DEX eval by free_electron

[Iliya]

A few more points..

DEX sets up vias automatically? Does it have a sane method to tell it 'no, you can't do a buried or blind via' on a board wide scale?

And how exactly do we do buried vias on 3 layers?

Here is the option.

You can't have a buried via on a 3 layer board but you can have blind vias. I thought you would realize that.

May I make a suggestion: Perhaps if you tried AutoTRAX you may then be able to make more valid contributions.

Download from http://kov.com

[Iliya]

It's not the blind and buried ones I'm talking about, it's the 'oh, I'm just going to randomly turn a buried via into a blind via through x number of layers for the hell of it' option which makes little sense.

Especially when you could just have proper stack and via control.

It's not random, it's a deliberate choice by the designer to do so and it's not 'for the hell of it', again it is a deliberate choice. You don't have to do it! So, if you don't check the option then it works perfectly as you wanted; what can be wrong with that?

And again I ask, why would you want this checkbox when you can simply specify the via to connect to the appropriate layers?

It makes no sense. It's also likely to end up costing a small fortune to have made.

See this. It's off by default so all vias are through board.

[Monkeh]

A few more points..

DEX sets up vias automatically? Does it have a sane method to tell it 'no, you can't do a buried or blind via' on a board wide scale?

And how exactly do we do buried vias on 3 layers?

Here is the option.

Okay, not that I can see most of the box and figure out how it works. But okay.

You can't have a buried via on a 3 layer board but you can have blind vias. I thought you would realize that.

But you said buried, not blind. You see, I do realise these things, I've actually designed and made boards!

May I make a suggestion: Perhaps if you tried AutoTRAX you may then be able to make more valid contributions.

Download from http://pcb.software

Sorry, but the current version costs money and I already said I'm not paying you a penny. It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you. And yet I'm still here spending a little of my time trying to help you improve your software for others.

Also, I am not going to spend days learning a tool I'll never use because you refuse to actually discuss things.

See this. It's off by default so all vias are through board.

How does that in any way answer my question? Let me repeat it again.

Why would you want a checkbox to extend a buried via into a blind via or a through hole when you could simply specify a blind via or a through hole?

[Iliya]

Layer Optimization for Vias

AutoTRAX has optional layer usage optimization for all vias. If turned on, vias only go through layers they need to, to make the connection. This will create buried vias, blind vias or though board vias as required.

[Monkeh]

Layer Optimization for Vias

AutoTRAX has optional layer usage optimization for all vias. If turned on, vias only go through layers they need to, to make the connection. This will create buried vias, blind vias or though board vias as required.

Does it take into account manufacturability?

[Iliya]

How does that in any way answer my question? Let me repeat it again.

Why would you want a checkbox to extend a buried via into a blind via or a through hole when you could simply specify a blind via or a through hole?

It's totally up to the designer.
Here's one way, it could be used.

Extend via A. This make A,B a test fixture for free provide the area on the top side about A is vacant.
Now it would be possible to measure the resistance from A to B. Similar 'free' test fixture around the board would help QA with the board.

[Monkeh]

How does that in any way answer my question? Let me repeat it again.

Why would you want a checkbox to extend a buried via into a blind via or a through hole when you could simply specify a blind via or a through hole?

It's totally up to the designer.
Here's one way, it could be used.

Extend via A. This make A,B a test fixture for free provide the area on the top side about A is vacant.
Now it would be possible to measure the resistance from A to B. Similar 'free' test fixture around the board would help QA with the board.

Vias are not test points. This has been said before.

How is this different or better than simply specifying A as a through hole instead of a blind via?

Also, that board would be unmanufacturable with normal processes with blind vias on both sides.

[Iliya]

How does that in any way answer my question? Let me repeat it again.

Why would you want a checkbox to extend a buried via into a blind via or a through hole when you could simply specify a blind via or a through hole?

It's totally up to the designer.
Here's one way, it could be used.

Extend via A. This make A,B a test fixture for free provide the area on the top side about A is vacant.
Now it would be possible to measure the resistance from A to B. Similar 'free' test fixture around the board would help QA with the board.

Vias are not test points. This has been said before.

How is this different or better than simply specifying A as a through hole instead of a blind via?

Also, that board would be unmanufacturable with normal processes with blind vias on both sides.

Vias are test points if the designer wants them to be.

You say 'that board would be unmanufacturable' Why ?

[Monkeh]

Vias are test points if the designer wants them to be.

No, vias can be misused (and destroyed) as test points, if the designer wants them to be.

You say 'that board would be unmanufacturable' Why ?

In order to drill and plate two sets of blind vias you would need two cores. This will result in four layers, not three, and you won't get buried vias between the inner layers.

Please watch the video I linked yesterday, it will give you a basic idea of the process. I'm sure you can figure out where steps are inserted for the addition of blind or buried vias.

[Iliya]

Sorry, but the current version costs money and I already said I'm not paying you a penny. It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you. And yet I'm still here spending a little of my time trying to help you improve your software for others.

 It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you.

Umm, then all these often negative posts by you are really personal. Is that correct? What have I done to upset you so much?

[Iliya]

Vias are test points if the designer wants them to be.

No, vias can be misused (and destroyed) as test points, if the designer wants them to be.

You say 'that board would be unmanufacturable' Why ?

In order to drill and plate two sets of blind vias you would need two cores. This will result in four layers, not three, and you won't get buried vias between the inner layers.

Please watch the video I linked yesterday, it will give you a basic idea of the process. I'm sure you can figure out where steps are inserted for the addition of blind or buried vias.

The bottom core does not need to be double sided copper, just single sided.

[Monkeh]

Sorry, but the current version costs money and I already said I'm not paying you a penny. It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you. And yet I'm still here spending a little of my time trying to help you improve your software for others.

 It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you.

Umm, then all these often negative posts by you are really personal. Is that correct? What have I don't to upset you so much?

Actually no, they're not. But if you want to know why I don't like you.. read some of your own posts.

The bottom core does not need to be double sided copper, just single sided.

So how do you propose drilling and plating a blind via on that?

[Iliya]

So how do you propose drilling and plating a blind via on that?

I worked for several years as a photolith process development engineer for Ferranti, National Semiconductors and Motorola on IC production lines; so I could quickly develop a process to make your board.

Though, you need to ask why you want to make a 3 board in the first place. It was you who suggested it. I assume you would approach your manufacturer and tell them what you wanted and I suspect they would ask you why you did not want a 4 sided board.

So again, the answer to your question is like most answers that you have received from myself and others, it’s up to the designer.

I hope this helps.

[Monkeh]

So how do you propose drilling and plating a blind via on that?

I worked for several years as a photolith process development engineer for Ferranti, National Semiconductors and Motorola on IC production lines; so I could quickly develop a process to make your board.

Though, you need to ask why you want to make a 3 board in the first place. It was you who suggested it. I assume you would approach your manufacturer and tell them what you wanted and I suspect they would ask you why you did not want a 4 sided board.

So again, the answer to your question is like most answers that you have received from myself and others, it’s up to the designer.

I hope this helps.

It was NOT me who suggested a 3 layer board at all, and once again I will state that your proposed 3-layer double-blind-via board cannot be manufactured by normal processes. What you think you can develop and what is actually done in the real world by PCB fabs are totally unrelated.

And, yet again, I will ask: DOES YOUR SOFTWARE take manufacturability into account? Do you have the ability to specify a stackup and control what type of via may connect to where with your optional optimization process? Fairly simple questions, with simple answers, and asked for your benefit, not mine.

[Iliya]

So how do you propose drilling and plating a blind via on that?

I worked for several years as a photolith process development engineer for Ferranti, National Semiconductors and Motorola on IC production lines; so I could quickly develop a process to make your board.

Though, you need to ask why you want to make a 3 board in the first place. It was you who suggested it. I assume you would approach your manufacturer and tell them what you wanted and I suspect they would ask you why you did not want a 4 sided board.

So again, the answer to your question is like most answers that you have received from myself and others, it’s up to the designer.

I hope this helps.

It was NOT me who suggested a 3 layer board at all, and once again I will state that your proposed 3-layer double-blind-via board cannot be manufactured by normal processes. What you think you can develop and what is actually done in the real world by PCB fabs are totally unrelated.

And, yet again, I will ask: DOES YOUR SOFTWARE take manufacturability into account? Do you have the ability to specify a stackup and control what type of via may connect to where with your optional optimization process? Fairly simple questions, with simple answers, and asked for your benefit, not mine.

Yes it does. I suggest you download the software and try it. You can even design your 3 layer board if you wish; I'm sure you will find somebody who can make it.

[Monkeh]

Yes it does. I suggest you download the software and try it.

I did a while ago and decided to stay where I am. I know my software, it works, it does not have an awkward developer, and it accepts the designs I have already made without making a tangled mess of them or crashing (yes, I am talking about DEX making a mess or crashing. Eagle importing didn't work so well last time I tried it.).

Thank you for answering something without twisting words.. at least until your third sentence.

You can even design your 3 layer board if you wish; I'm sure you will find somebody who can make it.

You either have a severe comprehension problem or you're one of those trolls you keep complaining about.

[Iliya]

Sorry, but the current version costs money and I already said I'm not paying you a penny. It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you. And yet I'm still here spending a little of my time trying to help you improve your software for others.

 It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you.

Umm, then all these often negative posts by you are really personal. Is that correct? What have I don't to upset you so much?

Actually no, they're not. But if you want to know why I don't like you.. read some of your own posts.

'I don't like you.. read some of your own posts.' That's not a good answer. There are 351 post. Can you please elucidate? Thanks.

[Monkeh]

Sorry, but the current version costs money and I already said I'm not paying you a penny. It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you. And yet I'm still here spending a little of my time trying to help you improve your software for others.

 It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you.

Umm, then all these often negative posts by you are really personal. Is that correct? What have I don't to upset you so much?

Actually no, they're not. But if you want to know why I don't like you.. read some of your own posts.

'I don't like you.. read some of your own posts.' That's not a good answer. Can you pleaseelucidate? Thanks.

Read the last page of your word twisting (please show me where I suggested or desired a 3 layer board), go back a few months and see yourself insulting people for imperfect spelling and grammar (while being guilty of the same yourself), constantly calling people trolls, playing innocent after switching back and forth on requiring an installation password (and an email address to go with it..)..

[Iliya]

Yes it does. I suggest you download the software and try it.

I did a while ago and decided to stay where I am. I know my software, it works, it does not have an awkward developer, and it accepts the designs I have already made without making a tangled mess of them or crashing (yes, I am talking about DEX making a mess or crashing. Eagle importing didn't work so well last time I tried it.).

Thank you for answering something without twisting words.. at least until your third sentence.

You can even design your 3 layer board if you wish; I'm sure you will find somebody who can make it.

You either have a severe comprehension problem or you're one of those trolls you keep complaining about.

You have posted many questions/comments about AutoTRAX. You say you dislike me and as a result will never use AutoTRAX. Why are you still posting message? It seems you are an Eagle user; why change?

In Internet slang, a troll (/?tro?l/, /?tr?l/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion - Wikipedia

[Monkeh]

You have posted many questions/comments about AutoTRAX. You say you dislike me and as a result will never use AutoTRAX. Why are you still posting message? It seems you are an Eagle user; why change?

I am posting because I'm hoping to assist you in improving your product, despite my disinterest in using it and my dislike of you. Despite the many problems I see it has potential as an affordable and capable tool. But you seem to have difficulty with accepting help.

In Internet slang, a troll (/?tro?l/, /?tr?l/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion - Wikipedia

So, you fit the description very nicely yourself.

[Iliya]

Sorry, but the current version costs money and I already said I'm not paying you a penny. It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you. And yet I'm still here spending a little of my time trying to help you improve your software for others.

 It's nothing to do with the tool, either, it's you.

Umm, then all these often negative posts by you are really personal. Is that correct? What have I don't to upset you so much?

Actually no, they're not. But if you want to know why I don't like you.. read some of your own posts.

'I don't like you.. read some of your own posts.' That's not a good answer. Can you pleaseelucidate? Thanks.

Read the last page of your word twisting (please show me where I suggested or desired a 3 layer board), go back a few months and see yourself insulting people for imperfect spelling and grammar (while being guilty of the same yourself), constantly calling people trolls, playing innocent after switching back and forth on requiring an installation password (and an email address to go with it..)..

AutoTRAX does not require an email address or password to install. Again, please try it, you will be pleasantly surprised. http://kov.com

[Monkeh]

AutoTRAX does not require an email address or password to install.

It doesn't at this time (I'll take your word for it, anyway). It has at numerous times in the past, and you have pleaded ignorance on at least one occasion as to the restoration of this policy.

Again, please try it, you will be pleasantly surprised. http://pcb.software

No, I won't be pleasantly surprised, and I honestly am not sure why you persist in telling me to use it. Is it blind salesmanship, a lack of comprehension, or just trolling?

[Iliya]

You have posted many questions/comments about AutoTRAX. You say you dislike me and as a result will never use AutoTRAX. Why are you still posting message? It seems you are an Eagle user; why change?

I am posting because I'm hoping to assist you in improving your product, despite my disinterest in using it and my dislike of you. Despite the many problems I see it has potential as an affordable and capable tool. But you seem to have difficulty with accepting help.

In Internet slang, a troll (/?tro?l/, /?tr?l/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion - Wikipedia

So, you fit the description very nicely yourself.

Well if that's how you see it, then as Charlie would say... 'good for you'! Anyway, enough of this jolly banter, I'm off to make AutoTRAX even better. I've another idea on via and pad optimization to quickly implement.

[Iliya]

A while back free_electron mentioned his desire to be a able to enter the units for a numerical input that were different to the currently set units e.g. 4 mil or 5 thou when units are mm. I am close to finishing this and hopefully will have this out later this week.
I'm also thinking about being able to enter simple equations such as  1+2*3.1/11mm There is already a calculator popup, but this would be easier.

[Monkeh]

A while back free_electron mentioned his desire to be a able to enter the units for a numerical input that were different to the currently set units e.g. 4 mil or 5 thou when units are mm. I am close to finishing this and hopefully will have this out later this week.
I'm also think about being able to enter simple equations such as  1+2*3.1/11mm There is already a calculator popup, but this would be easier.

Excellent! The former is an important feature and the latter will surely be useful.