Author Topic: Gan  (Read 2912 times)

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Offline IriliaTopic starter

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Re: Gan
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2024, 12:05:26 am »
AC to DC bench adjustable power supply (so the size and Heat is important) (efficiency) 0 to 100V 0 to 30A this is I think I good goal from the output of the power supply.

Linear regulation, of course, and passively cooled -- right?  ::)

I what point I was talking about linear regulations, this is the less efficient 🤔
 

Offline IriliaTopic starter

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Re: Gan
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2024, 12:06:12 am »
Don't waste your time on and other peoples time. You have no idea about all that and just guessing.

I think you should relax your goals quite a bit. A reasonable bench power supply is about 30 V 1..2 A.

The relays question:
maybe you've seen a relays on the output of an SMPS. But the relays alone will never protect an SMPS from surviving a dead short. As stated before, what you need is current mode control.

Thanks for your help, you are helping me a lot to progress in this project 😹
« Last Edit: September 03, 2024, 12:07:46 am by Irilia »
 

Offline IriliaTopic starter

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Re: Gan
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2024, 12:13:01 am »
Quote
Linear regulation, of course, and passively cooled -- right?
Who knows? OP creates combo with this regulator and soldering tools (hot air and soldering gun). May be this is a heater for them?  :-//

I have a heat pump way more efficient to heat a room.
More seriously I said efficient so it doesn't waste electricity to heat (when one of the module is not in use the power supply is totally disconnected)
 

Offline inse

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Re: Gan
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2024, 05:10:33 am »
Irilia, I would like to ask two questions.
What do you expect this discussion to lead to?
Did you design a power supply yet, what is your experience level?
 

Offline IriliaTopic starter

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Re: Gan
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2024, 06:03:34 am »
I'm beginner in designing circuit board, or complicated electronic. My goal was to get some information about the gan technologies, being a "new" technology not all the information are as simple to find.
 

Offline ArdWar

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Re: Gan
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2024, 06:17:00 am »
GaN(FET) is a MOSFET. It works exactly like any other (Si, SiC) MOSFET. Power supplies with it uses the same topologies with any other MOSFET. Any difference is minor (in general sense of things) adjustment for difference in gate voltages, and operating frequencies to exploit its strength.

For what it worth, personally I don't think GaNFETs give that much performance benefit over traditional silicon FETs. It has potential for higher efficiency at smaller size, but you aren't gaining much if you aren't size constrained.
 
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Online Andy Chee

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Re: Gan
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2024, 06:18:26 am »
As a beginner, the first thing you need to understand about GaN is why they are "better" (or worse) than Si MOSFETs.

For example, do you know anything about the trr specification of GaN vs. Si MOSFET? and the consequences for the design?

Many products don't use "GaN" as a technical feature, but as a marketing buzz word, much like Sega Mega Drive's "blast processing".  If this is the depth of your GaN knowledge, then I would delete this specification from your design requirements, and go back to basics.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2024, 06:24:11 am by Andy Chee »
 
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Gan
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2024, 06:28:12 am »
I think you should go to SiCFET instead of GaNFet
 
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Offline IriliaTopic starter

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Re: Gan
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2024, 06:50:40 am »
As a beginner, the first thing you need to understand about GaN is why they are "better" (or worse) than Si MOSFETs.

For example, do you know anything about the trr specification of GaN vs. Si MOSFET? and the consequences for the design?

Many products don't use "GaN" as a technical feature, but as a marketing buzz word, much like Sega Mega Drive's "blast processing".  If this is the depth of your GaN knowledge, then I would delete this specification from your design requirements, and go back to basics.

The size and heat is important is an important enough points in favor of Gan in this project, the space is not unlimited and I will prefer as much as possible to avoid having to add any additional cooling. The case are in aluminum, so it's basically a big cooler. Passive cooling is completely silent, but also avoid dust.

I don't need any marketing buzz word for an open source project.

I have to note I will have multiple power supply, and they are all insulated, from the main, but also from each other 😉
 

Online Andy Chee

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Re: Gan
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2024, 06:58:27 am »
As a beginner, the first thing you need to understand about GaN is why they are "better" (or worse) than Si MOSFETs.
The size and heat is important is an important enough points in favor of Gan in this project
Unfortunately, this is not enough information to favor GaN.
 

Offline IriliaTopic starter

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Re: Gan
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2024, 07:03:18 am »
As a beginner, the first thing you need to understand about GaN is why they are "better" (or worse) than Si MOSFETs.
The size and heat is important is an important enough points in favor of Gan in this project
Unfortunately, this is not enough information to favor GaN.

What other do you consider as being the advantage of Gan ?
 

Online Andy Chee

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Re: Gan
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2024, 07:06:41 am »
What other do you consider as being the advantage of Gan ?
GaN is advantageous in hard-switched applications, the most dominant one being bridge-less power factor correction, 99% efficiency.

GaN disadvantage is that hard-switching generates more harmonics/EMI, and therefore requires more/larger filtering and careful board design layout.
 
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Offline ArdWar

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Re: Gan
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2024, 07:17:14 am »
I mean, if you want to experiment with GaNFET then just buy some and build a design with it. No need to gatekeep here. You're lucky that they recently start to come in more sane package. Some even packaged with gate drive. External controllers are also getting more common. You can find some newer PWM controller to be released in two versions, ~5V Vgs for GaN and ~12V Vgs for Si(C).

However if you have zero experience with SMPS, it might be better to start with something simpler.
 

Offline inse

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Re: Gan
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2024, 09:43:32 am »
100% agree
and I think we should close this discussion
 

Online temperance

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Re: Gan
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2024, 12:07:49 pm »
The OP has this idea to build an open source tool called "The Station".

The OP has almost zero knowledge about how to develop "The Station" and as such he is now searching for horses to put in front of his cart. As a reward for your sweat and hard work your name will be mentioned on the webpage of the open source product.

Maybe I'm wrong (my beard starts to be grey) but I don't think that's how the world works and I find this very impolite and rude. Anyway I'm going to take care of my open sores.



 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Gan
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2024, 06:21:27 pm »
GaN(FET) is a MOSFET. It works exactly like any other (Si, SiC) MOSFET. Power supplies with it uses the same topologies with any other MOSFET. Any difference is minor (in general sense of things) adjustment for difference in gate voltages, and operating frequencies to exploit its strength.

Actually they aren't -- they are HEMTs.  The difference in the nature of the channel is significant ("high electron mobility"), but not actually so important for electrical behavior -- behavior per area yes, but at the board level we can't know/care about chip density too much.  But the gate has direct in-circuit consequences.  In particular, the gate is constructed of semiconductor layers, doped in such a way as to impress a built-in electric field making it enhancement mode (when applicable), and, one in-circuit consequence is significant leakage current: up to some mA at rated voltage.

This is also why you don't want to overdrive the gate: either it breaks down catastrophically (I haven't tested..!), or it zeners (in which case you literally cannot overdrive it, the voltage becomes fixed and overcurrent ensues).  AFAIK, gate current has deleterious effects, hence the rather low and precise operating limit.

GaN is a wide bandgap material, basically meaning, if you forward-bias the not-gate junction, it conducts, with about as much Vf as band gap; combined with structural reasons, it's actually more like double for the gate, hence the 6V limit for a ~3eV material.

I *think*. That last part is very hand-waved, but there are also a few ways I think to construct them, and it might also be tunneling current instead.  Also depending on if it's low voltage (e.g. EPC's eGaN line) or high, and, I haven't studied the fab-level details much (also somewhat hard to find, short of journal articles), or what particular lines are using what particular technology.

Hah actually, this one even gives gate curve... sort of. Fractional mA scale. No absolute maximum Ig though. https://assets.nexperia.com/documents/data-sheet/GAN190-650FBE.pdf

Anyway, gate current mainly means you can't just cap-couple it and expect it to work; a regular CMOS style driver is sufficient, but you'll have a rough time employing certain tricks.

The construction also means there's no body diode (or not that you'd want a GaN PN diode anyway, though the blue/UV emission would be a cool party trick), which means synchronous rectification is almost mandatory.

Having literally no body diode, means it reverts to an asymmetrical JFET behavior: the negative Vds region acts like a source follower, i.e. the V-I curve is simply the gate transfer function, hence the soft curve and no stored charge.

Other differences include avalanche behavior (rather, the complete lack thereof), the generally minuscule die (pitiful SOA / overload capacity / robustness; compare a rocket engine to a diesel engine, it's crazy powerful but one misstep and it explodes catastrophically), and the high speed making even very good layouts an electromagnetic embarrassment, heh.


Quote
For what it worth, personally I don't think GaNFETs give that much performance benefit over traditional silicon FETs. It has potential for higher efficiency at smaller size, but you aren't gaining much if you aren't size constrained.

Si is impressively good for what it is.  The main things these days are, in high voltage ratings, SJ is king, but SJ contributes a hysteresis loss mechanism that can't be avoided even by use of resonant architectures -- or, it can by slowing down switching edges extraordinarily, but that's not at all practical, and by then, your Fsw is so low (10s kHz?) that it doesn't matter anyway.

It's funny, because resonant Si is so efficient that, comparing to yesteryear's planar MOSFETs -- if you even chose devices big enough to achieve the same conduction loss (and you probably didn't, big dies = $$$), you'd pay just as much in sheer gate drive power, as SJ loses in hysteresis.  SJ is an impressive advancement, all in all -- just that it isn't without drawbacks.

(Si below 200V or so, is not SJ; it's probably coming, but for now, they can't make fine enough structures to take advantage of it.  So for now, lower voltages are ~free of hysteresis loss.  Low voltages also cost less Eoss (drain capacitance/charge energy storage / loss), making hard switching just as acceptable; it's not even that hard to make a, say, RC motor drive with >98% efficiency.)

(Also for the same reason, SiC does not use SJ: basically a 700V SiC MOSFET is the same geometry as a planar 100V Si MOSFET, just fabbed in a different material, and whatever other process adjustments of course.  So they also have low hysteresis loss.  It's probably coming, but also probably not important until ratings of several kV -- devices that are, at least very dangerous to use for one thing, but also tend to be tightly controlled.  There are SiC MOSFETs and IGBTs up to 12kV I think, but good luck finding them actually for sale -- implied: without extensive licensing, NDAs, ITAR, etc..  There aren't many customers for products that high, anyway, so marketing them isn't really needed, not in the usual way anyway.)

GaN is good at two things: high density (the transistors are very small), and high efficiency.  Granted, efficiency is in part mandatory, given the limited power dissipation (of the small devices themselves, or of the overall PSU), and also kind of an imperative that, if we're going to spend more on these, it better be worth it.  It has fast switching (the speed figure-of-merit is wild, say 2-10 times faster than Si of equivalent ratings), which compounds on density: realize the transistors themselves are but a tiny part of the overall build, and magnetics and capacitors dominate the envelope of a power supply.  (And isolation gaps, heh, but that's solvable with another expense: potting.)  By kicking Fsw up very high (maybe low MHz even), transformers can be shrunk quite a bit -- mind, not at all proportionally so, it's more like a 2nd to 4th root of the frequency ratio, available materials aren't simply proportionally better, wire losses are harder to control, kind of everything is a little worse -- but, also if we raise frequency like a whopping 10x, we still get a big savings on size.  And instead of electrolytics, we use polymers or ceramics, particularly on the output side where much less filtering is required.  We can't avoid a bulk cap on the primary side, at least not easily*, so that's going to be electrolytic for a long time, but everything else can be shrunken down.  And electrolytics themselves are still improving by tiny increment, year on year.

*I've seen the strategy, to use a poled electret ceramic capacitor (these are a standard/available part, if still rather boutique) with a switching converter, to effectively multiply the capacitance at the input port.  Basically, a swing of say 20V (out of 400V average or whatever) is magnified to 100 or 200V of swing at the ceramic capacitor, right in the middle of its C(V) curve (whereas an unpoled ceramic has maximum C around 0V, a poled one has it off-center, thus giving useful bypass value, and radically higher energy storage, under bias), thus making a few uF look like 10s or even 100s of uF from the outside.  Huge bother (complexity, cost) for not much improvement otherwise, but if you absolutely must pack something into a small envelope, or save weight -- that's one way to do it.

Especially with responsive designs like low-Q resonant and QR/BCM flyback, the amount of circuitry needed on the secondary side can be impressively low; it really shows off one possible end-goal of power supply design: to have one central energy-storage reservoir, and to transform that into usable power at the far end, as quickly and efficiently as possible.  That is, if all the output energy per cycle is delivered within that cycle more or less, we only need as much output energy storage as required to smooth over between cycles -- and maybe a little extra for EMI filtering.  Output stage can simply be transformer, rectifier (SR preferably for efficiency), filter, and output terminals.

Likewise for the ever-increasing speed of PoL (point of load) (DC-DC) converters: filtering requirements are less and less, and thus the cutoff frequency of the converter rises; that is, any change in load consumption, is very quickly communicated to the input side as change in current draw.

The most general takeaway is: a switching converter is a low-pass filter, an energy storage element.  The less energy stored, the faster and more responsive it must be.

If you compare the voltage-mode CCM forward converters of past generations (ye olde AT(X) PSU) to now, quite a lot of space is taken up on the secondary side -- huge filter chokes, electrolytic capacitors, and probably an LC clean-up stage after that besides.  Maybe 40% of total board area, when it might be more like 20% now (at least in the power section; control circuits can still take up some board area).  The cutoff frequency of a voltage-mode controller is typically some kHz (for Fsw in the maybe 40kHz range; these were mostly BJT based half-bridge inverters), so the secondary-side energy capacity is huge.  Nowadays with a resonant design, cutoff can be over 100kHz and mostly ceramic caps suffices for output filtering; in at least a few cases I've seen, the requirement for secondary-side electrolytics actually comes from the feedback opto's limited response speed (~10kHz cutoff?); seems insane for such an advanced design to be limited by such a silly part, but it's surprisingly hard (or slow?) to innovate in regard to opto performance.

Or kind of the converse, you could run a PFC stage on the primary and nothing else, and get essentially rectified (moderately regulated) DC at the output.  That is, the power flowing through the isolation transformer is a function of instantaneous input voltage, varying during the cycle.  The downside is the bulk cap's low voltage rating: higher voltage electrolytics have better energy density, so it's better to put it on the primary side instead.

Tim
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Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Gan
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2024, 06:34:56 pm »
The OP has this idea to build an open source tool called "The Station".

The OP has almost zero knowledge about how to develop "The Station" and as such he is now searching for horses to put in front of his cart. As a reward for your sweat and hard work your name will be mentioned on the webpage of the open source product.

Maybe I'm wrong (my beard starts to be grey) but I don't think that's how the world works and I find this very impolite and rude. Anyway I'm going to take care of my open sores.
I don't think OP is trying to be impolite or take advantage of people, I think they're just wildly underestimating the complexity of their endeavor, since I don't think they're very experienced. They don't yet know enough to realize all the things they don't know, but need to for this project. I get it, I've been there before (but luckily had people to help me reign that in and guide it towards something doable).
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Gan
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2024, 06:36:30 pm »
Given the earlier comment, I choose to read this thread as an "asking for help / learning" one, with the over-ambitious project as a potential framing device, but not actually likely (or important) to succeed as a complete project.

Tim
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Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Online Andy Chee

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Re: Gan
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2024, 06:38:25 pm »
The construction also means there's no body diode (or not that you'd want a GaN PN diode anyway, though the blue/UV emission would be a cool party trick), which means synchronous rectification is almost mandatory.
Now that you mention that, blue/UV GaN emissions evokes memories of the old glass mercury arc rectifiers, which seems somewhat poetic for power electronics.
 
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Online temperance

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Re: Gan
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2024, 06:53:14 pm »
@ T3sl4co1l

Everything you wrote is beyond the comprehension level of the OP. If you would read what he posted, you would know that the OP can't read what you posted. I also don't think this is an "asking for help" post.

Here is an excerpt from the first attempt at finding horses.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/the-station/msg5623197/#msg5623197

Quote
This project is open source, and is not for profit, the goal is to offer the best products for the best price and having it durable, and reparable.
Every one participating in the project will be thanks In the website for the project's (you will be able to include your website)
In the first time the product will be available on AliExpress with free shipping (I will use already implanted Shop I will just take a small cut to pay me for the price of the prototyping (the shop will receive a badge certifying they are contributing to the project but especially that the kit is conform to the original design and functions). For the price and the ease of shipping. (Better price for the customer)
I a second time I hope to get it available in European Shop will be obviously more expensive but you will get 2 years of warranty and a more rapid shipping.


I don't know what others make of this.

 

Offline inse

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Re: Gan
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2024, 07:00:23 pm »
N/R
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 07:25:38 am by inse »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Gan
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2024, 08:48:19 pm »
@ T3sl4co1l

Everything you wrote is beyond the comprehension level of the OP. If you would read what he posted, you would know that the OP can't read what you posted. I also don't think this is an "asking for help" post.

You're right -- even when I'm not replying to the OP, I should just not even try, but instead delete whatever posts other readers might find helpful.  This should greatly improve the readability of the forum -- thanks! ;)

...

"Finding horses", an unfamiliar idiom (translated maybe--?), but gets the jist. :)

Tim
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Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Offline ricko_uk

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Re: Gan
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2024, 08:57:05 pm »

This might be what you initially asked for and has links and infos to solutions:

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/new-gan-power-supply-ic-delivers-up-to-85-watts-without-heatsink/


« Last Edit: September 03, 2024, 08:58:59 pm by ricko_uk »
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gan
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2024, 08:59:24 pm »
What other do you consider as being the advantage of Gan ?
GaN is advantageous in hard-switched applications, the most dominant one being bridge-less power factor correction, 99% efficiency.

GaN disadvantage is that hard-switching generates more harmonics/EMI, and therefore requires more/larger filtering and careful board design layout.
The first of those things does help with the second. Less heat means you can get the filters in really tight around the power parts, where they are most effective.
 

Online Andy Chee

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Re: Gan
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2024, 09:00:29 pm »
I don't know what others make of this.
It feels like the OP is imitating Thomas Edison/Steve Jobs in that they're trying to get others to do the research & design, then they can do the marketing & branding.
 


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