JBC Handle & Cartridge Data

[DerDaniel]

Hello Everyone,

there are thousands of posts on the internet about JBC DIY projects, however I can't find a comprehensive list of data about the handles and cartridges and the information I can find are sometimes contradicting.

To make life easier for me and other who want to build a JBC based station, I would like to create a database that makes this information readily available.
The data I would like to collect about the handles are

• connector
• pinout

And for the cartridges I would like to collect

• rated voltage
• tested voltage (what people have reliably used without melting it instantly)
• rated power
• heater resistance
• thermocouple uV/°C
• pinout

For a common naming scheme of the cartridges, I would like to propose the depicted denomination.
For the tweezers the cartridges are named with the prefix A and B.
Heaters are non-polarized, however for better understanding I will use the terms heater+ and heater- for the two leads in some cases.




It is greatly appreciated, if people who have reliable information about cartridges and handles would share them in this thread. I will update the following tables with this information.

Handle	| Connector	| Pin 1	| Pin 2	| Pin 3	| Pin 4	| Pin 5	| Pin 6
NT105	| Binder 99 0995 100 05	|	|	|	|	|	|
NP105	| Binder 99 0995 100 05	|	|	|	|	|	|
NT115	| Binder 99 0995 100 05	|	|	|	|	|	|
NP115 / AN115	| Binder 99 0995 100 05 |	| A-C1, B-C1 |	| B-C3 |	| A-C2 (pos. half-wave), | B-C2 (neg. half-wave)	| A-C3 |	| 68k1 to Pin 1 |	| |
T245	| Hirose RPC1-12P-6S	| C1, green	| C3, red	| NC	| NC	| C2, blue	| NC
HT420	| Binder 99-0617-00-06	| A-C1, B-C1, green	| A-C3, red	| A-C2, blue	| B-C2, brown	| B-C3, yellow	| 330 Ohm to Pin 1
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|

Cartridge	| Volt (rated)	| Volt (tested)	| Watt	| Heater	| TC	| C1	| C2	| C3	| Note
C105	| 12V	| ?	| ?	| ~3,4 Ohm	| ~7-9 uV/°K 3)	| heater+	| tc+	| N/A	| heater- and tc- internally connected in series
C115	| 12V	| ?	| ?	| ~3,4 Ohm	|	|	|	|	|
C210	| ? V	| ? V	| ? W	| ~2 Ohm	| ? uV/°K	| heater+	| short to C1	| tc+	| heater- and tc- internally connected in series
C245	| 24V	| ? V	| ? W	| ~2,5 Ohm	| ~19-22 uV/°K 2)	| tc-	| heater	| tc+, heater	| 1)
C420	| 24V	| ? V	| ? W	| ~2,5 Ohm	| ? uV/°K	| tc-	| heater	| tc+, heater	| 1)
C470	| ? V	| ? V	| ? W	| ~7 Ohm	| ~19-22 uV/°K 2)	| tc-	| heater	| tc+, heater	| 1)
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|

¹⁾ The Seebeck effect of the heater alloy and the alloys of C2/C3 form two thermocouples (TC2, TC3) between C3 and C2, which combined are roughly equivalent to the main thermocouple TC1, but with opposite polarity. Hence cancelling out any Seebeck voltage measured from C1 to C3 if measuring from C1 to C2. See following equivalent circuit:


²⁾ Please see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/jbc-handle-cartridge-data/msg4611349/#msg4611349 for further information.
³⁾ Please see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/jbc-handle-cartridge-data/msg4652170/#msg4652170 for further information.

Please let me know if you have suggestions and improvements on the data that should be displayed.

PS: can anyone tell me how to add borders to the tables, the usual BBCode doesn't work.

[AccountRemovedPerUsersRequest]

Hello,

I just built one. Not because I needed a soldering iron, but I "needed" a project to run-in some new equipments and this sounded like a fun project. As you noted already, there are a lot of incorrect information. The attached image is about wiring and it is THE correct one.

A

FYI:
http://adgd.ru/2021/01/04/jbc-soldering-cartridges-pinouts/

[DerDaniel]

Hi axel,

thanks for the information.
For which cartridges could you confirm this, as I have read various posts where it is mentioned that the smaller cartridges (c120 and so on) do not have a "split" design, but the tc and heater in series?

[AccountRemovedPerUsersRequest]

Hi. This is for T245 you have on the table.

A

[gtm]

Quote from: axel15 on Today at 07:54:21

Hi. This is for T245 you have on the table.

And for the C420 cartridges (for the thermal tweezers)
The C420 cartridges are in fact C245 carts in all but name. The latter are a bit longer, but mechanically and electrically identical to the former.
I believe the same is true for the C210 and the C120 carts, but I can't confirm this 100%.

[DerDaniel]

Thank you bot very much. I modified the original entry in the table and added the C420 cartridge.

From both of your statements I assume you have C245 respectively C420 cartridges. Would you do me the favour and measure the heater resistance (and if possible the Seebeck Coefficient)?
And @gtm, do you know the wiring and connector of the HT/AT420 tweezers?

EDIT: Never mind, I found the data of the HT420 here: http://adgd.ru/2020/02/16/jbc-ht420-a-teardown/
This website has a lot more data on JBC cartridges! However the cartridge wiring displayed there doesn't match yours, axel. And he supports his argument with pictures of measurements. So would you be so kind and measure your cartridges again?

[AccountRemovedPerUsersRequest]

The heater element resistance of my C245770 is 2.517R (top most connectors)

A

[AccountRemovedPerUsersRequest]

However the cartridge wiring displayed there doesn't match yours, axel. And he supports his argument with pictures of measurements.

Please take a close look at the photos on the site. Especially the ones with temperature measurement. Pay attention to the DMM setup and diagrams.

A

[DerDaniel]

Please take a close look at the photos on the site. Especially the ones with temperature measurement. Pay attention to the DMM setup and diagrams.

The following are my thoughts to detecting the tc an heater on the C245/C470. Please let me know if there is an error in my assumptions.
A resistance measurement only tells us where the tc alone is connected. This is due to the fact, that the tc has an internal resistance of a few mR, which is in the range of the contact and cable resistance of the measurement leads. If a resistance in the Ohms range is detected, we can't know if it is heater alone, or heater and contact resistance, or heater and tc or ... . Hence ~0 R -> tc only, >0 R -> heater or heater in series with tc.
A voltage / temperature measurement only tells us where the heater alone is connected. This is due to the fact that the burden current of the voltage / temperature measurement is so small, a resistor with a few R doesn't change the voltage too much and we don't know if it is the tc alone, or tc in series with heater if the measured temp. is above ambient. However the heater doesn't generate a Seebeck voltage between the leads, thus it shows 0V / amb. °C if we connect the DMM to the heater alone. Hence amb. °C -> heater, higher temp -> tc alone or tc in series with heater.

Applying the above reasoning to your diagram we should see ~0R between C1 and C3 and amb. temperature between C2 and C3.
The picture http://adgd.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/img5_%D0%A1245.jpg shows 0R between C1 and C3, which corresponds to your diagram, ambient temperature is between C1 and C2 however. Hence tc is between C1 and C3 and heater is between C1 and C2. The polarity of the tc checks out, the tc- is connected to C1 in both your and adgd.ru's diagram.

I would appreciate it if you could show me any errors in the above reasoning, however if there are none, adgd.ru's  is correct.

[DerDaniel]

Expanding the previous assumption, we can verify the wiring of the smaller cartridges as well.

C210: If two pins show only a few mR resistance, we would expect a tc between those pins by the previous reasoning. However if we measure amb. temperature between the same pins, we can assume they are just a dead short. Hence the tc and heater must be in series between the two pins and the third and we should be able to measure both, a resistance and a temperature >amb.
By http://adgd.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/img4_%D0%A1210.jpg we measure a short and amb. temp. between C1 and C2, so these are shorted out. And as expected, between C1/2 and C3 is a resistance as well as a temp. > amb.
Polarity of the tc can just be assumed, as we don't know which of the leads goes into tc+ and which into tc- of the DMM. However following the previous wiring, C3 is most likely tc+.

C105: Well, there is just two pins, hence just finding the polarity of the tc and it's probably safe to assume C3 is tc+ again.

[gtm]

Unfortunaly I don't seem to be able to upload pictures.
There are pictures of dissected C245 tips that show how the Heater and  TC areconfigured in the way mentioned by axel15 [ Specified attachment is not available ]

[DerDaniel]

Thanks for the picture.
Before I go on and try to analyse it, one quick question: Are the measurements from adgd.ru correct? Not the conclusion and resulting wiring, but just the pictures of the measurements? Because otherwise I'm trying to draw conclusions based on false assumptions.

[AccountRemovedPerUsersRequest]

DerDaniel
There are so many pinout-images, wiring diagrams and schematics about JBC tips that I wanted to provide you the one that is correct since you're collecting this kind of information. What comes to measurements done by other people, I leave analyzing to you - if that is needed.

A

[Squantor]

Great that you are making such an overview, I have been hunting and gathering for such information too. Recently been looking in JBC nano soldering irons. Check out these links:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/diy-jbc-nano/
DIY JBC nano controller
Another project on Github

The connector on the station for the JBC nano is the binder 09-0998-00-05 https://www.binder-connector.com/en/products/subminiature-circular-connectors/bayonet-ip40/female-panel-mount-connector-4#0909980005

[DerDaniel]

OK, an equivalent circuit to this image, that takes all theoretical thermocouples due to different alloys into account, would look like the following:


Based on this circuit, the schematic from axel and the measurements from adgd.ru could be coherent for the C245 and C470.
If we assume that TC2 and TC3 combined have the same Seebeck coefficient as TC1, but with opposite polarity, they could very well cancel each other out when measured from C1 to C2.
Measuring from C1 to C3 and C2 to C3 would yield a temp. > ambient, as in both paths we have thermocouples.
Lastly, C1-C3 would yield ~0R, C1-C2 few R and C2-C3 few R as well.

Furthermore this would follow their patent design (https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1086772A2/en) and explain the smaller cartridges as well, where they probably went "Welp, we already have a tc over C2 and C3 with the heater alloy Seebeck coefficient and no space for two insulations, so lets just get rid of TC1 and make C1 and C2 one piece.".

Thank you guys very much enduring my questions and for the help!

[gtm]

I can also tell you that the C1 and C2 tubes look like the same metal, slightly ferromagnetic, maybe some sort of stainless steel?While the C3 rod is not ferromagnetic, so a different metal.We don't know what the heating element is made of, if it's made of the same as C1 C3 (or even C2) then it will be 2 internal thermocuples.I think it's going to be difficult to find answers to these questions just from taking R and V measurements.

[DerDaniel]

I can also tell you that the C1 and C2 tubes look like the same metal, slightly ferromagnetic, maybe some sort of stainless steel?While the C3 rod is not ferromagnetic, so a different metal.We don't know what the heating element is made of, if it's made of the same as C1 (or C2) then it will be 2 internal thermocuples.I think it's going to be difficult to find answers to these questions just from taking R and V measurements.

I highly doubt that the heater ans the tubes are of the same material, as you would loose a ton of energy in the fairly high resistive conductor of C1/C2 and just heat up the handle.

If C1 and C2 are in fact the same material, the material of the heater is irrelevant, as two series tcs of material A-B and B-C are equivalent to one tc of material A-C (as long as we stay in the linear region of the tcs).

To be honest, I don't really care what they are made of, as long as we've got a correct schematic it's fine. In the end every DIY project will have to calibrate the temperature according to their controller schematic anyway. But to have an idea of what opamp gain one will have to deal with, it would be nice to have a rough uV/°C number.

[gtm]

Quote from: DerDaniel on Today at 04:28:06

I highly doubt that the heater ans the tubes are of the same material

Sorry, I meant the same material as C3, the rod, or even C2 (less likely).
Both C1 and C2 could and look to be the same metal, though.

[gtm]

Quote

But to have an idea of what opamp gain one will have to deal with, it would be nice to have a rough uV/°C number.

In case it helps you to get a very very rough uV/°C number:
With my ANENG 8009, setting the temperature  30°C - 40°C above the target temp, removing the cartridge, and very quickly measuring the TC.
At ambient temp I get  ~ -0.01 mV from C1 to C3.
At about 230°C - 250°C I get ~ +6.5mV.

At about 100°C I get ~ +2.4mV.
So that's roughly about 25-30 uV/°C

[gabiz_ro]

For C245 I'm not sure heater is between C2-C3
I did some measurement on one new C245029 with results
C1-C2   1.9R
C1-C3   0.06R
C2-C3   1.9R
Don't have now any more precision tools to measure more accurate.
Since was not clear I did another test.
Set bench PSU to constant current mode and limit to 600mA then measure voltage drop on C1-C2 and C2-C3 I use one multimeter to measure voltage on cartridge pins.
Result was
C1-C2   1.288V
C2-C3   1.299V

To be sure no temperature will alter readings I let cartridge to cool down and measure again in reverse order.
C2-C3   1.297V
C1-C2   1.285V

2-3 mV difference from first readings
Lower voltage drop must be on heater
Higher voltage drop must be on heater series with thermocouple

Based on that seems like
C1 common
C2 heater
C3 TC+

Just tested again,similar results,now I use another multimeter to measure current too it was not 600mA but 625mA instead

[gtm]

Lower voltage drop must be on heater
Higher voltage drop must be on heater series with (hot junction of the) thermocouple

Wrong assumption. We're talking of a difference of a few miliohms between parts of different shapes, lengths, cross-sections and made of different metals.

[gabiz_ro]

So if I have heater element series with TC like this
A heater
B heater and TC
C TC

When apply external voltage (limited current)
Except B-C that make no sense to apply power to TC
When in case of A-B or A-C I get lower voltage drop?

[AccountRemovedPerUsersRequest]

For the reference, resistances between connection points (C245770):
C2-C3 2.569R
C1-C3 0.180R
C1-C2 2.749R

Earlier this thread one of the links was pointing to the GreatScott's project. I recommend not to use much of that information. There are errors in the design and the SW. The last minutes of the video confirms that in practice.

A

[oz2cpu]

>there are thousands of posts on the internet about JBC DIY projects

please:
how about some of you, who have made them, post a few links ?
so newcomers can go straight to the best and smartest and most complete DIY solution
you recommend ?

[tboy32]

Thanks for the pinouts so far. I couldn't find a diagram for the JBC AN115-A tweezers so opened up the one I have and came up with this: