Deleting posts

[EEVblog]

would make people who have constantly updated projects or guides a major pain.

And I think if the poll asked if people should be able to edit their own posts, I think the vast majority would say yes.
Essentially there are two separate issues here, but they are related, because if you allow editing of a post, why not deleting?
I'm having a hard time coming up with a really compelling reason...

[xrunner]

And on top of that, as an admin you shouldn't really care.

Man, we got a MAJOR disconnect going on Dave. A really BIG disconnect on this one. 180 deg disconnect.

[AlfBaz]

As far as the functionality of the forum goes this seems to be yet another red herring.
You have years of empirical data on the forum's operation based on the, up 'til now, deletion paradigm and it doesn't take a genius to extrapolate what the forum will be like after the change.
Going the other way would be far more difficult because assumptions of chaos and "end of the world" scenarios would ensue.

Knowing what it's like now and imagining what it would be like after this change, what scenarios would rise that may be detrimental or advantageous. Would there be a noticeable difference to the average punter or is it yet another part of our lives that have had yet another freedom removed/restriction enforced.

If some piss-ant thread in the massive scheme of the world-wide-web becomes a little less intelligible because someone feels better by deleting their post then so be it.

If keeping "accurate historical"  records is so important then how hard would it be that the delete button doesn't delete the thread but changes the users name to anon or guest

[xrunner]

Why are you so hung up on the idea of a forum being a historical record?
I suspect the vast majority of users regard it as an information resource.

Why are you so hung up on it not being a historical record? What you want is not a forum, what you want is an error free sanitized list of information. That sure in Hell ain't what a forum is all about. There's nothing wrong with what you want, but a forum ain't the tool for it.

[mrflibble]

How about 7 minutes? That's long enough that the reasonable part of your brain has had adequate time to think "mmmh, maybe this was not such a good idea *delete*" and short enough that there statistically speaking are not loads and loads of replies to it. And no loads and loads of replies means that in the event of deletion there are not loads and loads of replies that suddenly are out of context.

I think it needs to be 12-24 hours. So if you post something dumb before you head to sleep, you can remove it when you wake up.

Mmmh, usually when it's something really dumb, you will get (or rather, I usually get) an internal reminder within that ~7 minute timespan. It basically (IMO) is about balancing what the poster of the to be deleted thread wants vs the rest of the thread participants.

You did plonk it out there in a public forum. If you notice it within a few minutes, okay just delete it, none the wiser. If after 12-24 hours people have already seen it and replied to it IMO it is nicer to not delete it. In that case the poster can still edit it and leave a one liner of "disregard old post, needed sleep" or some such.

For the other scenario of "but it's my post and I want to be able to remove the content a week after I posted it" I really suggest people can just use the edit button. That way the user's mission of "must delete content" is still completed, AND for the rest of the thread participants there is still enough coherence left because they can see the edited post. Seems a reasonably balanced solution to me, but that's just my opinion. 

What if a user requests to close there account and have all their posts removed?
This has happened before, and I think it's their right to ask for that, so I always comply. Unlike some forums, I do have a clause that says the information you enter belongs me *insert evil laugh*
In which case, does it make sense not to allow post deletion at any time?

In which case personally I would comply as well and do a delete all. Annoying, but such is life. And yes, it still does make sense to not allow post deletion at any time, even if you have as policy that you will comply to requests to nuke an entire account.

Even there you could make a script that 1) changes username to "anonymous deleted user" and 2) replace thread text with "removed upon user request". That way you still have a semblance of coherence in the thread and .... google can actually find something with the correct post number after a big nuke fest.

To clarify: with thread coherence I mean that after an alteration (delete or edit) other people don't get confused by things that are suddenly waaay out of context. I noticed on this and other forums that multiple deletes is a great way to add extra confusion. On the other hand the same number of edits (basically delete content, leave empty post) is significantly less confusing.

[mikeselectricstuff]

You aren't. So what? Why is it a probolem?

It's obvious even to the most casual user isn't it?

Disabling a facility that most of the time is useful just in case someone "abuses" it seems rather stupid.

No, it isn't "stupid Mike. People can post corrected info in any thread they want to without editing the past. I've already explained why it's a bad idea, there's no need to type the same thing over and over is there?

Few people looking for a piece of up-to-date info are going to read through a 2000+ post thread to find it.
The ability of the OP to keep up-to-date links at the start helps them find it.
I would suggest you are in a small minority in your opinion that an accurate historical record is more important than being able to easily find up-to-date information, and your claim that there is a single "right" way is just narrowminded, and not helpful.

[Fraser]

Another storm in a tea cup ?

Wow, there are some strong opinions on the matter here. As Dave LJ has highlighted, this forum runs pretty well withOUT any draconian measures in place. (I just edited this line ! <- )

I am in a position to comment on mass deletion as I had to carry out such in the E4 teardown thread recently. Maybe my reasons will explain why such is sometimes necessary but thankfully such is rare.

I posted in a thread that dealt with the teardown of a FLIR E4 thermal camera. The thread began as a simple reverse engineering exercise with which my employer would have no issues. I posted many technical comments on Thermal camera design. The thread then went off-piste and detailed how to hack the E4 with full details of the process. This was followed by requests for hacking information for greater frame rates. The thread had BECOME a 'how to hack a thermal camera' resource. My employer does not wish its employees to be involved in active discussion threads detailing the hacking of such devices. My comments were not the issue, my comments in a hacking thread were !

My response to the situation was to quickly delete all my posts in the E4 thread back to a date previous to the hacking event. I effectively removed myself from the hacking time line as I was not actually participating in such. In retrospect I could have changed the posts contents but that provides an index point to track the post in something like the way back machine ? I am no expert on forums and nowhere had I read that I could not delete my posts. Dave is all for freedom of speech and action, and that is what I exercised on that day. Not my finest hour but hey, we are all human and my actions caused no damage to the core topic. I would not wish this forum to become heavy on the rules and light on the fun. I doubt I will ever need to mass delete posts again as it was a very specific issue but I have to wonder how widespread this issue actually is and whether this is some sort of knee jerk reaction to a minor hiccup. Lets not get too anal over this. Some people love lots of rules, others do not. Apply the KISS principle I say 

[EEVblog]

Well stop belittling people like me who DO think they know a damn thing or two about forums. If I think I'm right then just accept it.

Hey, I'll fight for your right to think you are right on anything you want.
But that doesn't mean I have to accept it as being right. This is a discussion forum, so you get a discussion 

You don't have to change your mind, but don't belittle others that are of a different mindset. Your just as goddamn hardheaded as I am, and don't try to say otherwise 'cause I've seen it in the past. 

I'm not belittling you or your mindset, I'm simply explaining why I think there is no black and white answer here. Don't take it so personally.

[Fsck]

would make people who have constantly updated projects or guides a major pain.

And I think if the poll asked if people should be able to edit their own posts, I think the vast majority would say yes.
Essentially there are two separate issues here, but they are related, because if you allow editing of a post, why not deleting?
I'm having a hard time coming up with a really compelling reason...

personally, I prefer no restrictions on editing or deleting.
but if the issue of entire threads going poof due to the OP deletion concerns the majority, then I could personally live with that restriction.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Why are you so hung up on the idea of a forum being a historical record?
I suspect the vast majority of users regard it as an information resource.

Why are you so hung up on it not being a historical record?

I'm not - I just don't beleive many users here regard it as being as important as you seem to believe.

[xrunner]

The ability of the OP to keep up-to-date links at the start helps them find it.

Sure, if that's is what they are editing the post for. And what if they are making more mistakes than they are correcting? Plus you of course realize that all the quotes from any original posts that are unedited do not change? It just makes a mess of things Mike. Yea - I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Right, I know, I just make this up out of thin air.

[xrunner]

Don't take it so personally.

Back to ya on that advice. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

would make people who have constantly updated projects or guides a major pain.

And I think if the poll asked if people should be able to edit their own posts, I think the vast majority would say yes.
Essentially there are two separate issues here, but they are related, because if you allow editing of a post, why not deleting?
I'm having a hard time coming up with a really compelling reason...

ISTR this whole thing kicked off due to a post deletion resulting in a whole thread vanishing. If instead that had been "<post removed by user>" instead of complete disappearance, it may have been clearer. And would also help dispel any tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists mistaking deletion for censorship or removal by admin/moderation.

[xrunner]

I'm not - I just don't beleive (sic)many users here regard it as being as important as you seem to believe.

Well, we really don't know the answer to that question at this time. And I'll say it right out - sometimes the members don't know what they really want as far as forum functionality goes. They think they do, but there are many ramifications that they don't know how to foresee. Just like some arguments for allowing deletions and edits forever. The members who want this are wrong but don't know it. 

[EEVblog]

Why are you so hung up on it not being a historical record? What you want is not a forum, what you want is an error free sanitized list of information. That sure in Hell ain't what a forum is all about.

Perhaps not, but in the real world that is a part of what it becomes whether you like it or not. That I think is demonstrably true. And I'd hazard a guess that more people care about using it that way than it being some "historical record" of people bitching about this and that, complete with all their mistakes.
Do you really think most people who will visit say the Flir E4 thread care about who said what at what time to whom? No, they care about find the info about hacking their camera.

Surely you can at least concede there is some merit to allowing people to edit say their first post for that very reason?
If not, how do you propose that be handled? Is the useful info doomed to forever be spread over countless posts? Creating a new super post every time a new bit of info is added?
Or should any useful info once found on a forum be copied over to some information wiki instead?

[EEVblog]

ISTR this whole thing kicked off due to a post deletion resulting in a whole thread vanishing.

Actually, that was a mistake on my part. The user in question belonged to a user group (there are different right for each group based on your level) that accidentally had the option set to enabled topic deletion. Usually if the first post in a thread is deleted, the thread doesn't get deleted. If someone wants to verify this again, please do so (I can't being an admin with super powers).

[mikeselectricstuff]

The ability of the OP to keep up-to-date links at the start helps them find it.

Sure, if that's is what they are editing the post for.

Which in almost all  cases it will be

And what if they are making more mistakes than they are correcting?

Others will spot it and point it out

Plus you of course realize that all the quotes from any original posts that are unedited do not change?

So what? 

It just makes a mess of things Mike. Yea - I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Right, I know, I just make this up out of thin air.

Very occasionally, maybe, but certainly not enough to aywhere near justify a change that would reduce the net usefulness of a forum that has been working just fine for years.
I'm sure there are forums where there have been genuine problems caused by editing. I don't think this is one of them.
However the ability to edit has demonstrably been of benefit to a significant number of users, and you've yet  to provide any convincing argument to change it.

[EEVblog]

Plus you of course realize that all the quotes from any original posts that are unedited do not change? It just makes a mess of things

Once again, so what? Is it such a big deal?
Isn't it better for posters to at least fix their mistakes in their original post?
I can't see how having the original mistake, plus all the copied mistakes, is better than just having the copied mistakes?
There is nothing that can be done about quoted copies, so that's not worth worrying about.
The question is, does editing your own post add value, and I think the answer is a clear yes.
Yes, there are some downside if you want to look at it like you do, but I think the pros outweighs the cons.

[Fraser]

Historical record ? That is something that I never considered this forum to be

To me as a member, it is a fun place to share knowledge. I don't get paid for the help I give and expect no payment or to be tied into any form of 'legal' agreement regarding who actually owns my Posts. Hell I have enough red tape and anal attitudes in my work place without it pervading eth EEVBlog forum.

If people are told that they lose all rights to their posts as it is a Historical (legal?) record of their views and comments, it kind of places a wet blanket on discussions. This is a place for free expression without fear (within legal bounds of course!)


Historical record of importance to mankind.....Nah ! that's getting too serious and grandiose for me 

Everyone has a right to have and share their views, both right and wrong. Lets keep this forum and fun and friendly place to be and not some starchy rule rich nightmare that is so common elsewhere on the NET. This is Aussie DAVE's place after all ..... cool and laid back 

[xrunner]

Perhaps not, but in the real world that is a part of what it becomes whether you like it or not. That I think is demonstrably true. And I'd hazard a guess that more people care about using it that way than it being some "historical record" of people bitching about this and that, complete with all their mistakes.
Do you really think most people who will visit say the Flir E4 thread care about who said what at what time to whom? No, they care about find the info about hacking their camera.

You might be surprised at the underlying relationships between members. I'd bet you that there's many little cliques and groups you have no idea about, but that's what happens on a forum community. I'd bet there;s a lot of people that search for certain member's posts and so on.

Surely you can at least concede there is some merit to allowing people to edit say their first post for that very reason?

The first post. If it's that important, there's ways to handle it I suppose, without ruining the record.

If not, how do you propose that be handled? Is the useful info doomed to forever be spread over countless posts? Creating a new super post every time a new bit of info is added?
Or should any useful info once found on a forum be copied over to some information wiki instead?

Let me think about it, because I do want to help things, even though you have a different view about it. OK?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Surely you can at least concede there is some merit to allowing people to edit say their first post for that very reason?

I don't think there would be any benefit to limiting edits to the first post.
For example, one of the links my first post on the E4 thread links to Taucher's menu hack post, which he maintains.

[xrunner]

However the ability to edit has demonstrably been of benefit to a significant number of users, and you've yet  to provide any convincing argument to change it.

Sure I have - I just haven't convinced you. I never achieve 100%. 

[AlfBaz]

Historical record ? That is something that I never considered this forum to be

To me as a member, it is a fun place to share knowledge. I don't get paid for the help I give and expect no payment or to be tied into any form of 'legal' agreement regarding who actually owns my Posts. Hell I have enough red tape and anal attitudes in my work place without it pervading eth EEVBlog forum.

If people are told that they lose all rights to their posts as it is a Historical (legal?) record of their views and comments, it kind of places a wet blanket on discussions. This is a place for free expression without fear (within legal bounds of course!)


Historical record of importance to mankind.....Nah ! that's getting too serious and grandiose for me 

Everyone has a right to have and share their views, both right and wrong. Lets keep this forum and fun and friendly place to be and not some starchy rule rich nightmare that is so common elsewhere on the NET. This is Aussie DAVE's place after all ..... cool and laid back 

Exactly 

[mrflibble]

ISTR this whole thing kicked off due to a post deletion resulting in a whole thread vanishing. If instead that had been "<post removed by user>" instead of complete disappearance, it may have been clearer.

That is indeed what I would hope for. Leaving the post with a simple "removed by user" or "removed upon user request" still gets the job done for both sides. Post owner gets post content removed. And for all the other users in the thread things tend to be less out of context, since now people actually see that something has been removed.

[EEVblog]

A poll on editing pots is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/should-users-be-able-to-edit-their-own-posts/