Author Topic: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?  (Read 11093 times)

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Offline ConnecteurTopic starter

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Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« on: June 12, 2024, 01:29:36 pm »
Edison lost the war of the currents to Westinghouse and Tesla because his DC current couldn't be transformed to the higher voltages required for long range transmission. Alternating current, however is more difficult to use, once it gets to it's destination. A single-phase AC motor was a difficult engineering problem, and to this day is less efficient than either DC or 3-phase AC.

But DC power can now be transformed to higher or lower voltages without transformers. Solid state converters have become ubiquitous and relatively cheap. For example, fast-charging in your smartphone is accomplished by raising the voltage in the cable, allowing more power to be transferred without exceeding the current capacity of those small wires. Once the power is in your phone, the voltage is reduced to a level compatible with the battery and the phone.

About a mile from here there is a DC transmission line, running at 500,000 volts. The higher the voltage, the lower the amperage, which reduces power loss through heat. This used to be accomplished by using transformers which required AC, and significant power losses were always a factor. Now with high voltage DC, this is much less of a problem. Not only is only 1 conductor required instead of 3, it's also easier to convert power than with the old, bulky and inefficient transformers.

So why do we need AC in our homes? We don't. A house could be supplied with DC power from the mains, and converted to any type of power we could require. Imagine a future where DC power receptacles are installed in a house, at a safe voltage, where electrocution is impossible, and converters simply transform the safe current into anything that is required. Synchronization between solar power and grid power will be much simpler than it is now. It takes some sophisticated equipment to synchronize AC circuits together. With DC, it's a much simpler matter.

I likely won't live to see it, but I foresee a world of ubiquitous, safe, DC power in the future.
 

Online shapirus

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2024, 01:34:29 pm »
inefficient transformers.
This one has to be proved.

From what I was able to find by doing a brief search, typical efficiency of an AC transformer is well over 95%. This is a level that few DC-DC converters can reach, and only when the load matches the operating conditions they were optimized for.

Feasibility of high-voltage switch mode DC-DC converters is another intersting topic. You mentioned a 500 kV DC line, which implies that it should be possible, yet it sounds like a much more challenging task than a good old buzzing bulky AC transformer.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 01:37:29 pm by shapirus »
 

Offline ConnecteurTopic starter

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2024, 01:41:14 pm »
inefficient transformers.
This one has to be proved.

From what I was able to find by doing a brief search, typical efficiency of an AC transformer is well over 95%. This is a level that few DC-DC converters can reach, and only when the load matches the operating conditions they were optimized for.

Feasibility of high-voltage switch mode DC-DC converters is another intersting topic. You mentioned a 500 kV DC line, which implies that it should be possible, yet it sounds like a much more challenging task than a good old buzzing bulky AC transformer.

I tend to think that if transformers were more efficient than DC converters, the power companies wouldn't be building so many DC transmission lines.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2024, 02:00:20 pm »
No, the reason is the transmission line. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Losses.
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2024, 02:06:31 pm »
Nobody mentioned billions of existing electrical devices that cannot function without AC current....
 
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Offline ConnecteurTopic starter

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2024, 02:13:00 pm »
Nobody mentioned billions of existing electrical devices that cannot function without AC current....
AC inverters exist.  Why do we need AC power distribution?
Most universal motors run on AC or DC anyhow.
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2024, 02:15:19 pm »
inefficient transformers.
This one has to be proved.

From what I was able to find by doing a brief search, typical efficiency of an AC transformer is well over 95%. This is a level that few DC-DC converters can reach, and only when the load matches the operating conditions they were optimized for.

Feasibility of high-voltage switch mode DC-DC converters is another intersting topic. You mentioned a 500 kV DC line, which implies that it should be possible, yet it sounds like a much more challenging task than a good old buzzing bulky AC transformer.

I tend to think that if transformers were more efficient than DC converters, the power companies wouldn't be building so many DC transmission lines.

There are considerably more sources of loss than just transformers.  The primary benefit of HVDC is in the transmission e.g. no capacitive loss, no skin effect, no need for three phases, no reactive power issues, lower peak voltages meaning smaller/cheaper insulators etc.  You can have more losses in the conversion stages and still end up with better efficiency over long distances.
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2024, 02:18:38 pm »
DC links still require transformers!

 The utility T&D (transmission and distribution) transformers are optimized for lowest core and copper losses, and can acheve very high effieiency and low losses at mains frequency 50/60 Hz.

All utility generators are AC, three phase (~ 10..24 kV) and HV disty is easy with step-up  and step-down transformers eg (USA) 345, 240, 115, Kv.

DC-DC links are using transformers as well with cycloconverters

The EHV DC lines are 345...500 kV or higher for long haul links and especially underwater links.

Attached nameplate of typical 3 ph trsf and HVDC trasf by Siemens.

Enjoy!

Jon
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 02:33:41 pm by jonpaul »
Jean-Paul  the Internet Dinosaur
 
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Offline ConnecteurTopic starter

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2024, 02:22:07 pm »
inefficient transformers.
This one has to be proved.

From what I was able to find by doing a brief search, typical efficiency of an AC transformer is well over 95%. This is a level that few DC-DC converters can reach, and only when the load matches the operating conditions they were optimized for.

Feasibility of high-voltage switch mode DC-DC converters is another intersting topic. You mentioned a 500 kV DC line, which implies that it should be possible, yet it sounds like a much more challenging task than a good old buzzing bulky AC transformer.

I tend to think that if transformers were more efficient than DC converters, the power companies wouldn't be building so many DC transmission lines.

There are considerably more sources of loss than just transformers.  The primary benefit of HVDC is in the transmission e.g. no capacitive loss, no skin effect, no need for three phases, no reactive power issues, lower peak voltages meaning smaller/cheaper insulators etc.  You can have more losses in the conversion stages and still end up with better efficiency over long distances.
Seems to me, all the more reason to abandon AC distribution all the way down the line.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2024, 02:29:31 pm »
So why do we need AC in our homes? We don't. A house could be supplied with DC power from the mains, and converted to any type of power we could require. Imagine a future where DC power receptacles are installed in a house, at a safe voltage, where electrocution is impossible, and converters simply transform the safe current into anything that is required. Synchronization between solar power and grid power will be much simpler than it is now. It takes some sophisticated equipment to synchronize AC circuits together. With DC, it's a much simpler matter.

This is obviously impractical and will never happen.

You would have DC power supplied to a home at a voltage like 240 V (necessary for efficient power delivery), and then every outlet in the home would have a DC/DC converter stepping it down to something like 24 V DC. (There are over 100 outlets in my house, so that would be dozens of DC/DC converters required.) And on the supply side, every distribution transformer would have to be replaced by a DC/DC converter to change ~10 kV to ~240 V. This would change a simple, robust, transformer with a complex, failure-prone electronic converter at millions and millions of locations around the country. No way is this sensible.

That is not to mention appliances that consume 1.5 to 3 kW that are common. At 24 V that would require up to 125 A in the appliance cord. It's never going to happen.
 
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Offline Xena E

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2024, 02:31:45 pm »
This hairy old chestnut.

DC power over very long distances is practical and efficient,  but not for final distribution.

The thing is that there are those who have little understanding of the technicalities and safety aspects in letting Joe public near high energy DC.

It's even a Hobby horse with the green brigade and is touted as an ecological goal to put every household on DC, increasing the capacity of the supply grid.

They cite the need to increase capacity for EV charging.

When the day comes who's going to explain the waste and cost to end users as a good thing when all their electrical equipment is sent to landfill.

The equipment needed to convert AC line power in your home for small appliances is no more complex than would be needed to do it with DC.

Safety: to say that DC is safer than AC is completely fallacious, someone experiencing a DC shock is less likely to be able to break away from it, and if an arc is initiated with DC it is much harder to extinguish particularly at lower voltages.

The problem comes when politicos get hold of these ideas, convince themselves they are experts and start preaching the garbage to the public.

Nobody mentioned billions of existing electrical devices that cannot function without AC current....
AC inverters exist.  Why do we need AC power distribution?
Most universal motors run on AC or DC anyhow.

OK, you have an auto washing machine, it's possibly got a brushed universal motor in it, check. The heater is just resistive, check. So you're good to go, go on plug it into your DC mains, I dare you...

Maybe the thyristor or triac based controller won't blow up and set fire to your home, but I'll guarantee it won't work.
inefficient transformers.
This one has to be proved.

From what I was able to find by doing a brief search, typical efficiency of an AC transformer is well over 95%. This is a level that few DC-DC converters can reach, and only when the load matches the operating conditions they were optimized for.

Feasibility of high-voltage switch mode DC-DC converters is another intersting topic. You mentioned a 500 kV DC line, which implies that it should be possible, yet it sounds like a much more challenging task than a good old buzzing bulky AC transformer.

I tend to think that if transformers were more efficient than DC converters, the power companies wouldn't be building so many DC transmission lines.

That's bulk point to point transmission. If you have your big city 500 clicks from the hydro power that you need to get there then yes that's the application to use it for.

With respect to the OP, they may have been a star on the debating team, but they sure don't know shit about this subject.
 
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Offline ConnecteurTopic starter

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2024, 02:53:56 pm »
This hairy old chestnut.

DC power over very long distances is practical and efficient,  but not for final distribution.

The thing is that there are those who have little understanding of the technicalities and safety aspects in letting Joe public near high energy DC.
Why would it need to be high voltage? Joe Public won't get electrocuted from 30 volts. That's what I meant by safety, if you had read my post.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2024, 02:57:16 pm »
This hairy old chestnut.

DC power over very long distances is practical and efficient,  but not for final distribution.

The thing is that there are those who have little understanding of the technicalities and safety aspects in letting Joe public near high energy DC.
Why would it need to be high voltage? Joe Public won't get electrocuted from 30 volts. That's what I meant by safety, if you had read my post.

By now I think you are trolling...
Over and out..
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2024, 03:13:25 pm »
This hairy old chestnut.

DC power over very long distances is practical and efficient,  but not for final distribution.

The thing is that there are those who have little understanding of the technicalities and safety aspects in letting Joe public near high energy DC.
Why would it need to be high voltage? Joe Public won't get electrocuted from 30 volts. That's what I meant by safety, if you had read my post.

Don't you even know the formula for electrical power?
Lower voltage = higher current.

Danger:
Your 30 Volts running a 3kW appliance is drawing 100 Amps

Do you even know how big a cable would have to be to safely supply that? Can you conceive the losses?

Do you think dropping a spanner across the terminals of a car starter battery is a good idea?

You are a fucking troll.
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2024, 04:40:37 pm »
The OP is returning to old territory, where his pointless rant about UK plugs rapidly turned into pointless argument about 30V DC distribution in the home. It didn't end productively last time, I can't see him understanding any better this time...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/grumpy-rant-783/msg5102037/#msg5102037
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2024, 05:19:54 pm »
The idea has some merit, but not on a distribution scale. A typical household has a huge amount of adapters lying around. It could be beneficial to lump these together to get higher efficiency. With usb-pd there is a standard which supports a universal plug / socket to deliver all kinds of voltages. You van already buy dc outlets with a usb socket.

One example is my utility closet. Over the years it has collected quite a few outlets with adapters. About 6 right now. I already bought a multi-output 5V usb-A adapter to replace a few.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2024, 06:17:43 pm »
I run a similar setup for my home datacenter, i.e. a central 12V DC PSU (good quality, high efficiency) to power all small devices. Many need 12V anyway, and for the others I have additional DC/DC converters. This setup nearly halved the power draw in comparison to the wallwarts which came with the devices.

Local DC distributions can be found in a telco's central office or a datacenter (-48V DC). Some datacenters have a HV DC distribution to power servers and other devices. The goal is to be a bit more efficient.
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2024, 06:22:44 pm »
I'm with nctnico here. The benefit lies in replacing small SMPS with one slightly larger, and doing a small grid, perhaps meters in diameter, for these. I'm slowly building a 24V battery-backed system like this, called Main Bus B, which will be used to power things like broadband media converter, SIP ATA box, some relay-based automation (having bought a bucket of STC signals relays might influence this), emergency lighting and such.  This complements Main Bus A which is a 48V battery driving my computer room UPS.

In no way can these small-consumer systems replace the sheer force of 3-phase 400V, which is what powers the rest of the house, the geothermal pump, my workshop machines et c.

30V for anything above 150W is plain silly. Full stop.

Offline IanB

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2024, 06:31:17 pm »
It would help if there was some kind of standard for low voltage DC power connectors.

Barrel plugs and jacks are common, but there seems to be no commonly accepted standard for inner and outer diameters, color coding or polarity for different voltages.

It would be nice if there was some standard that said "this is always 5 V" and "this is always 12 V", and there was no possibility of accidently plugging a 5 V plug into a 12 V jack, or of plugging a center-positive device into a center-negative jack.

Given the current state of what's already out there, this may be a forlorn hope?
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2024, 06:38:58 pm »
The OP is returning to old territory, where his pointless rant about UK plugs rapidly turned into pointless argument about 30V DC distribution in the home. It didn't end productively last time, I can't see him understanding any better this time...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/grumpy-rant-783/msg5102037/#msg5102037

I had missed that one, it seems I'm correct in my assessment.

 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2024, 06:41:39 pm »
It would help if there was some kind of standard for low voltage DC power connectors.

That's a very honourable idea, but trying to implement it will just create another connector, not replace any.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2024, 07:30:02 pm »
Well, I will say this: we have the technology to do it, today.

We won't do it, probably in the next half-century, and maybe not ever, because of extenuating factors:

1. Mains distribution must be robust.  It is exposed to direct lightning strike, nearby (induced) strike, arcing due to crossed wires, tree falls, switching (especially inductive) loads, etc.

2. It must be able to source massive currents, to start rotating machinery, clear fuses, etc.  High surge capacity is, in one respect, a passive safety feature.

3. There is another passive safety afforded by AC: arcs are somewhat self-extinguishing.  DC arcs are notoriously hard to put out.  This reason, alone, may well be sufficient to never adopt a DC distribution system!

AC ground currents also don't cause corrosion -- indeed, it's not even a rare occurrence, as I understand it, for an underground substation (vault) to flood with water -- at least as long as it's not sea water I suppose (but maybe even then!), these can just keep on operating, at higher power loss perhaps, but corrosion is negligible, and not much special material or coating is required of the conductors and switches in these installations.

4. I don't have any idea if the semiconductor cost will come down in the future, or how it can come down in some best-case scenario, and if so by how much -- but at least given current top materials (SiC and GaN), replacing a simple wall switch takes about as much semiconductor solid, plus packaging, to handle the same ratings as a mechanical switch.  Similar proportions apply to everything else handling power: relays, breakers, transformers (--> converters), tap switchers (would be obviated by converters, at least), etc.

I suppose I could imagine some solution-based or even biologically mediated route to synthesize SiC crystals in high yield and low defect rate; GaN maaaaybe, but it would take some serious work as neither element is very amenable to anything other than CVD, I think.  The goal along these lines would be, maybe they're even terribly slow to grow, but the defect rate and purity are acceptable or even improved, and the energy input is tiny so that they can just be left in a warehouse to grow for months or years even, without the expensive high temperature, high pressure synthesis methods that are required today, so they can end up not only cheaper, but economical to use almost in bulk.

Notably, SiC PVD/sublimation is prone to especially high defect rate (screw dislocations); it's not at all a simple process, and the high temperatures are very energy-intensive to maintain.  So if there is a cost-reduction possibility, I can imagine it would be something in the synthesis and processing.  But it is something they have managed quite well nowadays, and along with annealing and epitaxy steps, excellent quality substrates are available today; if just pricey.

The chips used in a MOSFET of given rating, are much smaller than Si, so despite the high cost, and give or take the performance advantage, they are economical as replacements for Si MOSFETs.  But like I said, you need, just, so many of them to replace something mechanical like a switch, or transformer.

You could synthesize many of the passive safety and practical aspects that AC provides -- but you will do so at great expense and complexity, and the fact that it's a basic mechanically-switched system carrying power around, is a huge asset to the system as a whole, even if you have some annoyances like transformers and PFC correction capacitors (and line reactors, and dealing with harmonics, and..).

And yeah, transformers are generally very efficient; very large (100s MVA) transformers are typically in the 99.something % range.  They're huge, the volume/surface area ratio is pulling hard here, so they do need cooling oil to circulate, not to mention to insulate the high voltages, but yeah, they're really great components as things go.

One could also answer your question in the affirmative: we DO have DC grids, silly! -- we just use them where they are most suitable: HVDC links, where the exceptionally low transmission loss at nearly 1MV (a few over 1MV even, IIRC) is worth the cost (double meaning, both capital cost and electrical loss) of the converters at the end points.  Being a transmission rather than distribution system, no switching or branching is required, and it can be elevated high above ground to keep the electric field modest.

I suppose corrosion might still be a problem (rain soaked insulators?), but they could add inert electrodes to the support insulators at not too much cost.  That is, inert as in platinum or what have you -- electrolytically inert materials are not generally cheap -- but as the overall system is expensive, and relatively few insulators are needed for a wide-span transmission line, it could easily be afforded.

Tim
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Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2024, 07:42:56 pm »
Solar panel installs are DC and a notorious fire starter when there is even the slightest bad contact.
And the switchgear gets problematic fast.

 
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Online coppercone2

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2024, 07:52:54 pm »
yeah i want 30 volt bus bar behind my dryer machine
 
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Online tooki

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Re: Will AC power distribution become obsolete?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2024, 08:08:46 pm »
It would help if there was some kind of standard for low voltage DC power connectors.

Barrel plugs and jacks are common, but there seems to be no commonly accepted standard for inner and outer diameters, color coding or polarity for different voltages.

It would be nice if there was some standard that said "this is always 5 V" and "this is always 12 V", and there was no possibility of accidently plugging a 5 V plug into a 12 V jack, or of plugging a center-positive device into a center-negative jack.

Given the current state of what's already out there, this may be a forlorn hope?
This has existed for years, introduced by the Japanese electronics industry as the EIAJ connector series of DC barrel jacks. You’ve likely used them and never realized the dimensions code the voltage.
 


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