DEX eval by free_electron

[Iliya]

4.  Lack of a paste mask.  This is really a substantial flaw, and I haven't figured out a viable workaround.  This problem wasn't obvious to me since I do all my paste applications manually, but it really needs to be there for anyone who sends boards out.  It is almost inconceivable to do even hobby scale boards these days without surface mount.

There is no solder paste layer. There is no need. However, a solder paste Gerber file will be automatically generated if needed. All surface mount pads have solder paste automatically added unless the add solder paste is turned off. In this case you would add a custom solder paste area over the pad. So, to conclude, solder paste Gerber files are automatically generated and DEX does not require a solder paste a layer. If you are looking for a solder paste layer you will not find one. So there is no substantial flaw.

Yes, this is radical, but only to people who are so used to adding layers everywhere. To others it may appear commonsense. A classic example is in Eagle where you have to add a layer to set the color of a line in the schematic if the color is not already defined on an existing layer.

The same applies to the solder resist layer.

[c4757p]

There is no solder paste layer. There is no need. However, a solder paste Gerber file will be automatically generated if needed. All surface mount pads have solder paste automatically added unless the add solder paste is turned off. In this case you would add a custom solder paste area over the pad. So, to conclude, solder paste Gerber files are automatically generated and DEX does not require a solder paste a layer. If you are looking for a solder paste layer you will not find one.

...

The same applies to the solder resist layer.

Find someone who has actually done manufacturing and have a little chat with him, please.

[Iliya]

As for unneeded layers, currently DEX has a net layer. This is used for unrouted track segments. However, this is redundant and so I will remove it in the very near future. It is not needed and physically irrelevant. I have seen unrouted track segments referred to air wires. I don't know what an air wire is; never seen one. I'm sorry if this upsets people but that is how DEX does it. Sometimes you have to question old-fashioned ways of doing things because sometimes they are wrong.

[Iliya]

There is no solder paste layer. There is no need. However, a solder paste Gerber file will be automatically generated if needed. All surface mount pads have solder paste automatically added unless the add solder paste is turned off. In this case you would add a custom solder paste area over the pad. So, to conclude, solder paste Gerber files are automatically generated and DEX does not require a solder paste a layer. If you are looking for a solder paste layer you will not find one.

...

The same applies to the solder resist layer.

Find someone who has actually done manufacturing and have a little chat with him, please.

Why don't you present a logical case for a solder paste layer?

[Monkeh]

Sometimes you have to question old-fashioned ways of doing things because sometimes they are wrong.

Or reject them out of hand, like standard file formats..

[c4757p]

In particular, applying a pattern of paste that does not match the shape of the pad, which is the usual case for large thermal pads.

As for unneeded layers, currently DEX has a net layer. This is used for unrouted track segments. However, this is redundant and so I will remove it in the very near future. It is not needed and physically irrelevant. I have seen unrouted track segments referred to air wires. I don't know what an air wire is; never seen one. I'm sorry if this upsets people but that is how DEX does it. Sometimes you have to question old-fashioned ways of doing things because sometimes they are wrong.

Translation: I have no clue what I'm doing, so I'm going to just keep calling everybody else wrong.

[Iliya]

Sometimes you have to question old-fashioned ways of doing things because sometimes they are wrong.

Or reject them out of hand, like standard file formats..

Why don't you present a logical case for a solder paste layer in the layers dialog? The solder paster gerber files are generated by DEX.

[Monkeh]

Sometimes you have to question old-fashioned ways of doing things because sometimes they are wrong.

Or reject them out of hand, like standard file formats..

Why don't you present a logical case for a solder paste layer in the layers dialog? The solder paster gerber files are generated by DEX.

I'm not even tackling that potential problem right now. But if you actually read..

[Iliya]

In particular, applying a pattern of paste that does not match the shape of the pad, which is the usual case for large thermal pads.

As for unneeded layers, currently DEX has a net layer. This is used for unrouted track segments. However, this is redundant and so I will remove it in the very near future. It is not needed and physically irrelevant. I have seen unrouted track segments referred to air wires. I don't know what an air wire is; never seen one. I'm sorry if this upsets people but that is how DEX does it. Sometimes you have to question old-fashioned ways of doing things because sometimes they are wrong.

Translation: I have no clue what I'm doing, so I'm going to just keep calling everybody else wrong.

Why don't you present a logical case for a net layer in the layers dialog instead of accusing me on not have a clue. Be constructive and present a logical case. If your logic is sound then I will implement a net layer.

[Iliya]

Sometimes you have to question old-fashioned ways of doing things because sometimes they are wrong.

Or reject them out of hand, like standard file formats..

Why don't you present a logical case for a solder paste layer in the layers dialog? The solder paster gerber files are generated by DEX.

I'm not even tackling that potential problem right now. But if you actually read..

I'm sorry you feel that way. So I'll  keep things as they are. Thanks for your constructive feedback.

[Monkeh]

I'm sorry you feel that way. So I'll  keep things as they are. Thanks for your constructive feedback.

Which things? The solder mask I haven't even looked at or your lack of support for the two formats provided by every manufacturer on the planet?

[Mechatrommer]

Yes, this is radical, but only to people who are so used to adding layers everywhere. To others it may appear commonsense. A classic example is in Eagle where you have to add a layer to set the color of a line in the schematic if the color is not already defined on an existing layer.
The same applies to the solder resist layer.

yes radical. but now users cant add layer as they wish. you cant draw schematic in different layer for later to turn on and off for better visualisation, same to solder paste layer. dex cant do that anymore because its radical, everything automatic no manual override knob. you made a good intent to make shortcut to your users, but unintentionally cripple the capability.

[c4757p]

I just gave you a use case for a paste layer, and I suggest you read it.

[Iliya]

Yes, this is radical, but only to people who are so used to adding layers everywhere. To others it may appear commonsense. A classic example is in Eagle where you have to add a layer to set the color of a line in the schematic if the color is not already defined on an existing layer.
The same applies to the solder resist layer.

yes radical. but now users cant add layer as they wish. you cant draw schematic in different layer for later to turn on and off for better visualisation, same to solder paste layer. dex cant do that anymore because its radical, everything automatic no manual override knob. you made a good intent to make shortcut to your users, but unintentionally cripple the capability.

There is a checkbox in the layers panel to show the solder mask layer. So, nothing is crippled.

[Iliya]

I just gave you a use case for a paste layer, and I suggest you read it.

I also told you how to create a custom paste area.  So there is absolutely no need for a solder paste layer. You could have a solder paste object that would automatically generate a solder mask cutout for itself and they could be a simple checkbox for showing hiding additional solder mask areas. For instance, AutoTRAX does not put courtyards on their own layer, it simply has a checkbox that tells courtyards whether they need to be displayed are not.

[c4757p]

I just gave you a use case for a paste layer, and I suggest you read it.

I also told you how to create a custom paste area.  So there is absolutely no need for a solder paste layer. You could have a solder paste object that would automatically generate a solder mask cutout for itself and they could be a simple checkbox for showing hiding additional solder mask areas. For instance, AutoTRAX does not put courtyards on their own layer, it simply has a checkbox that tells courtyards whether they need to be displayed are not.

In other words, you have a paste layer but you don't call it that. Why? Confusion? Or just for the sake of being "different"?

[Iliya]

I just gave you a use case for a paste layer, and I suggest you read it.

I also told you how to create a custom paste area.  So there is absolutely no need for a solder paste layer. You could have a solder paste object that would automatically generate a solder mask cutout for itself and they could be a simple checkbox for showing hiding additional solder mask areas. For instance, AutoTRAX does not put courtyards on their own layer, it simply has a checkbox that tells courtyards whether they need to be displayed are not.

In other words, you have a paste layer but you don't call it that. Why? Confusion? Or just for the sake of being "different"?

Can you please reread the posts. There is no layer. There is no need. There is no pad layer, there is no via layer etc.

[Iliya]

Courtyards, I am going to extend them so a courtyard is capable of presented itself both on the top and bottom side of the footprint, and in addition allowing the courtyard to be non-rectangular. It will be possible for the courtyard, if the user so wishes, to be elliptical, polygonal or even a closed Bezier piecewise curve. I expect ,howls a protest, but there is a reason I'm doing this. So the courtyard is a single object will know how to represent itself on both sides of the board. Perhaps this is too radical for some. But no problem, just keep your courtyards rectangular.

[c4757p]

Can you please reread the posts. There is no layer. There is no need. There is no pad layer, there is no via layer etc.

A set of like objects that can be turned on and off is a "layer", dude. That's what a layer is. You're just confusing people by choosing to call some of them something different.

[free_electron]

Hold it. Please watch the video i have made where i create the footprint : watch how that lattice structure is created in the paste mask.
This is needed for assembly of the board.

The assembly house that will solder the components will ask the PCB designer to give them the mask layer. (Layer means : a single Gerber file)  Even if the program internally treats these things as object, at a certain point they are all collected and sent to a single Gerber file.  That is why we call those a layer. They may not sit in a 'layer' inside the program , they are a layer of the Gerber stack.

We don't know how the program internally works. All we can say is : at the end of the day we need a single Gerber file with the information of all the openings we need to create the paste mask. In 'Gerber' speak : each file defines 1 layer in the Gerber stack.  Irrespective of how the cad program does it internally. It may very well be that the paste definition is simply a parameter attached to the pads and , as such, does not exist as a drawing layer in the computer. When output is generated the parameters are collected and sent to the Gerber processor. Fine. The 'layer' is created at that point.

So when PCB designers talk about layers they talk about GERBER layers.
The reason they call em layers is because they were fotoplotted on film. Put the films on top of each other to get the board. 1 film = 1 layer in the stack.


The assembly house will NOT alter the mask. If they experience problems during manufacturing they will call you and tell you : you need to decrease the paste x amount smaller or larger than the pad for this component , you need a lattice here of such and such.

At that point the OCB designer needs the capability of a manual override.

Having an automatically generated paste mask is good, but you need to retain the capability to override. Override is not a 'global' setting. It needs to be per pad. Each pad needs to be able to be manipulated individually and this information needs to be set in the library. You set it up correctly , once , in the library and then you can forget about it.

So : we need individual access to the paste defintion per pad, and the ability insert 'paste objects'.
I suspect DEX already has both. (from what Iliya showed me off-site)

The same goes for airwires. (ratsnest)

Layout happens in stages.

You place a few parts, wire some stuff locally and you create an escape path. Meaning you draw the wires leaving the drawn cluster. These wires stop midpoint. They will be completed at a later point in time. You need to place them so the area required is reserved.

The airwire needs to be shown from the end of the placed tract to where it finally needs to go. This gives visual feedback to the layouter so he can make an estimate of routing density and spatial placement. PCB designers have been screaming for airwire (especially airwires that auto-adjust to always show the shortest pathway) and density maps for years when the first layout programs became available.

Don't take them away. 

You are thinking 'old skool' where you would have the pad on the rubylith: take your roll of black tape and make a connection end-to-end. That is indeed how it was done. As soon as airwires were introduced that technique was the first one to end up in the trash can. Too often you had to strip the tape and retry mid-design. Airwires avoid that problem as they give you a visual que of the density.

[Monkeh]

Airwires avoid that problem as they give you a visual que of the density.

Your entire post is now irrelevant as you got one word wrong.

[Iliya]

Can you please reread the posts. There is no layer. There is no need. There is no pad layer, there is no via layer etc.

A set of like objects that can be turned on and off is a "layer", dude. That's what a layer is. You're just confusing people by choosing to call some of them something different.

Sorry, but you are the one that is confusing things. A layer is often used to contain a variety of things for instance in AutoCAD the first floor of the building may be under layer on that floor may contain furniture and other artefacts that only connected by the fact that they are on the same layer. This does not apply to the solder mask holes and solder paste. The objects of the same type.

[c4757p]

We're not designing buildings in AutoCAD. PCB design uses slightly different terms.

[Iliya]

Hold it. Please watch the video i have made where i create the footprint : watch how that lattice structure is created in the paste mask.
This is needed for assembly of the board. The assembly house that will solder the components will ask the PCB designer to give them the mask layer. The assembly house will NOT alter the mask. If they experience problems during manufacturing they will call you and tell you : you need to decrease the paste x amount smaller or larger than the pad for this component , you need a lattice here of such and such.

At that point the OCB designer needs the capability of a manual override.

Having an automatically generated paste mask is good, but you need to retain the capability to override. Override is not a 'global' setting. It needs to be per pad. Each pad needs to be able to be manipulated individually and this information needs to be set in the library. You set it up correctly , once , in the library and then you can forget about it.

The same goes for airwires. (ratsnest)

Layout happens in stages.

You place a few parts, wire some stuff locally and you create an escape path. Meaning you draw the wires leaving the drawn cluster. These wires stop midpoint. They will be completed at a later point in time. You need to place them so the area required is reserved.

The airwire needs to be shown from the end of the placed tract to where it finally needs to go. This gives visual feedback to the layouter so he can make an estimate of routing density and spatial placement. PCB designers have been screaming for airwire (especially airwires that auto-adjust to always show the shortest pathway) and density maps for years when the first layout programs became available.

Don't take them away. 

You are thinking 'old skool' where you would have the pad on the rubylith: take your roll of black tape and make a connection end-to-end. That is indeed how it was done. As soon as airwires were introduced that technique was the first one to end up in the trash can. Too often you had to strip the tape and retry mid-design. Airwires avoid that problem as they give you a visual que of the density.

I am not taking your 'air wires' away, but I’m not using a net layer to control the visibility.

As for the shortest route, AutoTRAX already shows a suggested minimum acyclic graph for un-routed tracks. There are several videos that show this. Also, when manually routing an indicating arrow suggests the nearest track, pad or via to connect.

It is possible in DEX for a single pad to define more than one solder paste area. It is also possible for a single pad to have multiple no mask areas. So AutoTRAX, does all these things that are required but not with layers.

[Wytnucls]

It doesn't matter what it's called, as long as it generates a Gerber file and the paste can be manipulated like Vincent suggests.