Author Topic: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.  (Read 571218 times)

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Offline TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3325 on: February 20, 2023, 04:54:45 pm »
"Here lies the body of Johnny O'Day
Who died Preserving His Right of Way.
He was Right, Dead Right, as he sailed along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong"

classic poem

I've also seen a limerick with 
"His right was clear,
His will was strong"
before the last line.
 
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Offline ElectricToothpaste27

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3326 on: February 20, 2023, 04:58:10 pm »
when people say "roll the dice" when there's only a single die. I don't know why I've heard so many people say that.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3327 on: February 20, 2023, 05:25:39 pm »
Dice is singular as well as plural. The plural of die is dies.

Quote from: ODE
noun (plural same)1.A small cube with each side having a different number of spots on it, ranging from one to six, thrown and used in gambling and other games involving chance. See also die2.
• [mass noun] a game played with dice
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3328 on: February 20, 2023, 05:31:03 pm »
Did you mean "OED"?
I prefer careful usage, with "die" singular and "dice" plural.
Also, "datum" singular and "data" plural:  that distinction is very useful.
However, I do not insist on "Ampices" as the plural of "Ampex".
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3329 on: February 20, 2023, 05:34:36 pm »
Dice is singular as well as plural. The plural of die is dies.

Quote from: ODE
noun (plural same)1.A small cube with each side having a different number of spots on it, ranging from one to six, thrown and used in gambling and other games involving chance. See also die2.
• [mass noun] a game played with dice

Did you mean "OED"?
I prefer careful usage, with "die" singular and "dice" plural.
Also, "datum" singular and "data" plural:  that distinction is very useful.
However, I do not insist on "Ampices" as the plural of "Ampex".

Google translate shows for the Dutch singular "dobbelsteen" the word "die". For the Dutch plural "dobbelstenen" it shows "dice", so what is correct here.

I always thought it to be like what PlainName mentioned

Offline PlainName

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3330 on: February 20, 2023, 05:37:48 pm »
Did you mean "OED"?

Oxford Dictionary of English. My version of the SOED says:

Quote from: Shorter Oxford English Dictionary
II sing.3 A small cube whose six faces are marked with from one to six spots, thrown and used in games of chance; a die. lME.
E. Haywood Never to touch a card or throw a dice again. fig.: T. D'Urfey The uncertain Dice of Fate thus far runs well.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3331 on: February 20, 2023, 05:44:33 pm »
Quote
Google translate shows for the Dutch singular "dobbelsteen" the word "die".

I would go with whatever has the words Oxford, English and Dictionary in its title over Google. But worth considering that the Dutch word isn't necessarily directly translatable, or once translated the 'other' usage of dice is assumed.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3332 on: February 20, 2023, 06:06:41 pm »
Trust me "dobbelsteen" is the exact Dutch word for a cube with different number of spots on each side indicating the numbers one to six.  :-+

And according to your quotes from the ODE and the SOED it is a "die" as well as a "dice"  :)

Offline eti

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3333 on: February 20, 2023, 06:47:37 pm »
Bars that have music playing that's too loud to have a conversation with the people on the other side of the table. If I go out to a bar it's because I want to talk to people over a drink, if I wanted to listen to loud music I could do that at home.

Tbh, music is probably more enjoyable than most of the utter rubbish people talk about 😂
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3334 on: February 20, 2023, 07:09:46 pm »
Did you mean "OED"?

Oxford Dictionary of English. My version of the SOED says:

Quote from: Shorter Oxford English Dictionary
II sing.3 A small cube whose six faces are marked with from one to six spots, thrown and used in games of chance; a die. lME.
E. Haywood Never to touch a card or throw a dice again. fig.: T. D'Urfey The uncertain Dice of Fate thus far runs well.

Your version of the "Shorter Oxford English Dictionary" is derived from the longer OED (never abbreviated ODE), and omits most obsolete words except those in Shakespeare, Milton, and the King James Bible.
The full Oxford English Dictionary (originally "A New English Dictionary on Historical Principles; Founded Mainly on the Materials Collected by The Philological Society") set out to be a descriptive dictionary, documenting actual usage as it changed over history, including words that have gone obsolete or archaic.
It is not a "prescriptive" dictionary that gives guidance on careful usage.
I own the photographically reduced printings of the First and Second editions;  they decided not to print the Third edition, to which you must subscribe online.
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3335 on: February 20, 2023, 07:11:05 pm »
Bars that have music playing that's too loud to have a conversation with the people on the other side of the table. If I go out to a bar it's because I want to talk to people over a drink, if I wanted to listen to loud music I could do that at home.

Tbh, music is probably more enjoyable than most of the utter rubbish people talk about 😂

Your music may not be as enjoyable to me as my conversation with friends.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3336 on: February 20, 2023, 07:16:14 pm »
Quote
And according to your quotes from the ODE and the SOED it is a "die" as well as a "dice"

Hmmm. Fair cop  :P
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3337 on: February 20, 2023, 07:18:35 pm »
Bars that have music playing that's too loud to have a conversation with the people on the other side of the table. If I go out to a bar it's because I want to talk to people over a drink, if I wanted to listen to loud music I could do that at home.

Tbh, music is probably more enjoyable than most of the utter rubbish people talk about 😂

Your music may not be as enjoyable to me as my conversation with friends.

If you want to listen to music in public, put on headphones, it sounds better that way anyway. If the conversation is not interesting then what is the point of being at a social gathering? Go somewhere else.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3338 on: February 20, 2023, 07:24:45 pm »
Die and dice:
If you say, "throw the dice" instead of "throw the die", it does not sound bad to a English-speaking auditor.
However, if George III had said "the dice is cast" instead of "the die is cast", people would have thought him mad.
 

Online RJSV

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3339 on: February 20, 2023, 07:29:28 pm »
Wouldn't it be 'The dice ARE cast ?'
just sayin
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3340 on: February 20, 2023, 07:47:30 pm »
Quote
if George III had said "the dice is cast"

As RJH suggests, shouldn't it be ARE cast? However, I think we've moved on a little since the time of George III and much of what was the norm then is quiet foreign now.

Also, I think it very clear what dice is, whereas die has several competing meanings. Might George have suggested the mould for whatever was finalised, rather than bits of wood (or ivory) being tumbled around? Obviously not, but... you never know.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3341 on: February 20, 2023, 07:51:20 pm »
Or was he just spreading "death"  :-DD

Also a meaning of "die"

Offline TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3342 on: February 20, 2023, 08:19:47 pm »
Wouldn't it be 'The dice ARE cast ?'
just sayin

George III, upon hearing about the rebellion across the Atlantic, quoted the Latin phrase (attributed to Caesar) "iacta alea est" = "the die is cast".
If dice be singular, then throwing one would be "dice is cast".
Hence my illustration of why one should use "die" as the singular:  "dice is" grates!
Historically, "dice" is the irregular plural of "die", as "mice" is the irregular plural of "mouse".
 

Offline Infraviolet

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3343 on: February 20, 2023, 08:26:00 pm »
But eti, post #3333, we only go to the pub with other engineers, there aren't any braindead people at our tables who we need to block out.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3344 on: February 20, 2023, 08:53:05 pm »
Or was he just spreading "death"  :-DD

Also a meaning of "die"

In English, "die" in that meaning is a verb, while "death" is a noun.
However, "die" as in a casting or coining tool has the plural form "dies".
Unfortunately, modern English uses the noun "sheep" as both singular and plural forms, but it is usually useful to distinguish singular and plural forms of common nouns, with an added "s" in English for "regular" nouns.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3345 on: February 20, 2023, 08:58:04 pm »
Quote
If dice be singular, then throwing one would be "dice is cast"

It is both singular and plural, so your reasoning is misplaced.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3346 on: February 20, 2023, 09:24:37 pm »
Quote
If dice be singular, then throwing one would be "dice is cast"

It is both singular and plural, so your reasoning is misplaced.

Nonsense.
If one uses "dice" as a singular noun in the subject of a sentence, then the verb is also singular:  "The dice is white."
If one uses "dice" as a plural noun in the subject, the verb is plural:  "The dice are blue."
Agreement of subject and verb number is a fundamental rule of English grammar.
If one accepts "dice" as singular, then "The dice is white." is grammatically correct, but I submit it sounds bad.
The verb in each sentence, then, would tell the listener if there be one or more dice.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 09:30:29 pm by TimFox »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3347 on: February 20, 2023, 09:31:41 pm »
Well not being old enough to have learnt any Latin at school, I will bow to your greater knowledge :)
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3348 on: February 20, 2023, 09:45:45 pm »
This is English, not Latin, grammar.
As I said, unfortunately "sheep" can be singular or plural.
"The first sheep is in the fold, but the other sheep are in the field."

A very interesting book:  "Grammatica Linguae Anglicanae" (Grammar of the English Language) came out in six editions (last in 1765, posthumously) by the mathematician John Wallis, 1616-1703, an important early member of the Royal Society).  There is a modern edition and translation by J A Kemp published by Longmans in 1972.
He was one of the first to emphasize that  Latin grammar is not useful to understand English (declension of noun cases is not a thing).
As befits a scholar of his era, it was published in Latin, just as Newton and the other Royal Society members did.

 

Online themadhippy

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Re: Your pet peeve, technical or otherwise.
« Reply #3349 on: February 20, 2023, 10:03:52 pm »
Quote
This is English, not Latin, grammar.
yep and it us english who  decide how its used  it,now go away and learn how to spell colour ,  labour and humour correctly
 


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