Neoden 4 pick and place

[vonnieda]

Hi Tim,

I am absolutely still interested. I can't really make any guarantees since I still don't know very much about the hardware, but I'd definitely like to get my hands on it and see if we can make it work. I'll PM you and we can get into details.

Thanks,
Jason

[DocG]

I am also very interested in using the electronic feeders, has anyone got any data from the CanBus line yet for the feeders?
In order to figure out canbus commands, somone will need to monitor the canbus line, then using one feeder set it's feeder ID.
Then set it's feeder strength. Then do a pickup test. Then send me the log and I will figure out the rest 

[timbo73]

When we collect that data we will indeed post it on this forum.

[timbo73]

Questions for those that have already bought a Neoden 4 (before we pull the trigger ourselves):

Did you buy the floor-standing base or do you use it on a benchtop? If the former, is it stable without anchoring to the floor or wall?

Did you get the auto-rails (and are you happy with them)?

What accessories did you buy? Replacement nozzles? Anything else?

Also wondering if anyone has experience with their solder stenciling equipment: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182080963050

Thanks for the feedback!

[uncle_bob]

Also wondering if anyone has experience with their solder stenciling equipment: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182080963050

Thanks for the feedback!

Hi

... or if not that specific printer, what *are* people getting to go with this machine? There are a couple of
similar printers out there and then the price just keeps going on up

Bob

[mrpackethead]

Also wondering if anyone has experience with their solder stenciling equipment: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182080963050

Thanks for the feedback!

Hi

... or if not that specific printer, what *are* people getting to go with this machine? There are a couple of
similar printers out there and then the price just keeps going on up

Bob

I physically had a good look at this printer while i was in china, and did a couple of stencil pass's with it.    It well made, and with care and good operation attention you'll produce good repeatable stencilling with it.

Kind Regards.

Andrew.

[elmood]

Hey folks,

I haven't been here in a while. But we've been successfully using our Neoden 4 and have built 150 boards (3 different designs) so far and real products are going in boxes ready for customers.

But I have a question for other Neoden 4 users. Each job seems to be a bit of a pain when we are getting it set up the first time. Specifically this 4th job is the biggest yet... 247 parts and a 6"x10" board. I'm having trouble with the fiducials... they are in the corners of the board basically, and they seem to detect fine. But when I use Vision Align not all parts are centred on the camera. The ones near the top of the PCB (the end that feeds into the machine) are spot on, but the ones near the bottom image off to the right a considerable amount.

Originally this problem seemed to be due to the type / number of fiducials and where they are placed. But I'm using proper fids this time arranged near the corners of the board and STILL it's not reliable. I updated to the latest software (4.0.3.2) and it didn't improve things at all. So far this is the single most frustrating part of setting up a new job.

Does anyone have any tricks to getting this right?

[elmood]

Also wondering if anyone has experience with their solder stenciling equipment: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182080963050

Thanks for the feedback!

Hi

... or if not that specific printer, what *are* people getting to go with this machine? There are a couple of
similar printers out there and then the price just keeps going on up

Bob

BTW I bought the PM3040 stencil printer so common on Aliexpress. Neoden shipped it with the machine. The smallest stencil my local house can make is 23" which requires more counterweight on the back end. I have a piece of 3/8" threaded rod that I stick on the back of the machine to put the weight further out and it works fine. I just put the two rods inside a length of CPVC tubing to hold them together. It's easily removable with no tools. The stencil printer is on a wheeled cart since it needs a lot of space when in use, but tucks away behind the machine when idle.

[uncle_bob]

Also wondering if anyone has experience with their solder stenciling equipment: http://www.ebay.com/itm/182080963050

Thanks for the feedback!

Hi

... or if not that specific printer, what *are* people getting to go with this machine? There are a couple of
similar printers out there and then the price just keeps going on up

Bob

BTW I bought the PM3040 stencil printer so common on Aliexpress. Neoden shipped it with the machine. The smallest stencil my local house can make is 23" which requires more counterweight on the back end. I have a piece of 3/8" threaded rod that I stick on the back of the machine to put the weight further out and it works fine. I just put the two rods inside a length of CPVC tubing to hold them together. It's easily removable with no tools. The stencil printer is on a wheeled cart since it needs a lot of space when in use, but tucks away behind the machine when idle.

Hi

I just went for one of the Neoden printers via their eBay store. They accepted an offer price that was very close to the numbers I had been getting on Alibaba for the other similar units. Judging by the delivery date,  it's shipping air freight.

Bob

[timbo73]

Thanks Bob, do let us know if it works out.

[TankSparks]

But I have a question for other Neoden 4 users. Each job seems to be a bit of a pain when we are getting it set up the first time. Specifically this 4th job is the biggest yet... 247 parts and a 6"x10" board. I'm having trouble with the fiducials... they are in the corners of the board basically, and they seem to detect fine. But when I use Vision Align not all parts are centred on the camera. The ones near the top of the PCB (the end that feeds into the machine) are spot on, but the ones near the bottom image off to the right a considerable amount.

No problems here if I use only 2 fiducials bottom left and top right. 

[uncle_bob]

Thanks Bob, do let us know if it works out.

Hi

Well, I just got a very nice "DHL is shipping your printer" note from Neoden. So far they are doing everything right. I should have the printer before the end of the week.

Bob

[timbo73]

Alas, no Neoden 4 for us, as we need to place 0.35mm pitch connectors.

Kudos to Neoden 4 for the quick and honest reply:

Hello Mr. Tim Blanche,

Thanks for your email and inquiry about our vision PnP Machine Neoden4, after checked your attached file, we are a little pity to inform your esteemed company that maybe Neoden4 can't support this kind of components, regarding Neoden4 it can support :
Max placement height : 5mm
Available for fine-pitch of IC : More than 0.5mm

Attached file is our detail introduction of Neoden4 for your reference, and if any questions just feel free to tell us, we will do our best to help you.

Thanks a lot!

---
Kind regards!
Suntee from Neoden
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[mrpackethead]

Having said that,  I did personaly watch the machine place 0201's which also is not it its spec sheet.    You might be best to find a N4, and see what it does..

Alas, no Neoden 4 for us, as we need to place 0.35mm pitch connectors.

Kudos to Neoden 4 for the quick and honest reply:

Hello Mr. Tim Blanche,

Thanks for your email and inquiry about our vision PnP Machine Neoden4, after checked your attached file, we are a little pity to inform your esteemed company that maybe Neoden4 can't support this kind of components, regarding Neoden4 it can support :
Max placement height : 5mm
Available for fine-pitch of IC : More than 0.5mm

Attached file is our detail introduction of Neoden4 for your reference, and if any questions just feel free to tell us, we will do our best to help you.

Thanks a lot!

---
Kind regards!
Suntee from Neoden
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[mikeselectricstuff]

An issue with fine pitch is rotation accuracy - most of these machines use steppers for rotation, so probably 200 or 400 steps, which isn't enough to accurately rotate larger or fine-pitch QFPs with enough accuracy.

[Kjelt]

An issue with fine pitch is rotation accuracy - most of these machines use steppers for rotation, so probably 200 or 400 steps, which isn't enough to accurately rotate larger or fine-pitch QFPs with enough accuracy.

So what do the machines that can handle these parts use for rotation?
And won't the reflow process place the part correctly just as resistors that are not place 100% accurate will be placed ok due to this proces?

[mrpackethead]

An issue with fine pitch is rotation accuracy - most of these machines use steppers for rotation, so probably 200 or 400 steps, which isn't enough to accurately rotate larger or fine-pitch QFPs with enough accuracy.

Almost certainly these machiens are using Microstepping, and at least 1:4 if not 1:8,     1:8 is about the minium to acehive the accruacy that you'll need for a large QFP ( say 14x14 or greater ).. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

An issue with fine pitch is rotation accuracy - most of these machines use steppers for rotation, so probably 200 or 400 steps, which isn't enough to accurately rotate larger or fine-pitch QFPs with enough accuracy.

So what do the machines that can handle these parts use for rotation?
And won't the reflow process place the part correctly just as resistors that are not place 100% accurate will be placed ok due to this proces?

Qfps won't self-centre as the solder area is small compared to the package area.
Say you have a big QFP 20mm wide, with 0.5mm pitch, the 0.5mm pitch represents about 2.8 degrees of rotation, and you want to be accurate to within maybe 20% of a pin width max, so that's 0.5 degrees (720 steps) absolute minimum resolution for that size, assuming no other error sources, so you should probably be aiming for more like 0.1degrees.

[mrpackethead]

An issue with fine pitch is rotation accuracy - most of these machines use steppers for rotation, so probably 200 or 400 steps, which isn't enough to accurately rotate larger or fine-pitch QFPs with enough accuracy.

So what do the machines that can handle these parts use for rotation?
And won't the reflow process place the part correctly just as resistors that are not place 100% accurate will be placed ok due to this proces?

Qfps won't self-centre as the solder area is small compared to the package area.
Say you have a big QFP 20mm wide, with 0.5mm pitch, the 0.5mm pitch represents about 2.8 degrees of rotation, and you want to be accurate to within maybe 20% of a pin width max, so that's 0.5 degrees (720 steps) absolute minimum resolution for that size, assuming no other error sources, so you should probably be aiming for more like 0.1degrees.

So you use microstepping on good steppers, or you use a Servo motor...

[mikeselectricstuff]

Or a stepper with gearing/reduction

[timbo73]

QFPs won't self-centre as the solder area is small compared to the package area.
Say you have a big QFP 20mm wide, with 0.5mm pitch, the 0.5mm pitch represents about 2.8 degrees of rotation, and you want to be accurate to within maybe 20% of a pin width max, so that's 0.5 degrees (720 steps) absolute minimum resolution for that size, assuming no other error sources, so you should probably be aiming for more like 0.1degrees.

Yes, that's our experience too with these hand-placed board-board connectors - they don't self-center, let along self rotate during reflow, you have to get it right during placement.

Since these connectors are small, 5.6mm from first to last pin on the long axis, or 2.8mm radius to the farthest pin assuming they are picked up in the center, then a coarser theta resolution might suffice, even for 0.35mm pitch. I've optimistically asked Neoden for their step size...

In the meantime, I'm happy to send a cut tape of these connectors to anybody with a working Neoden who's willing to do some quick  tests on double sided tape 

[glenenglish]

There are mitigation strategies that the software could use to get the rotational accuracy they need for even big 0.35mm pitch if the mfrs wanted to , using standard steppers and microstepping-IE existing hardware.

...I've found some 5 phase NEMA9 (24mm)  hollow shaft motors, if I can get my hands on one, I'll blog up the result.  0.72deg full steps... Less issue with unloaded vibration modes etc, more accurate microsteps bla bla bla. pricey though....

[timbo73]

Thanks, I wonder if they're suitable size / drive signals to retrofit to the Neoden?

[drwalker]

Does anyone know if the NeoDen4 feeders can accept cut tape? Are there any requirements for leader and trailer length? We'd be using the machine for small runs, and for pricier components full reels are unrealistic. I've looked into services like DigiReels but it limits our choice of suppliers. Thanks.

[TankSparks]

Does anyone know if the NeoDen 4 feeders can accept cut tape?

I've done some experiments... You can feed  cut tape into the feeder but you will need to extend the peel tape about 8 inches to feed into the tape peeler.   I did get it to work but did not use it in production.  Plus it may have problems where the two are joined together as it goes through the tape peeler gears, so may require some help there. 

Another option is use your tape as a tray.  I've made a tape holder for 24mm tape,  or just use double sided tape to hold the tape down,  I've used that method. 
Digi reel or mouse reel is really the way to go.