the help nor can I find it in the forum (their search function is not so good), but I believe I read on their forum that the dump library will export a file per device in an ASCII format.  So you can write out a set of ASCII files then pack the library from that.

[ebclr]

What about circuitmaker.com ?

[Simon]

Well I made a footprint today and yes it was fast using the replicate comand.

[jpb]

I see Proteus 8.5 has just been released, though when you try and download the brochure the 8.4 one comes up instead.

The main new feature seems to be some sort of improved system for Arduino - presumably for education use. It also talks about GerberX2 output but I thought it could already do that?

[Simon]

It seems they have also just totally revamped their website and it's the most un-comprehensible thing I have ever seen. It looks like they are now only running 2 versions of Proteus a basic one and the professional one which puts the price up in both cases I surely hope that is just a lack of updating the website. I have just paid half a months salary to update to level II basic so that I have mechanical CAD output and custom copper pours I hope the next time I have to renew my subscription I'm not going to be told to upgrade to level 2+ at a cost of £1200. It seems the more you tell these people they are shooting themselves in the feet commercially the more they shoot themselves in the feet as disastrous as dip trace is you don't know how bad program is until you use it and it is now much cheaper unless they have raised their prices too. I can't even see how you download the demo now the website is just a total mess and hopefully that accounts for the program seeming to increase in price overnight.

I have indeed upgraded to level II now and am quite happy with the mechanical exporting capabilities. I'm not sure what practical improvements have been made to the program in this new release and the only way I have so far of applying it is to download it from the program itself. It seems they are putting a lot of effort into entry level staff to get people in like the Arduino staff to try and coherse new users but if they are now charging over £300 I think they can go and whistle for their new users particularly those coming from the free arduino camp. I don't see why i should have to pay through the nose for a program I want to use for serious engineering when they are more worried about writing software that helps people continue to pazy around with the ardino. If your marking a custom arduino PCB it's really time you just program the thing.

[ebclr]

Until have people to pay for sure they will do that

[Simon]

Until have people to pay for sure they will do that

Do what ?

[Simon]

After playing around a bit I have found the different licence versions. You have to click if you want standard or professional and then choose how many pins you want. Personally I find the thing very unintuitive once again they are shooting themselves in the foot. The previous method of just listing side-by-side the features was much clearer and easier to understand although I suppose it was also very clear to understand by how much you were being shafted because you have to go up to levels above the basic to get any real change in features. Nobody designed circuit boards that have more than 500 pins these days unless they are doing something so large they will warrant having the higher level licence anyway but in this case I have to pay for 2000 pins when I will rarely use more than 200 just so that I can get the features I need.

[jpb]

I agree that they don't seem to know who they want to target. They used to give good discounts to education I think (though much less so now) so perhaps they are adding features that are attractive to education (simple simulation of Arduino) in the hopes of getting engineers used to their products early. And similarly for hobbyists.

But I agree with you that hobbyists aren't going to be keen to pay even the base prices (the Arduino simulation is in addition to the standard starter price I think).

Whilst, as you say, people paying for the professional system won't be keen to see all the money going for developments that are not relevant to their needs.

Meanwhile, people like me sit on the fence not wanting to spend any money on a crippled version (in terms of the copper fills) but not wanting to risk the entry level price for the professional version because I'm a hobbyist not a professional user and can't justify the price.

[Simon]

I have already said to them that they should release a free version that does 50 pins rather than the current demo that does absolutely nothing. I have used 3 or 4 programs in the past and Proteus seems to be quite different from all of them where as all the others were vaguely similar in the workflow. This makes it very difficult to do a trial design from start to finish and create relevant libraries and footprints to see if the program will do what you want because you can't save anything, they could at least just lock out the ability to export Gerber's so that you can do a complete design and see if you are happy before buying. I only justify the expenditure because I am running a small business and even so it was a huge investment. I had to buy the starter kits just to see if the program was suitable so that was already £180 I may have wasted given that there is nothing else available it was a reasonable risk. As far as I'm aware the program has been pirated anyway so it's not like they are protecting themselves they are just making it more attractive for people to pirate the program has wants to pay money for something that may be totally useless. Personally I'm quite happy with the program but then I had a real incentive to get a decent program and I am further encouraged by the fact that one of our suppliers at work also uses Proteus and the work he does is a fine art so that is enough of an endorsement for me.

[electrolust]

Nobody designed circuit boards that have more than 500 pins these days unless they are doing something so large they will warrant having the higher level licence anyway but in this case I have to pay for 2000 pins when I will rarely use more than 200 just so that I can get the features I need.

[Emphasis mine.]

Sorry to say it, but you sound like the guy that complains about the Chinese taking away all the jobs then turns around and hacks the disposable Chinese scope you just bought.  I mean come on, if you don't like the program and the pricing, it's simple.  Don't pay for it and don't use it.

The fact is, Proteus is the best entry-mid level software out there right now and it's worth the price.

You want finer grained ala carte but Labcenter needs to pay their guys also so of course they are going to bundle.  Not everyone is going to need ALL the features of the next level up.  The pricing strategy is obvious and intentional and I think it's smart on Labcenter's part.  Does it suck?  Does it suck for your employer and your customers to have to pay you for your work?  I mean jesus why are they paying you for all your accumulated expertise when really they only need a smallish 10% fraction of it.

[Simon]

I mean jesus why are they paying you for all your accumulated expertise when really they only need a smallish 10% fraction of it.

In my case they don't!

The problem I have with lab centres pricing is that the next level or two only gives you more pins not functionality. It looks like they may have revosed that slightly on the new website and the pro starts with lower pins than the entry level ends so you can choose more pins or more functions but this has only just arrived.

[jpb]

The problem I have with lab centres pricing is that the next level or two only gives you more pins not functionality. It looks like they may have revosed that slightly on the new website and the pro starts with lower pins than the entry level ends so you can choose more pins or more functions but this has only just arrived.

I don't think this has changed at all. It was always the case that level 1+ had more pins than level 2. The prices haven't changed at all either. It is just the presentation on the web site that has altered.

[Simon]

The problem I have with lab centres pricing is that the next level or two only gives you more pins not functionality. It looks like they may have revosed that slightly on the new website and the pro starts with lower pins than the entry level ends so you can choose more pins or more functions but this has only just arrived.

I don't think this has changed at all. It was always the case that level 1+ had more pins than level 2. The prices haven't changed at all either. It is just the presentation on the web site that has altered.

I see well I stand corrected then. but I would have offered custom copper pours earlier on and left the 3-D model capability in the higher version as that way at least you are getting something earlier on. Ultimately anybody who is serious will need a 3-D modelling capability and so will end up with that version anyway or it could be an add-on as not everybody wants it and maybe some people will want 3-D modelling capability earlier on. It's just that when you looked at the old price list which is now gone so it's hard to make a side-by-side comparison it was very obvious how for the 1st 2 or 3 versions you got no more functionality other than more pins. As I said overall I'm quite happy with the software.