Author Topic: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?  (Read 23095 times)

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Online gamalot

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2023, 06:04:18 am »
Simplified reduced the character set so much the overlaps are much greater.

My understanding is that most of those cases involved merging of two characters where one of the two merged characters stayed the same, e.g. 雲 and 云 both becoming 云.  Situations where two different characters were merged into a single, different character (like 發 and 髮 both becoming 发) are significantly less common.

蓝 and 兰 do share a radical in traditional characters (艹 in both 藍 and 蘭) but I get the feeling (not being a Chinese native speaker :)) that 兰 is being used simply because it's a lot easier to write and has the same reading.
If you look at the pre-Unicode character sets, the most popular were Big5 for traditional Chinese, and the CNS standard for simplified Chinese. Depending on the variant, Big 5 is about 13000 to 14000 characters. CNS is about 6000 characters, They cover similar needs. That's how much the character set shrunk. Traditionally 云 was just shorthand for 雲, both meaning the same thing - a cloud. Many of the simplifications in simpliifed Chinese were just codifying the simplified way people were already writing those characters in informal writing.

云 and 雲 have different meanings in traditional Chinese, 云 means "say", 雲 means "cloud"

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2023, 05:07:41 pm »
Maybe a native / fluent speaker of Chinese could comment on the following. I am not familiar with writing Chinese, only Japanese.
Writing Japanese on a computer involves entering words or phrases in phonetic form. A conversion tool (e.g. Input Method Editor) will then suggest kanji/kana combinations for the input.
Due to the huge amount of homonyms (which may be largely due to the historic mapping of the Chinese tonal system to the Japanese vowels), this may result in lots of potential valid kanji/kana. Same as in simplified Chinese, writing reforms obscure the etymological background of many kanji.
I'd expect oddities in Chinese technical documents could be traced to several sources, including:
- plain typo
- typo due to homonyms (pinyin input)
- translation error


Input methods:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_input_methods_for_computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin_input_method
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangjie_input_method

Edit: clarification / typo
 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2023, 11:56:27 am by harerod »
 

Online gamalot

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2023, 05:59:39 am »
Maybe a native / fluent speaker of Chinese could comment on the following. I am not familiar with writing Chinese, only Japanese.
Writing Japanese involves entering words or phrases in phonetic form. A conversion tool (e.g. Input Method Editor) will then suggest kanji/kana combinations for the input.
Due to the huge amount of homonyms (which may be largely due to the historic mapping of the Chinese tonal system to the Japanese vowels), this may result in lots of potential valid kanji/kana. Same as in simplified Chinese, writing reforms obscure the etymological background of many kanji.
I'd expect oddities in Chinese technical document could be traced to several sources, including:
- plain typo
- typo due to homonyms (pinyin input)
- translation error


Input methods:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_input_methods_for_computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin_input_method
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangjie_input_method

The most common is translation errors, and it is difficult to find electronic engineers with good English to do document translation.

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2023, 06:09:23 am »
Here's one I remember from a few years back:
Humorous Frequency  :-//

Anyone jump straight on that one ?
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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2023, 11:08:46 am »
Here's one I remember from a few years back:
Humorous Frequency  :-//

Anyone jump straight on that one ?

harmonic frequency 谐波频率

谐 means humorous or harmonious

---

Now you know the answer, could you pls tell me what the meaning of 'jump straight on' in return?  :-DD
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 11:51:36 am by gamalot »
 

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2023, 11:45:39 am »
The most common is translation errors, and it is difficult to find electronic engineers with good English to do document translation.

When I was working on my engineering degree I supported myself in part by working as a translator, and the cardinal rule of translation was always:  translate into (not from) your native language.  The vast majority (like, 95%) of translation issues are caused by people who are translating into their non-native language.  A Chinese -> English translation would always (ideally) be done by a native English speaker.

That said, I am very aware that there are very few English native speakers who can read Chinese (or most other languages, for that matter) and those that can will quickly find themselves being vastly undercut in price (by up to a order of magnitude) by non-natives who live in lower-cost countries.  Having a native speaker edit / proofread a translation by a non-native is also very much hit or miss:  there's only so such "editing / proofing" you can do before it turns into a re-translation job.

"Important" translation jobs, like books, are (I hope) still usually handled by a native speaker, but "good enough" translations into English now seem to be almost universally done by non-natives or (shudder) Google translate.

I haven't translated professionally in a long time, but I imagine that these days someone living in the States could make a lot more money per hour simply doing rideshare or food delivery compared to translating.

(The last book I translated:  https://www.si.edu/object/siris_sil_1089190)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 11:49:53 am by pdenisowski »
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Online harerod

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2023, 01:05:53 pm »
  ...the cardinal rule of translation was always:  translate into (not from) your native language.  The vast majority (like, 95%) of translation issues are caused by people who are translating into their non-native language.  A Chinese -> English translation would always (ideally) be done by a native English speaker....

I'd say that this should be a general rule. In my services I make the very careful distinction of offering translations of technical documents into Englisch. In contrast, I offer translations from several languages into into my native German. These translations usually happen during projects and are billed by my hourly rate, since I still apply my expertise as an engineer.
What are considered "normal rates" for professional translators are a shame. However, the results of "you get what you pay for" are quite often rather amusing. A couple of months ago a client of mine hired a professional translation service (located in Germany) for the translation of a manual from German to Spanish. The Spanish version had plenty of references to "el buceador" - "the (male) diver". This had its origin in the current local fad of "Gendern" (ger.) "männlich/weiblich/divers" -> (eng.) "male/female/diverse" and that service quite clearly using some electronic translation tool.

To put things into perspective: A recent quote for translation of patents (legal stuff, for the courts) from Japanese to German: 1..2€/55chars.

Edit: Typo c
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 09:33:37 am by harerod »
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2023, 01:19:46 pm »
Here's one I remember from a few years back:
Humorous Frequency  :-//

Anyone jump straight on that one ?

harmonic frequency 谐波频率

谐 means humorous or harmonious

---

Now you know the answer, could you pls tell me what the meaning of 'jump straight on' in return?  :-DD
:-DD
No, try again……a different translation. You jumped but not straight to the correct answer.  :)
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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2023, 01:30:12 pm »
Here's one I remember from a few years back:
Humorous Frequency  :-//

Anyone jump straight on that one ?

harmonic frequency 谐波频率

谐 means humorous or harmonious

---

Now you know the answer, could you pls tell me what the meaning of 'jump straight on' in return?  :-DD
:-DD
No, try again……a different translation. You jumped but not straight to the correct answer.  :)

OK! Here is another answer for free  |O

resonant frequency 谐振频率

Offline tautech

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2023, 01:33:38 pm »
Here's one I remember from a few years back:
Humorous Frequency  :-//

Anyone jump straight on that one ?

harmonic frequency 谐波频率

谐 means humorous or harmonious

---

Now you know the answer, could you pls tell me what the meaning of 'jump straight on' in return?  :-DD
:-DD
No, try again……a different translation. You jumped but not straight to the correct answer.  :)

OK! Here is another answer for free  |O

resonant frequency 谐振频率
:)
Sorry not that either.
Getting closer.
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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2023, 01:53:58 pm »
Here's one I remember from a few years back:
Humorous Frequency  :-//

Anyone jump straight on that one ?

harmonic frequency 谐波频率

谐 means humorous or harmonious

---

Now you know the answer, could you pls tell me what the meaning of 'jump straight on' in return?  :-DD
:-DD
No, try again……a different translation. You jumped but not straight to the correct answer.  :)

OK! Here is another answer for free  |O

resonant frequency 谐振频率
:)
Sorry not that either.
Getting closer.

Guessing without context is really hard, even for a native Chinese speaker, how about this

self-resonant frequency 自谐频率

or

tuning frequency 调谐频率
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 01:57:15 pm by gamalot »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2023, 02:03:32 pm »
Here's one I remember from a few years back:
Humorous Frequency  :-//

Anyone jump straight on that one ?

harmonic frequency 谐波频率

谐 means humorous or harmonious

---

Now you know the answer, could you pls tell me what the meaning of 'jump straight on' in return?  :-DD
:-DD
No, try again……a different translation. You jumped but not straight to the correct answer.  :)

OK! Here is another answer for free  |O

resonant frequency 谐振频率
:)
Sorry not that either.
Getting closer.

Guessing without context is really hard, even for a native Chinese speaker, how about this

tuning frequency 调谐频率
Sorry no again.

Context.
Earlier User manual for electronic equipment is best I can do for now as not being at workstation where I might still have copies of those old manuals.

When revealed you will chuckle as it baffled an EE friend for several days just how a simple translation could go so wrong.
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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2023, 02:06:06 pm »
These translations usually happen during projects and are billed by my hourly rate, since I still apply my expertise as an engineer.

Must be nice :)  I recall seeing medical translation jobs advertised with the requirement that the translator be an actual licensed physician (MD) -- I always wondered how many people who went to medical school and also learned a foreign language were willing to work for < 20 cents a word.


To put things into perspective: A recent quote for translation of patents (legal stuff, for the courts) from Japanese to German: 1..2€/55chars.

That's about what I was making for Japanese -> English engineering documents in the early 1990s.  At least I didn't have to compete with electronic translation tools, and outsourcing to foreign countries was difficult as well.
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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2023, 02:51:28 pm »

Sorry no again.

Context.
Earlier User manual for electronic equipment is best I can do for now as not being at workstation where I might still have copies of those old manuals.

When revealed you will chuckle as it baffled an EE friend for several days just how a simple translation could go so wrong.

I added another answer (SRF) while you were typing, it must be right!  :box:

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2023, 08:17:54 pm »

Sorry no again.

Context.
Earlier User manual for electronic equipment is best I can do for now as not being at workstation where I might still have copies of those old manuals.

When revealed you will chuckle as it baffled an EE friend for several days just how a simple translation could go so wrong.

I added another answer (SRF) while you were typing, it must be right!  :box:
Your answers thus far for a Humorous Frequency translation:
harmonic frequency
resonant frequency
tuning frequency
self-resonant frequency

Sorry, are all wrong !
In terms of English understanding, #1 is the closest.

Did I say it baffled an EE for some days ?
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Offline tooki

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #90 on: January 07, 2023, 01:06:43 am »
The most common is translation errors, and it is difficult to find electronic engineers with good English to do document translation.

When I was working on my engineering degree I supported myself in part by working as a translator, and the cardinal rule of translation was always:  translate into (not from) your native language.  The vast majority (like, 95%) of translation issues are caused by people who are translating into their non-native language.  A Chinese -> English translation would always (ideally) be done by a native English speaker.
Absolutely. I worked as a technical translator for one big product (a decent size software package plus all the documentation -- user manual, help files, correspondence templates, website, etc.) from German to English. Since I also did support for the product, sometimes I'd have to write a brand new FAQ, for example, and I'd typically do it in English and then write a draft in German, but always gave it to a native speaker for proofreading. My German is good enough that it wouldn't have been bad, just not perfect.

Having a native speaker edit / proofread a translation by a non-native is also very much hit or miss:  there's only so such "editing / proofing" you can do before it turns into a re-translation job.
Yep. In fact, that's how I got the job doing the software translation: originally, a Swiss employee had done an initial translation to English, and of course the owners figured they just needed a native speaker to proofread it. But after discovering some translations that were so off that I couldn't figure out what they meant (or worse: ones that look right superficially, but are actually quite wrong!), it quickly became apparent that going back to the original German to verify the intent, and then comparing that to the "English" translation, was actually more time-consuming than simply starting over. So we trashed the nonnative translation and I did a whole new one. Along the way, it became a great UX review of the original German, since if a user interface is hard to describe, it may well be hard to use, too! And we found some interesting things, too, like: Was the original German menu item "Titel bearbeiten" singular or plural? For English, I had to know, since "Edit title" and "Edit titles" are not the same. But in German, since that particular word lacks a plural marker, they'd never thought about it! Sometimes, I'd reword things in English, and the boss liked it so much, he retranslated it back into German. (The company was run by academics at the time, and they were great at writing very verbose prose, but not the concise text needed for user interfaces. But they could translate concisely!)

I had to immerse myself in the language of library science to do that job, but the end result was quite good.

If anyone cares, that product is Citavi, a reference management program (like, to help you with a bibliography). Mind you, it's been 10 years since I left that company, so the product (and thus the language) has evolved since then. But I did take a look at the latest version recently (and, in fact, used it for real for the first time on a publication of my own!), and it looks like all the major terminology and wording is still mine. :P
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 01:08:48 am by tooki »
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #91 on: January 07, 2023, 01:16:38 am »
These translations usually happen during projects and are billed by my hourly rate, since I still apply my expertise as an engineer.

Must be nice :)  I recall seeing medical translation jobs advertised with the requirement that the translator be an actual licensed physician (MD) -- I always wondered how many people who went to medical school and also learned a foreign language were willing to work for < 20 cents a word.
Absolutely. People who need technical* translation work done often fail to recognize that a good technical translator not only needs to be a native speaker, but also a fundamentally good writer and a subject-matter expert. That combination doesn't come cheap, but it's necessary to achieve high quality.


*For those who don't know, in the writing/translation world, "technical writing" (and "technical translation") fundamentally just means the counterpart to "creative writing": reports, documentation, memos, etc. Many would even consider typical "business" writing (correspondence, etc) to fall within it as well. As such, I find it rather curious that in school, we place so much emphasis on literary and creative writing, and not nearly enough on technical writing, despite the fact that that's the kind of writing most people will actually do throughout their careers. (Some of the rules apply equally to both, but others are exact opposites. A great example is how in school, we're taught to use synonyms to avoid repeating the same words over and over. But in technical writing, you want to use words consistently for clarity.)
 
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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #92 on: January 07, 2023, 06:11:02 am »

Sorry no again.

Context.
Earlier User manual for electronic equipment is best I can do for now as not being at workstation where I might still have copies of those old manuals.

When revealed you will chuckle as it baffled an EE friend for several days just how a simple translation could go so wrong.

I added another answer (SRF) while you were typing, it must be right!  :box:
Your answers thus far for a Humorous Frequency translation:
harmonic frequency
resonant frequency
tuning frequency
self-resonant frequency

Sorry, are all wrong !
In terms of English understanding, #1 is the closest.

Did I say it baffled an EE for some days ?

My last try:

Humorous Frequency -> 幽默频率 -> 诙谐频率 -> Witty Frequency -> 机智频率 -> Smart Frequency -> Automatic Tuning   :palm:

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2023, 07:09:20 am »

Sorry no again.

Context.
Earlier User manual for electronic equipment is best I can do for now as not being at workstation where I might still have copies of those old manuals.

When revealed you will chuckle as it baffled an EE friend for several days just how a simple translation could go so wrong.

I added another answer (SRF) while you were typing, it must be right!  :box:
Your answers thus far for a Humorous Frequency translation:
harmonic frequency
resonant frequency
tuning frequency
self-resonant frequency

Sorry, are all wrong !
In terms of English understanding, #1 is the closest.

Did I say it baffled an EE for some days ?

My last try:

Humorous Frequency -> 幽默频率 -> 诙谐频率 -> Witty Frequency -> 机智频率 -> Smart Frequency -> Automatic Tuning   :palm:
:) Not yet.

Some context WRT FFT usage from a 10yr old manual:
The FFT process mathematically converts a time-domain signal into its
frequency components. You can use the Math FFT mode to view the following types
of signals:
● Analyze the Humorous wave in the Power cable.
● Test the Humorous content and distortion in the system

................
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 07:11:10 am by tautech »
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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2023, 07:47:55 am »

Some context WRT FFT usage from a 10yr old manual:
The FFT process mathematically converts a time-domain signal into its
frequency components. You can use the Math FFT mode to view the following types
of signals:
● Analyze the Humorous wave in the Power cable.
● Test the Humorous content and distortion in the system

................

This has nothing to do with Chinese, it's just a person who is not good at English mistakenly wrote harmonic as humorous.


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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2023, 07:56:36 am »

Some context WRT FFT usage from a 10yr old manual:
The FFT process mathematically converts a time-domain signal into its
frequency components. You can use the Math FFT mode to view the following types
of signals:
● Analyze the Humorous wave in the Power cable.
● Test the Humorous content and distortion in the system

................

This has nothing to do with Chinese, it's just a person who is not good at English mistakenly wrote harmonic as humorous.
Substitute Fundamental for Humorous.  ;)
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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2023, 08:10:09 am »

Some context WRT FFT usage from a 10yr old manual:
The FFT process mathematically converts a time-domain signal into its
frequency components. You can use the Math FFT mode to view the following types
of signals:
● Analyze the Humorous wave in the Power cable.
● Test the Humorous content and distortion in the system

................

This has nothing to do with Chinese, it's just a person who is not good at English mistakenly wrote harmonic as humorous.
Substitute Fundamental for Humorous.  ;)

No, it doesn't make sense to me ...... unless someone mistranslated 'fundamental' into Chinese and then translated back into English

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2023, 08:43:14 am »

Some context WRT FFT usage from a 10yr old manual:
The FFT process mathematically converts a time-domain signal into its
frequency components. You can use the Math FFT mode to view the following types
of signals:
● Analyze the Humorous wave in the Power cable.
● Test the Humorous content and distortion in the system

................

This has nothing to do with Chinese, it's just a person who is not good at English mistakenly wrote harmonic as humorous.
Substitute Fundamental for Humorous.  ;)

No, it doesn't make sense to me ...... unless someone mistranslated 'fundamental' into Chinese and then translated back into English
Yes, I believe that is what happened.

Fun and Humor are near synonyms so English to Chinese back to English for Fundamental somehow came up with Humorous.

I have a few of these 10yr old manuals which in context you get the general idea what is meant however it is amusing.
Thanks for the Humorous good time !  :-DD
 
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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2023, 01:18:33 pm »
This has nothing to do with Chinese, it's just a person who is not good at English mistakenly wrote harmonic as humorous.

My thought was also maybe a typo (in the text or in the translator's glossary).  In the 1990s I once saw the English word "headlights" translated into German as "Schweinwerfer"   :-DD

Imagine my surprise / amusement when a did a quick search of Reverso just a moment ago:

https://context.reverso.net/translation/german-english/Schweinwerfer

This is different from things like "Videogashebel" which were clearly done by someone with no technical background. 

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Re: Where does all the weird Chinese component terminology come from?
« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2023, 06:53:16 pm »
Schwein werfer? Pig thrower?
 


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