Professional Prototyping Hardware Defined (Breadboard, Jumpers, low R stuff)

[tggzzz]

In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

As for not all breadboards being equal... Agreed. The problems are identifying the better (not good) ones before purchasing them, and what happens if poor ones have been purchased (or become poor over time).

Well, it’s not hard to identify a good one: buy a 3M.

Wearing out is indeed the bigger challenge. Now, in my experience, even a fairly abused 3M still holds onto leads quite well. Others here on the forums have noted that they’re still using the same ones 30 years later.

I use a 40yo Tek 485, despite having more modern scopes. That doesn't mean I would recommend a beginner buys one!

Meanwhile, I’ve relegated most of the fleabay breadboards I originally bought to being little more than soldering jigs. Ain’t nobody got time fo’ 2 ohm contact resistance!

Often it is the varying resistance that causes "effects"!

P.S. I edited my post above after you responded to it, FYI.

Noted, understood, accepted. I've done similar things

[tooki]

P.P.S to my previous reply: one other thing you forget, tggzzz: soldering is also a skill that must be acquired and honed. If the first year apprentices had to solder each basic circuit they were learning, we’d be spending half the time soldering, and then debugging their soldering, before they could begin to get to the actual lesson. Plus, when soldered, simple mistakes become harder to fix, and components become harder to reuse. (In an educational setting, that’s a factor, too.) There’s no question that breadboarding is a great solution for this application.

Note that in the curriculum, construction methodology is its own course. In the theory courses, the students aren’t supposed to be learning/practicing how to solder. (And conversely, in the construction courses, they’re not meant to understand the complex circuits they’re assembling.)

And then somebody dropped some equipment onto the bench with a thump, and you had to figure out which connection had moved. Not my idea of a good use of my time.

If that was enough to cause a connection to move, then the breadboard was junk to begin with, or has been so horribly abused as to have merited throwing out long ago. A high quality breadboard that hasn’t been abused holds onto leads and wires tightly.

Those caveats are important. Ensuring they are valid is non-trivial in the real world.

I really don’t think they are, as long as you’re not starting with unknown eBay garbage. If you’ve started with a 3M (or Global Specialties, or one of the handful of established high quality manufacturers), it’s easy to notice if it’s gone bad.

There are easy alternatives with better performance and more repeatable results; not using them is somewhat peverse IMNSHO

Nobody is arguing that those construction methods don’t perform better. But you refuse to acknowledge their downsides, like being much slower to build (especially for a beginner) and costlier (since you’re generally not disassembling them afterwards), and you refuse to acknowledge the benefits of solderless breadboards.

A good engineer knows when to apply a given construction method. And part of getting to that point is experiencing how different methods behave. IM(also NSH)O, bumping into the limitations of breadboarding is itself a useful experience.

Again, remember that you haven’t been a beginner in a very long time. Those of us who have, remember the value of, and joy in, being able to plug in a couple of simple components and seeing a circuit come to life for the first time. And how much we learned from blowing up a transistor or LED, and being able to reconnect a wire in two seconds after seeing what we did wrong.

In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!! 

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

And though I assume (hope?) that you meant that comment somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it’s ultimately rather dismissive of actual beginners.

I use a 40yo Tek 485, despite having more modern scopes. That doesn't mean I would recommend a beginner buys one!

And completely irrelevant, as it’s a completely different type of tool. A new 3M breadboard bought today is identical to a new one made in 1975.

Meanwhile, I’ve relegated most of the fleabay breadboards I originally bought to being little more than soldering jigs. Ain’t nobody got time fo’ 2 ohm contact resistance!

Often it is the varying resistance that causes "effects"!

In a cheapie? Yup. But in a good breadboard like a 3M, it’s pretty darned consistent.

P.S. I edited my post above after you responded to it, FYI.

Noted, understood, accepted. I've done similar things

It was just a heads-up for context, and in case you wanted to address the added point.

[tggzzz]

P.P.S to my previous reply: one other thing you forget, tggzzz: soldering is also a skill that must be acquired and honed. If the first year apprentices had to solder each basic circuit they were learning, we’d be spending half the time soldering, and then debugging their soldering, before they could begin to get to the actual lesson. Plus, when soldered, simple mistakes become harder to fix, and components become harder to reuse. (In an educational setting, that’s a factor, too.) There’s no question that breadboarding is a great solution for this application.

Note that in the curriculum, construction methodology is its own course. In the theory courses, the students aren’t supposed to be learning/practicing how to solder. (And conversely, in the construction courses, they’re not meant to understand the complex circuits they’re assembling.)

Those are valid points. I've a little experience with getting absolute beginners started with construction and testing, but not as much as yours.

A counterpoint is that soldering is a useful general purpose skill for the rest of their lives.

Again, remember that you haven’t been a beginner in a very long time. Those of us who have, remember the value of, and joy in, being able to plug in a couple of simple components and seeing a circuit come to life for the first time. And how much we learned from blowing up a transistor or LED, and being able to reconnect a wire in two seconds after seeing what we did wrong.

Oh, I still remember it - and see it in other people. Examples: daughter and people in the local hackspace.
 

In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!! 

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.

In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.

Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.

And though I assume (hope?) that you meant that comment somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it’s ultimately rather dismissive of actual beginners.

Not intentionally; helping beginners succeed at new things is fun.

[tggzzz]

P.P.S to my previous reply: one other thing you forget, tggzzz: soldering is also a skill that must be acquired and honed. If the first year apprentices had to solder each basic circuit they were learning, we’d be spending half the time soldering, and then debugging their soldering, before they could begin to get to the actual lesson. Plus, when soldered, simple mistakes become harder to fix, and components become harder to reuse. (In an educational setting, that’s a factor, too.) There’s no question that breadboarding is a great solution for this application.

Note that in the curriculum, construction methodology is its own course. In the theory courses, the students aren’t supposed to be learning/practicing how to solder. (And conversely, in the construction courses, they’re not meant to understand the complex circuits they’re assembling.)

Those are valid points. I've a little experience with getting absolute beginners started with construction and testing, but not as much as yours.

A counterpoint is that soldering is a useful general purpose skill for the rest of their lives.

Again, remember that you haven’t been a beginner in a very long time. Those of us who have, remember the value of, and joy in, being able to plug in a couple of simple components and seeing a circuit come to life for the first time. And how much we learned from blowing up a transistor or LED, and being able to reconnect a wire in two seconds after seeing what we did wrong.

Oh, I still remember it - and see it in other people. Examples: daughter and people in the local hackspace.
 

In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!! 

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.

In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.

Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.

SMD components are another such new technology; to my surprise I now prefer them.

And though I assume (hope?) that you meant that comment somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it’s ultimately rather dismissive of actual beginners.

Not intentionally; helping beginners succeed at new things is fun.

[Siwastaja]

The point is, soldering is an essential skill to any electronic hobbyist or professional; you just can't avoid it because many parts just do not fit the solderless breadboard as-is.

OTOH, working with solderless breadboards is completely optional.

This means comparing between them isn't equal to begin with.

If it works for you better than soldering, then go ahead. Using the right tools helps. But I disagree with it being the "right tool" for almost anything. But I'll admit this is more an opinion than an indisputable fact.

But, if the solderless breadboard is working roughly the same (or even worse) than soldering iron, then, if you have a choice of having to use one tool to do everything, or swapping between two tools to achieve the same, I'd recommend using one tool and becoming very good with it. Use multiple different tools only when they offer significant benefits.

Similarly, professional chefs do not have a collection of dozens of different knives (as advertised on TV); instead, they have a few which they take good care of, sharpen every day, and can chop faster with the simple knife than using all modern gadgets available.

For electronic hobbyist or professional, soldering iron is this "knife". The simpler the tools, the more you can do with them. The more you use them, the better you get.

I hosted a university course about switched-mode converters, where the students prototyped buck and boost converters out of discrete parts and measured them. Obviously, not using solderless breadboards, but air-wiring the components. Not much actual wire was needed, either. Most had never used soldering iron. Yet with a little bit of guidance, the results were acceptable, including large thermal mass components, after about half an hour of practice. Getting from zero to a working buck converter layout was, I think, an hour average, or two hours worst case.

Measuring was quite easy because now you can probe the rigid soldered thing from every node without it getting apart all the time. This worked very fine for total beginners, IMHO, and I can't see how any type of solderless solution would be any better (especially given the layout requirements of switch mode converters). And it was this measurement and profiling step which took most of the time, say 3-4 hours easily to get it work and grab scope screenshots for a simple report. During this time, a few students needed to swap some parts or correct wiring mistakes - back to the soldering lab - but it wasn't a problem at all even with the irons being in the next room. And it's much better when you have the iron on your workbench.

And, now they can solder! The next thing will be much easier, as we evidenced when they converted the buck into boost.

[tooki]

P.P.S to my previous reply: one other thing you forget, tggzzz: soldering is also a skill that must be acquired and honed. If the first year apprentices had to solder each basic circuit they were learning, we’d be spending half the time soldering, and then debugging their soldering, before they could begin to get to the actual lesson. Plus, when soldered, simple mistakes become harder to fix, and components become harder to reuse. (In an educational setting, that’s a factor, too.) There’s no question that breadboarding is a great solution for this application.

Note that in the curriculum, construction methodology is its own course. In the theory courses, the students aren’t supposed to be learning/practicing how to solder. (And conversely, in the construction courses, they’re not meant to understand the complex circuits they’re assembling.)

Those are valid points. I've a little experience with getting absolute beginners started with construction and testing, but not as much as yours.

A counterpoint is that soldering is a useful general purpose skill for the rest of their lives.

It’s not a “counterpoint” when it’s something I’ve addressed in detail already.

But there’s a time and a place to teach each skill. You don’t teach ALL the skills at once. You teach one at a time, and at the right point in time. It’s why you start little kids with mixing salad dressing first before you teach them knife skills.

Nobody — NOBODY — is saying soldering isn’t a critical skill to learn. But it’s orthogonal to circuit theory.

In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!! 

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.

In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.

Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.

SMD components are another such new technology; to my surprise I now prefer them.

None of that makes you a beginner at electronics!! Those are all specialities. But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another.

Seriously, dude. You. Are. Not. A. Beginner. Pretending you are is just arrogant.

[tooki]

The point is, soldering is an essential skill to any electronic hobbyist or professional [...]

For electronic hobbyist or professional, soldering iron is this "knife". The simpler the tools, the more you can do with them. The more you use them, the better you get.

As I told tggzzz, nobody is claiming otherwise. But you can’t teach all skills at the same time.

you just can't avoid it because many parts just do not fit the solderless breadboard as-is.

THT component availability is the ever-growing downside to breadboards.

But again, nobody is saying to avoid soldering altogether.

Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!


Why are you guys so absurdly resistant to the mere concept of quick, solderless assembly being useful as an educational tool for beginners? You don’t seem to understand that you can’t expect absolute novices to know how to solder competently from day one. Nor that circuit theory itself is something that has to be learned. Attempting to teach someone both at once is, frankly, stupid. 

[Siwastaja]

Well, we actually experimented getting some total novices (when it comes to prototyping/construction techniques) to start with soldering-based prototyping/experimentation techniques from the get-go. I think it worked very well. The learning curve to usable results was approximately 30 minutes on average. Soldering wasn't difficult; we did not remember seeing much frustration at all. Quite the opposite; soldering task got a lot of positive feedback. Using an oscillosscope for the first time was an order of magnitude more difficult, though!

Honestly, my recommendation would be to start with soldering, as early as possible, even if it "feels" like a too big of a step first. It likely isn't.

If you still find use for solderless breadboards after that, fine, but I mostly fail to see the point.

Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!

Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.

[sokoloff]

Soldering on PCBs is like assembling scale models.
Solderless breadboards are more like Legos.

If you’re experimenting and not sure what you want to make ahead of time, Legos/breadboards are better.

If you know before sitting down what you want to assemble, want a higher fidelity outcome, and can afford the lead time required to prepare for that, models/soldered PCBs are superior.

There’s a place for both IMO.

[tooki]

OTOH, working with solderless breadboards is completely optional.

This means comparing between them isn't equal to begin with.

And something optional is therefore useless and/or ineligible to be weighed as an option? Absurd.

If it works for you better than soldering, then go ahead. Using the right tools helps. But I disagree with it being the "right tool" for almost anything.

It’s better for some situations. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands the concept of “situation”.

But, if the solderless breadboard is working roughly the same (or even worse) than soldering iron, then, if you have a choice of having to use one tool to do everything, or swapping between two tools to achieve the same, I'd recommend using one tool and becoming very good with it. Use multiple different tools only when they offer significant benefits.

I already listed some benefits of solderless breadboards. Please refer to them.

Similarly, professional chefs do not have a collection of dozens of different knives (as advertised on TV); instead, they have a few which they take good care of, sharpen every day, and can chop faster with the simple knife than using all modern gadgets available.

HELLO?! Do you think professional chefs are born as professional chefs?!?  No. Back here in reality, everyone starts as a novice and has to accumulate skill and experience. For a chef in training, it’s worthwhile to invest the time to learn professional knife skills. But they still have to learn them. And at the same time, they also have to learn other skills, like ingredient knowledge, heat control, and myriad other things, both theoretical and mechanical.

This analogy only proves my point: you don’t teach all those skills at once. You have classes on one, classes on another, and so on. As skills accumulate, you begin combining those skills. (Before that, someone more skilled will do some of it for you. For example, if you’re teaching how to cook steaks, they’ll give the student a cut steak, not an entire side of beef, because they haven’t done the butchering class yet.)


Like, seriously, do you guys not know anything about pedagogy?!?

Well, we actually experimented getting some total novices (when it comes to prototyping/construction techniques) to start with soldering-based prototyping/experimentation techniques from the get-go. I think it worked very well. The learning curve to usable results was approximately 30 minutes on average. Soldering wasn't difficult; we did not remember seeing much frustration at all. Quite the opposite; soldering task got a lot of positive feedback. Using an oscillosscope for the first time was an order of magnitude more difficult, though!

Honestly, my recommendation would be to start with soldering, as early as possible, even if it "feels" like a too big of a step first. It likely isn't.

If you still find use for solderless breadboards after that, fine, but I mostly fail to see the point.

I never said to not get people started with soldering early. Just not at the same time as teaching another skill. If you’re teaching theory, teach theory; if you’re teaching soldering, teach soldering. But you can’t teach both at once. Most people have limits to how much knowledge they can absorb in a given amount of time. So you focus on one set of knowledge you wish to impart at a given moment.

Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!

Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.

You have both insinuated this multiple times in this thread alone.

[tooki]

Soldering on PCBs is like assembling scale models.
Solderless breadboards are more like Legos.

If you’re experimenting and not sure what you want to make ahead of time, Legos/breadboards are better.

If you know before sitting down what you want to assemble, want a higher fidelity outcome, and can afford the lead time required to prepare for that, models/soldered PCBs are superior.

There’s a place for both IMO.

Thank you, a voice of reason.

I wonder how many famous architects got started with LEGO as kids, allowing their joy in architecture to blossom? How many engineers started with Mechano (or LEGO Technic)?

These other two here would be there taking the LEGO from the kid, tossing it in the trash as they watch, and saying “here’s some concrete and rebar, have fun!”

[tggzzz]

In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!! 

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.

In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.

Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.

SMD components are another such new technology; to my surprise I now prefer them.

None of that makes you a beginner at electronics!! Those are all specialities. But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another.

Seriously, dude. You. Are. Not. A. Beginner. Pretending you are is just arrogant.

No, it is a humble recognition of my lack of knowledge of this topic. I don't think you realise how different RF microwave is to the other stuff I mentioned.

For example, please define the relationships between signals at the entry/exit ports on these PCBs. The last one is especially subtle Assume there is a groundplane on the other side of the board. (Ohm's law doesn't even start to apply!)

[tggzzz]

Well, we actually experimented getting some total novices (when it comes to prototyping/construction techniques) to start with soldering-based prototyping/experimentation techniques from the get-go. I think it worked very well. The learning curve to usable results was approximately 30 minutes on average. Soldering wasn't difficult; we did not remember seeing much frustration at all. Quite the opposite; soldering task got a lot of positive feedback. Using an oscillosscope for the first time was an order of magnitude more difficult, though!

Honestly, my recommendation would be to start with soldering, as early as possible, even if it "feels" like a too big of a step first. It likely isn't.

If you still find use for solderless breadboards after that, fine, but I mostly fail to see the point.

Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!

Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.

That's pretty much my experience too.

I wouldn't start people soldering with my first soldering iron, though. It was literally a red-hot poker, and not useful for electronics

[tggzzz]

Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!

Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.

You have both insinuated this multiple times in this thread alone.

Saying "all crows are black birds" does not insinuate that "all black birds are crows".

[tggzzz]

Soldering on PCBs is like assembling scale models.
Solderless breadboards are more like Legos.

If you’re experimenting and not sure what you want to make ahead of time, Legos/breadboards are better.

If you know before sitting down what you want to assemble, want a higher fidelity outcome, and can afford the lead time required to prepare for that, models/soldered PCBs are superior.

There’s a place for both IMO.

False dichotomy; it isn't solderless breadboard or PCB. There are several very good and fast non-solderless(!) breadboard techniques.

Apart from that, for experimentation Lego/breadboards are often better than PCBs.

[Mecanix]

I am now working at a technical training center, where dozens of apprentices (almost entirely teenagers) come for classes each year. Breadboards are essential to lashing together the basic circuits used to learn electronics theory.

Thanks. Agree with your previous comment about being a tool of paramount importance for testing/simulating circuits in real-life (aka learning) more than being a professional tool to achieve bench-top prototypes. The former being partly the reason I am looking forward getting a breadboard kit although I wound't say no to a platform where I can also sign-off circuit functionalities before sending out gerbers.

Backing up a bit; I'd like to remind everyone that the frustration comes from being unable to find the right equipment/construction commercially despite a market being flooded with what appears to be "breadboard kits" sold by so called 'experts' - they are NOT, not even close. Talking about the incredibly high impedance, mechanical inconsistencies (contacts?), weak materials in their constructions and excessive low quality in general. Its as if our market players only wants to accommodate the blinky led hobbyist. Its just embarrassing that we do not have high-end (tested?) hardware available, if you ask me...

Disclaimer: I am by no means an electrical "Professional"/engineer, I'm a licensed mechanical engineer and entrepreneur in his early years, taken onto EE since nearly 12 months now and still tooling-up. I am officially pissed for having wasted time looking for something that I was convinced existed but didn't, and therefore passing all of that frustration back to "you all" 

[tggzzz]

I am officially pissed for having wasted time looking for something that I was convinced existed but didn't, and therefore passing all of that frustration back to "you all" 

A reasonable reaction

Don't worry about passing it back to us; we can deal with it. I regard this "frustration" as light relief

[tooki]

Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!

Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.

You have both insinuated this multiple times in this thread alone.

Saying "all crows are black birds" does not insinuate that "all black birds are crows".

Of course not. But you’ve both retorted about how important you think soldering is, which is the corollary of assuming I don’t think soldering is important.

Either way, I think it’s the mark of a bad engineer to bullheadedly dismiss something just because it’s not relevant for you.

In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!! 

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.

In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.

Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.

SMD components are another such new technology; to my surprise I now prefer them.

None of that makes you a beginner at electronics!! Those are all specialities. But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another.

Seriously, dude. You. Are. Not. A. Beginner. Pretending you are is just arrogant.

No, it is a humble recognition of my lack of knowledge of this topic. I don't think you realise how different RF microwave is to the other stuff I mentioned.

For example, please define the relationships between signals at the entry/exit ports on these PCBs. The last one is especially subtle Assume there is a groundplane on the other side of the board. (Ohm's law doesn't even start to apply!)

Again, you [series of expletives not suitable for delicate ears]: being new to a specific specialization  does NOT make you a beginner at the field overall!!!     

And please, drop the “humble” BS: nothing about your posts here has been even distantly humble. Nothing but haughty proclamations.

[tggzzz]

Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!

Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.

You have both insinuated this multiple times in this thread alone.

Saying "all crows are black birds" does not insinuate that "all black birds are crows".

Of course not. But you’ve both retorted about how important you think soldering is, which is the corollary of assuming I don’t think soldering is important.

Sigh. QED, I believe.

In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!! 

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.

In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.

Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.

SMD components are another such new technology; to my surprise I now prefer them.

None of that makes you a beginner at electronics!! Those are all specialities. But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another.

Seriously, dude. You. Are. Not. A. Beginner. Pretending you are is just arrogant.

No, it is a humble recognition of my lack of knowledge of this topic. I don't think you realise how different RF microwave is to the other stuff I mentioned.

For example, please define the relationships between signals at the entry/exit ports on these PCBs. The last one is especially subtle Assume there is a groundplane on the other side of the board. (Ohm's law doesn't even start to apply!)

Again, you [series of expletives not suitable for delicate ears]: being new to a specific specialization  does NOT make you a beginner at the field overall!!!     

That depends on where you draw the lines between "fields".

IMNSHO RF is very different. There are many concepts and specifications and tools that are basic in RF but which have no place (or even counterpart) in, say, audio analogue or digital logic or software - and vice versa.

Trivial examples off the top of my head: what are the spice models representing the copper traces in the pictures above? For that matter, what do those components even do? What do S21 and IP3 define? When and why would you us a harmonic balance simulator?

And please, drop the “humble” BS: nothing about your posts here has been even distantly humble. Nothing but haughty proclamations.

Oh, I am humble where I recognise areas where I know little - such as RF.

Now, how does ohm's law relate to those components pictured? (Remember you wrote "But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another")

[TheUnnamedNewbie]

Now, how does ohm's law relate to those components pictured? (Remember you wrote "But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another")

I mean, technically speaking, Ohm's law is related to Maxwell's equations. It still applies to the currents and voltages flowing through those components, it's just that you really need to look at an infinitesimal length of the track (and then integrate) to not have issues with the wavelength nature of the signals.

But I'll let you two get on with your discussion 

[tggzzz]

Now, how does ohm's law relate to those components pictured? (Remember you wrote "But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another")

I mean, technically speaking, Ohm's law is related to Maxwell's equations. It still applies to the currents and voltages flowing through those components, it's just that you really need to look at an infinitesimal length of the track (and then integrate) to not have issues with the wavelength nature of the signals.

But I'll let you two get on with your discussion 

Ohms law is based on empirical observations, published in 1827. Maxwell's equations are theoretical constructs published 50 years later.

So.... no

But Maxwell's equations are necessary  to analyse those components. No lumped equation simplifications allowed

[Mecanix]

Ohms law is based on empirical observations, published in 1827....

193 years later and they still sell Breadboard & Jumper Leads Kits that adds up nearly 1 bloody ohm on each conn/trace? wtf is going on, what went wrong guys? am I fully awake and reading this correct?!

[tggzzz]

Ohms law is based on empirical observations, published in 1827....

193 years later and they still sell Breadboard & Jumper Leads Kits that adds up nearly 1 bloody ohm on each conn/trace? wtf is going on, what went wrong guys? am I fully awake and reading this correct?!

Not quite. The parasitic inductance of a 20cm lead is around 170nH. At a mere 10MHz that is 10j ohms, at 100MHz it is 100j ohms - in other words the inductance dwarfs a 1ohm resistance.

[Mecanix]

Not quite. The parasitic inductance of a 20cm lead is around 170nH. At a mere 10MHz that is 10j ohms, at 100MHz it is 100j ohms - in other words the inductance dwarfs a 1ohm resistance.

Let me see if I can rescue one of those abominable BB and jumpers out of yesterday's bin and plug back that LCR on one of those whatever/kit/plastic/thing. Let's see what sort of "x" (reactance?) this is pulling out. Might get better luck looking for Breadsword & Pumper wires I have a feeling. 20cm; was convinced the custom 5cm awg22 leads I crimped yesterday (to get me out of trouble) were already way too long...

[KE5FX]

And please, drop the “humble” BS: nothing about your posts here has been even distantly humble. Nothing but haughty proclamations.

I think you may be missing a cultural idiom or two in this thread, Tooki.  tggzzz is not making a value judgement or sandbagging his own skill set.  He is referring to a general intellectual stance in which an expert, mindful of how it felt when they first entered their field, intentionally tries to replicate the same sense of empowering naïveté in new areas. 

This attitude is explicitly promoted in some companies like Intel, where even the highest level people are expected to spend a lot of time outside their comfort zones.  The idea is to look for places where your intellect and intuition can give you an advantage, but where your ego and reputation don't count for squat. 

In that sense,  an average EE who dives into RF/microwave work is in the same position as an ME who wants to explore EE topics.  Success in either case will boost your reputation, your ego, and maybe even your bank balance... at which point you look for the next thing to tackle as an amateur.

Also, the term 'breadboarding' dates back to when circuits were constructed on literal breadboards.  It can legitimately refer to any method of construction that uses any kind of substrate other than a printed circuit.  Dead-bug construction on bare copper is 'breadboarding,' just like sticking parts into spring clips in a nylon block.