Working From Home - Impacts of Coronavirus

[EEVblog]

I understand your point about over hygiene, but now you are digging your hole deeper by saying "oh well, those people weren't going to live long anyway" 

That is a cultural thing. *snip*....

aaaaand deeper. All because you are trying to defend the ridiculous position that improved hygiene because of this whole crisis thing is not good thing.
Give up.

Now you move the goalposts again after stating you agree with overdoing hygiene. But I'll play along: Try to explain how improved hygiene will help. Put some numbers on it.

Wow, how dumb is this. Ok, Let's a say million people die of the flu every year, not to mention the untold numbers who catch it and have to stay off work or whatever. Huge impact on society, and that's just he seasons flu. To think that improved personal and societal hygiene standards and habits isn't going to help with this and other things is just completely asinine. It's beyond dumb to think that.

The fact is that improved hygiene only takes you so far and we are way past the point where extra hygiene brings us some extra.

Now YOU get to back that up with numbers. Go ahead and try and prove that better hygiene in society is not going to help things. Go on, please big your hole even further.

I'm not taking your other bait and will not debate this further with you, but respond if you want.

[SiliconWizard]

Alright - this is getting silly indeed.

Whereas excessive hygiene (but we are talking really EXCESSIVE here) may weaken our immune systems in the long run, from what I had read, this is really true for babies - first couple years of life basically. I'm not sure there is any proof that once our immune system is mature, excessive hygiene may weaken it. You'd really have to live inside a bubble to be exposed to so few pathogens that your immune system would eventually get into some kind of sleep mode anyway.

Now some pathogens like seasonal flu viruses are particularly "annoying"... our immune systems can never really get immune to them, they mutate constantly. So for them, more hygiene certainly helps. Even just washing your hands regularly during the day does help a lot.

We're not talking about putting people in isolated bubbles either. At least, I hope not!

[EEVblog]

Some of you may know that I am a volunteer at The National Museum of Computing.

The lock down is having servere financial impacts to charites and museums.
The National Museum of Computing is a Not for profit organisation and set up as a charity.
The income from ticket sales has dried up but the bills for rent still have to be paid.

So please can I ask EEVBlog forum member to dig deep and help support the National Museum of Computing :
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/fuelling-the-future-powering-the-past?tk=b26125afe72adc6ed9d367aa05e86964ed1b9641
I know that some of you have already visited, For those that have not, I look foward to seeing you after the lock down is lifted.

Wow, yeah, that sucks, would be countless places like that that would be impacted. It will be impossible to know the final numbers of failed businesses and other things from all this mandatory lock down stuff.
And it will likely be impossible to know to exactly how effective were the lock downs, as there is basically no direct control group to compare with.

[SiliconWizard]

It will be impossible to know the final numbers of failed businesses and other things from all this mandatory lock down stuff.

True, but it will be possible to compare the number of failed businesses from the start of the crisis up to the next couple of years, and compare this to the numbers in the last 10 years for instance. That will be no proof, but should give us an idea.

And it will likely be impossible to know to exactly how effective were the lock downs, as there is basically no direct control group to compare with.

Indeed. Lock downs have not been exactly the same from country to country, but their respective population, geography, climate, etc are also different. So there is no valid control group to speak of.

[EEVblog]

Alright - this is getting silly indeed.
Whereas excessive hygiene (but we are talking really EXCESSIVE here) may weaken our immune systems in the long run, from what I had read, this is really true for babies - first couple years of life basically. I'm not sure there is any proof that once our immune system is mature, excessive hygiene may weaken it. You'd really have to live inside a bubble to be exposed to so few pathogens that your immune system would eventually get into some kind of sleep mode anyway.
Now some pathogens like seasonal flu viruses are particularly "annoying"... our immune systems can never really get immune to them, they mutate constantly. So for them, more hygiene certainly helps. Even just washing your hands regularly during the day does help a lot.
We're not talking about putting people in isolated bubbles either. At least, I hope not!

Nailed it.
These are demonstrable facts.
And yep, I'm all for kids eating dirt.
Mrs EEVblog and I have always been quite vigilant with the kids in terms of basic hygiene, we've always carried a disinfectant spray bottle before it became trendy for example. But they are still massive petri dishes, it's just unavoidable. Good hygiene helps a lot though. To think we were already at "peak hygiene" is so

[GreyWoolfe]

In the Netherlands a lot of older people (my own elderly relatives included) have 'do not resuscitate' / 'do not ventilate' statements. They rather die in dignity (in their own home) than suffering in a hospital and then dying with a lot of tubes sticking out of them OR survive but being stuck in a bed, wheelchair, etc. In the Netherlands it is becoming more and more common that elderly people die on their own terms instead of sticking around to just please their family members.

Same here, Mrs GreyWoolfe and I have DNR statements filed with our primary care physician.  This way, if either of us in incapacitated, our wishes will be followed.  Neither of us want to be a burden on the other and family.

[EEVblog]

It will be impossible to know the final numbers of failed businesses and other things from all this mandatory lock down stuff.

True, but it will be possible to compare the number of failed businesses from the start of the crisis up to the next couple of years, and compare this to the numbers in the last 10 years for instance. That will be no proof, but should give us an idea.

I'm sure he jump on the graph will be order of magnitude level stuff.

And it will likely be impossible to know to exactly how effective were the lock downs, as there is basically no direct control group to compare with.

Indeed. Lock downs have not been exactly the same from country to country, but their respective population, geography, climate, etc are also different. So there is no valid control group to speak of.

That won't stop governments and other actors claiming this though, beware of dodgy long term fake analyses to try and prove their decisions were the rights ones.
But the politicians aren't dumb, they know it's no-lose for them to do whatever lock downs measures they like. When the numbers do drop, they can claim that's the reason and you'll have little if any data to prove otherwise. If numbers don't drop for some reason, they can just claim the sheeple didn't follow the rules enough. Clever.

[SiliconWizard]

But the politicians aren't dumb, they know it's no-lose for them to do whatever lock downs measures they like. When the numbers do drop, they can claim that's the reason and you'll have little if any data to prove otherwise. If numbers don't drop for some reason, they can just claim the sheeple didn't follow the rules enough. Clever.

People in power are always right. Until they get their heads chopped off.

Likewise, in countries where lock downs have been less stringent, and economy has been less impacted, politicians will brag they were right about it too.

Unfortunately, predicting how an epidemic will evolve is a very complex matter. Models are always simplified. It's probably not as complex, but similar to predicting climate changes. So in the same vein, politicians manage to be always right, whereas in reality we are probably ALL wrong.

[paulca]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448690/
"Too clean, or not too clean: the Hygiene Hypothesis and home hygiene"


It's been researched for quite a while.  Certainly in the disguise of children's allergy increase.

[coppice]

But the politicians aren't dumb, they know it's no-lose for them to do whatever lock downs measures they like. When the numbers do drop, they can claim that's the reason and you'll have little if any data to prove otherwise. If numbers don't drop for some reason, they can just claim the sheeple didn't follow the rules enough. Clever.

If they screw up the economy so badly people start losing their homes and going hungry they might find they can lose, whatever happens to the death rate from COVID-19.

[Mr. Scram]

If they screw up the economy so badly people start losing their homes and going hungry they might find they can lose, whatever happens to the death rate from COVID-19.

The economy would have taken a serious hit either way.

[nctnico]

So in the same vein, politicians manage to be always right, whereas in reality we are probably ALL wrong.

Oddly enough the latter is precisely what the PM of the Netherlands is saying. He stated "It is impossible to avoid errors in the middle of a crisis; we are going to evaluate later".

[cdev]

But the politicians aren't dumb, they know it's no-lose for them to do whatever lock downs measures they like. When the numbers do drop, they can claim that's the reason and you'll have little if any data to prove otherwise. If numbers don't drop for some reason, they can just claim the sheeple didn't follow the rules enough. Clever.

If they screw up the economy so badly people start losing their homes and going hungry they might find they can lose, whatever happens to the death rate from COVID-19.

I don't know. With your higher minimum wage, etc. it seems Australia has for a long time trying to attract a slightly better kind of international investment, but then again, Ive never been to Australia. But to me it seems like a really nice place, kind of how California used to be decades ago, before it turned into the battleground it is now.

The world has changed, sigificantly. We have to adapt to it and be better world citizens. Better safe than sorry.

The problem is, money rules now, over voters, Our leaders have very quietly set up a "rules based trading system" that has actually made the kinds of safety and policy behaviors we now need from governments arguably illegal for those governments to step in and do, unless its the very bare minimum regulation. Even in "emergencies" the rules are very explicit. Especially when it comes to things that might be construed as having "protectionist" motives.  Any kind of social assistance or governments helping people is likely prohibited.

(Although this may have changed somewhat, because its so insanely stupid, only time and some legal challenges,   will tell.)

 But those legal challenges woud only happen somewhere else, (than the US)

(Unless they are pre-rigged, then they are likely to happen here)

I mean proceedings in the WTO. Like, a few years ago Australia was brought into trade court over tobacco labeling rules.

The United States of today would never have enacted the tobacco rules we did in the 70s and 80s.

Because we want to be able to sell dog food as meat. (maybe not literally but you get the idea, the current owners of this franchise are much more pro business than they let on. All of them.)

So that means we're fucked, because my guess is, seeing more of these epidemics in the future they will clamp down hard so that companies investments will not be diminunated by global pandemics. That will mean the worst kinds of health policies.

Factories that were built to support a pre-coronavirus level of staffing?  They would rather move to some Third World country, than change how they operate.

I guess we'll see.

[EEVblog]

But the politicians aren't dumb, they know it's no-lose for them to do whatever lock downs measures they like. When the numbers do drop, they can claim that's the reason and you'll have little if any data to prove otherwise. If numbers don't drop for some reason, they can just claim the sheeple didn't follow the rules enough. Clever.

If they screw up the economy so badly people start losing their homes and going hungry they might find they can lose, whatever happens to the death rate from COVID-19.

Oh yeah, the politicians are already feeling the heat on the restrictions and have been forced by public opinion to ease restrictions. And our PM copped so much slack over suggesting the CovidSafe app might be mandatory that he had to publicly back down.
My fear is that lock downs will be a "new normal" and now that they have felt the lust of the power it gives them, they will enact it again at the drop of a hat. This must be resisted.

[EEVblog]

My remedial massage place just reopened 
That was a lifting of government restrictions BTW.

[Syntax Error]

Consistent with many peoples suspicion, and counter to official govern-mental 'evidence', France has confirmed it's first medically proven Covid19 case was in late December.

BBC News: Coronavirus: France's first known case 'was in December'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52526554

France24:A French hospital which has retested old samples from pneumonia patients discovered that it treated a man who had Covid-19 as early as Dec. 27, nearly a month before the French government confirmed its first cases. https://www.france24.com/en/20200505-france-s-first-known-covid-19-case-was-in-december

[paulca]

Consistent with many peoples suspicion, and counter to official govern-mental 'evidence', France has confirmed it's first medically proven Covid19 case was in late December.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  1 doctor, 1 test is not extraordinary.  I'll wait till this is investigated, peer reviewed and checked out.

[thinkfat]

Consistent with many peoples suspicion, and counter to official govern-mental 'evidence', France has confirmed it's first medically proven Covid19 case was in late December.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  1 doctor, 1 test is not extraordinary.  I'll wait till this is investigated, peer reviewed and checked out.

I don't quite see what extraordinary evidence this should be. A patient was tested positive. Apart from a contaminated sample, nothing can change that to be a non-evidence.

[JamesPatterson]

I'm gonna be working from home for a while, so I just might have to get used to the idea. Miss my desk, though, must admit that I'm a lot more productive when I work at the office. Had to put in extra hours to compensate since I've been working from home.

[paulca]

Consistent with many peoples suspicion, and counter to official govern-mental 'evidence', France has confirmed it's first medically proven Covid19 case was in late December.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  1 doctor, 1 test is not extraordinary.  I'll wait till this is investigated, peer reviewed and checked out.

I don't quite see what extraordinary evidence this should be. A patient was tested positive. Apart from a contaminated sample, nothing can change that to be a non-evidence.

It's evidence, but not enough evidence.  Tests are not 100% accurate.  Contaminated, miss labelled samples etc.

But it's not impossible for someone to have travelled from Wuhan to France late december either.

[nctnico]

Consistent with many peoples suspicion, and counter to official govern-mental 'evidence', France has confirmed it's first medically proven Covid19 case was in late December.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  1 doctor, 1 test is not extraordinary.  I'll wait till this is investigated, peer reviewed and checked out.

I don't quite see what extraordinary evidence this should be. A patient was tested positive. Apart from a contaminated sample, nothing can change that to be a non-evidence.

I agree. Lately this thread seems to have been taken over by government conspiracy theorists.

[EEVblog]

Consistent with many peoples suspicion, and counter to official govern-mental 'evidence', France has confirmed it's first medically proven Covid19 case was in late December.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Why would that claim be extraordinary? It's of no surprise what so ever. Wuhan had cases all through December, and we have these amazing things called airplanes that transport viruses around the world within days.
https://www.flightconnections.com/flights-from-wuhan-wuh

[cdev]

By the end of December the disease was already becoming problematic in Wuhan and many international businesses have operations there so people normally are flying in and out of Wuhan all of the time.

Globalization means many more coronaviruses and other illnesse will travel all over the globe, rapidly.

[paulca]

I am resistivity to it precisely because it plays right into the narrative of the conspiracy theorists. 

"It's all China's fault."
"China withheld data."
"It came from a Chinese lab".

Right along with the,

"They are lying; I had Coronavirus in November!"

and so on.  Just wait, I guarantee you this will be picked up by them and used to sing their BS.

[paulca]

You asked about airlines.

Here is the Monday morning Belfast to Heathrow service.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52539141

Plane 95% full.