Author Topic: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?  (Read 240311 times)

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Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #875 on: January 10, 2022, 12:18:40 pm »
The immediate pulse (first ~100ns) has the same "very slight lift" visible in AlphaPhoenix's result. Also the simulation replicates his lower than expected DC return (first ~100ns) to some extent. If you curve fit the blue line up a little higher, that effect is even stronger.
 

Offline SandyCox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #876 on: January 10, 2022, 12:28:00 pm »
Can you zoom in in the first ten nanoseconds, to see how well they match?
We can’t expect them to match. Transmission line theory cannot be used to model the initial 1m/c delay. I mentioned this in my previous posts.
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #877 on: January 10, 2022, 12:41:47 pm »
Can you zoom in in the first ten nanoseconds, to see how well they match?

SandyCox beat me to it, but there has to be a first time for everything*, ere tis: SMH.

* untrue, but less illogical than saying things like "I'm sure it's right, but...".
 

Offline SandyCox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #878 on: January 10, 2022, 12:56:18 pm »
If COMSOL change the resistance of the bulb to 718 Ohm then half the battery voltage will appear across the bulb after 3.3 ns.
 

Offline Sredni

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #879 on: January 10, 2022, 01:10:29 pm »
Can you zoom in in the first ten nanoseconds, to see how well they match?
We can’t expect them to match. Transmission line theory cannot be used to model the initial 1m/c delay. I mentioned this in my previous posts.

We both know they do not match. I just wanted to see if you can show just the first ten nanoseconds to see how much they do not match.
(This, as well has been debated in previous posts - but it would be nice to see it graphically)
All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #880 on: January 10, 2022, 01:30:28 pm »
If COMSOL change the resistance of the bulb to 718 Ohm then half the battery voltage will appear across the bulb after 3.3 ns.

I was loosely considering asking that (or that without knowing the match) on their blog, I'd be interested in the effect on radiation loss.

They also link an article on modelling skin effect, would be my next request. At some point they'd want me to buy a seat! That would have to be a very short conversation.

BTW I've been looking at OpenEMS and Meep as free modellers. They don't have the all the CAD niceness, but would suit something like this.
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #881 on: January 10, 2022, 01:34:56 pm »
Can you zoom in in the first ten nanoseconds, to see how well they match?
We can’t expect them to match. Transmission line theory cannot be used to model the initial 1m/c delay. I mentioned this in my previous posts.

We both know they do not match. I just wanted to see if you can show just the first ten nanoseconds to see how much they do not match.
(This, as well has been debated in previous posts - but it would be nice to see it graphically)

I wonder if the 1m/c is cumulative over every reflection. I suppose it has to be.
 

Offline SandyCox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #882 on: January 10, 2022, 01:59:52 pm »
Can you zoom in in the first ten nanoseconds, to see how well they match?
We can’t expect them to match. Transmission line theory cannot be used to model the initial 1m/c delay. I mentioned this in my previous posts.

We both know they do not match. I just wanted to see if you can show just the first ten nanoseconds to see how much they do not match.
(This, as well has been debated in previous posts - but it would be nice to see it graphically)

I wonder if the 1m/c is cumulative over every reflection. I suppose it has to be.
According to transmission line theory, the bulb current is constant between t=0ns and t=100ns. So, the COMSOL simulation is delayed by 3.3ns compared to transmission line theory. I attach the full explanation.

Edit: I updated the note which now includes a comparison over the first 500ns.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 03:07:34 pm by SandyCox »
 

Offline SandyCox

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #883 on: January 10, 2022, 03:14:20 pm »
If the bulb is properly matched to the line (R=2Zo), we will get 25% of full power in the bulb after 3.3 ns. I wonder how QED explains this. Is the probability time dependent?
 

Offline Sredni

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #884 on: January 10, 2022, 04:23:48 pm »
First 15 nanoseconds



First 5 nanoseconds, where the magic happens:



All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 

Offline rfeecs

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #885 on: January 10, 2022, 05:29:11 pm »
COMSOL jumps into the fray:

https://www.comsol.com/blogs/how-long-does-it-take-an-engineer-to-turn-on-a-light-bulb/?utm_content=bufferc79f7&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=LinkedIn&utm_campaign=comsol_social_pages

Simulation video included.

Interesting that the video shows the fields (and presumably the currents) are imbalanced between the top and bottom wires.  You have a physical transmission line being fed in an imbalanced way.  In a circuit simulator, you would have to model this as two coupled lines with even and odd mode impedances.  A single ideal transmission line would not model this effect.
 

Offline rfeecs

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #886 on: January 10, 2022, 05:48:02 pm »
It's not "at odds" with it.  All QFT predicts is that while energy can flow via the path Pyonting predicts it can also flow via an Infinite number of other paths.  Incuding paths via the wire.  When one carries out the computation, taking account the presence of existence of the wire as a path of charges which are very close toegher for the battery to interact with, the path of highest probability is along the wire.  The path suggested by Pyonting also exist but the probability of conduction via that path is low. 

The classical theory is not "wrong" it is just too limited for this situation.  The very size of it makes the speed of light relevant and so relativity has to be accounted for.


I don't understand this argument.  The classical theory (Maxwell's equations) is compatible with special relativity.  We use it all the time to deal with problems where waves move at the speed of light.  Also, we have only one reference frame here.  Relativity doesn't come into it.

Of course if you want to account for gravity considering we are going half way to the moon and back, then general relativity may come in.  But I gather that is not compatible with QFT?

Supposedly QFT should give basically (with a probability of 99.99...%?)  the same answer as classical theory so I'm not seeing the point, I guess.
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #887 on: January 11, 2022, 04:02:52 am »
According to transmission line theory, the bulb current is constant between t=0ns and t=100ns. So, the COMSOL simulation is delayed by 3.3ns compared to transmission line theory. I attach the full explanation.

Edit: I updated the note which now includes a comparison over the first 500ns.

Ah your note takes me back - is the sort of thing I have not done since uni (decades). Nothing personal against Laplace, but I found the transforms and representation extremely cumbersome - unbelievably so, I went to university believing I knew a fair bit about electronics as a hobby and knowing things like Ohm's law, so this was surprising at the time. It would have been extremely useful in the 1700s - 1800s. Z transform made a little more practical sense to me, closer to actual numbers. Oh - looking at Wikipedia, it was originally (due to Laplace) the discrete Z-transform. All this stuff I didn't know.

It might still be good to see it shifted 3.33ns (just an idea, not really necessary).
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #888 on: January 11, 2022, 06:46:28 am »
If the bulb is properly matched to the line (R=2Zo), we will get 25% of full power in the bulb after 3.3 ns. I wonder how QED explains this. Is the probability time dependent?

As far as I remember, it is pretty much the same as classical. Time and space are treated essentially the same, so the probabilities of something moving to new coordinates in x, y, z as well as t, is part of the equation. But relativistic EM is more general than classical EM, the latter relies on magnetic field to describe most but not all of the possible relativistic effects. If the charges are moving at relativistic speeds, then classical EM does not work? "I don't really know" is a good caveat here.
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #889 on: January 11, 2022, 02:07:41 pm »
It's not "at odds" with it.  All QFT predicts is that while energy can flow via the path Pyonting predicts it can also flow via an Infinite number of other paths.  Incuding paths via the wire.  When one carries out the computation, taking account the presence of existence of the wire as a path of charges which are very close toegher for the battery to interact with, the path of highest probability is along the wire.  The path suggested by Pyonting also exist but the probability of conduction via that path is low. 

The classical theory is not "wrong" it is just too limited for this situation.  The very size of it makes the speed of light relevant and so relativity has to be accounted for.


I don't understand this argument.  The classical theory (Maxwell's equations) is compatible with special relativity.  We use it all the time to deal with problems where waves move at the speed of light.  Also, we have only one reference frame here.  Relativity doesn't come into it.

Of course if you want to account for gravity considering we are going half way to the moon and back, then general relativity may come in.  But I gather that is not compatible with QFT?

Supposedly QFT should give basically (with a probability of 99.99...%?)  the same answer as classical theory so I'm not seeing the point, I guess.

At the risk of (continuing?) to talk through a hole in my hat or whatever that idiom is...

I see it as the same, but different semantics and perhaps historical direction.

In classical land... Voltage stands in for energy, being potential energy. An electron 'has' energy by virtue of the physical pressure it is under (how close it is to other electrons). As it moves around the circuit it gains or loses this energy. If you believe the electron carries the energy, then the argument is done. But if you believe the energy is coming from the force being conducted through the collection of electrons, it is the closest ones in the wire directly next to it that feel this force the strongest.

However if you look at a 'unit area' of wire pair crossing space, the connections are where energy is injected and removed from. A small source of energy would have to cross space to get to these, implying that it is impossible to get energy to flow from one place to another wihout going to the extents of this system. That could mean "the wires", or the field/s. It should work just as well at DC without a magnetic field, unavoidable, but it chucks a bit of a bucket of cold water over the Poynting energy flux idea (except for the fact it works and no one seems to know why).

Probability is an interesting concept. It allows the system to be run entirely in parallel, without knowledge of the state (or indeed existence) of its other parts, while coming up with the same result.
 

Offline rfeecs

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #890 on: January 11, 2022, 07:30:52 pm »
Yet another simulation video:

This one using a homebrew FDTD simulation with MATLAB.  :clap:
 
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Offline daqq

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #891 on: January 11, 2022, 08:03:54 pm »
If anyone wants to play around with FDTD simulators without going to the bank, see openEMS. Effectively non-existent user interface, but works, I simulated some really nasty stuff with it.

https://openems.de/start/
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Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #892 on: January 12, 2022, 03:39:07 am »
This one using a homebrew FDTD simulation with MATLAB.  :clap:

I didn't know FDTD was in Wikipedia, probably searched and just missed it. I'm fond of lashing up simulators using Yee lattice-like constructs (naively - just from my head, and see how it works) so was thinking about it. I wanted to probe and plot the same things, Silicon Soup has done a very good job, and properly-er than I ever would.

I can now confidently say I was wrong to think only 1/4 of the voltage across each transmission line is lost to radiation or whatever I said (based on a 'heuristic' guess that the un-driven wire in each leg is gently loaded while the driven ends are driven hard, such that what would be 1/2 loss guestimatically reduces to 1/4). Silicon Soup simulates the impedance match case, and shows the 1/c current is definitely way smaller than expected from transmission line theory, confirming COMSOL, AlphaPhoenix's and Ben Watson's videos.

And something else, I'll have to watch the video properly.
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #893 on: January 12, 2022, 02:04:59 pm »
According to transmission line theory, the bulb current is constant between t=0ns and t=100ns. So, the COMSOL simulation is delayed by 3.3ns compared to transmission line theory. I attach the full explanation.

Edit: I updated the note which now includes a comparison over the first 500ns.

Ah your note takes me back - is the sort of thing I have not done since uni (decades). Nothing personal against Laplace, but I found the transforms and representation extremely cumbersome - unbelievably so, I went to university believing I knew a fair bit about electronics as a hobby and knowing things like Ohm's law, so this was surprising at the time. It would have been extremely useful in the 1700s - 1800s. Z transform made a little more practical sense to me, closer to actual numbers. Oh - looking at Wikipedia, it was originally (due to Laplace) the discrete Z-transform. All this stuff I didn't know.

It might still be good to see it shifted 3.33ns (just an idea, not really necessary).

Reading this back, rather than silly it sounds like I'm being an arse - the latter not my intention. It's just that Laplace transforms were not for me, but I liked and understood it for possibly the first time in my life.

In fact I've learned more about the fundamental nature of electricity from this thread (and a few YT comments before I got here) than years of schooling and university. I don't think it's necessarily because of bad education (at either end), but that this puzzle has been a genuine challenge which lit up the world, inspiring people to tackle it in a variety of ways with some novel thinking and actions and questioning - in that sense this so-called thought experiment might just be more realistic than so much of going through the motions that technology has become.

To that end, there's still a thing that I don't understand. Without intending to cause a flood of exertion, new post:
 

Offline adx

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #894 on: January 12, 2022, 02:07:48 pm »
Is surface charge real?
 

Offline Sredni

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All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 

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Offline rfeecs

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #897 on: January 12, 2022, 08:08:37 pm »
Another cool simulation video.  Shows that energy outside the wires flows along parallel to the wire direction from source to load.  Ohmic losses flow in towards the center of the wire.  This one simulates at low frequency, close to DC.
 
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Offline Sredni

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #898 on: January 12, 2022, 09:09:47 pm »
I had this answer written and put on hold while I was looking for a quote in a reference, and then I forgot to post it. Might as well do it now, even if I don't find who I was responding to. I guess this is the internet equivalent of being in a room and asking oneself: "what am I doing here?" But it was about how to add and remove energy from the field without radiation.


Ok, 'quasi-statics' is a misleading term, in this context. In my language constant current flow system are classified as steady-state electrodynamics. They are not electrostatics, they are not magnetostatics. In these system we neglect the energy we put both into the magnetic field around the current, and into the electric field between conductors.

I'll get back to the battery-wires-resistor circuit later, but for now, let's consider the system where a charge is forced to move at constant velocity towards a part of the circuit that is charged with the same sign. We can even simplify this example further by considering just two same sign charges. When I push one against the other I need to do work. The energy I lost is put into the system (I would say 'in the field'). This is an electrostatic system when we start, and is an electrostatic system when we finish. If we are careful and do not accelerate the charge much (I was thinking of a very slow transformation, what in thermodynamic is termed 'reversible', see note 1) we lose almost nothing to radiation. And yet energy is put into the system even when the charge is moving at a steady constant velocity v.
Where is the changing field in this picture? The electric field of the whole system is a function of the position of both charges. So, even when velocity is constant in magnitude and direction, the field changes. This is where we can see the Poynting vector appear: the moving charge is basically a current, a magnetic field ensues, and time after time the product E x H is nonzero and shows energy flowing into the field.
When I stop the charge (again, making sure not to radiate any appreciable amount of energy) I end up with a static system whose energy has increased.

If I wiggle the charge very slowly, so that I do not experience any appreciable acceleration, I can add and subtract energy to the system in an almost ("quasi") reversible way - see note 1. So, where does energy flow in this case? I would say it flows into the field, in the space between (and around) the charges.


Let's get back to the resistor circuit, again with the charge in the space between wires. Let's say the top of the resistor is positively charged (I'm talking about surface/interface charges, the same charges responsible for the strong electric field inside the resistor's body). If I try to push my positive charge against the top of the resistor, I have to do work. The field of the system circuit+charge will increase at my expenses. Where did the energy go? Into the field: the physical system in this new configuration has acquired the capacity to do more work. If I attach my charge to a little spring, it will be repelled by the top of the resistor. The spring will compress and mechanical energy will be put into the mechanical system. Where did that energy come from? I say it comes from the EM field. My tiny charge was in the space between wires, and has received energy while it was in the space between wires. Did this energy flow out of the wires? Or is it just the result of the interaction with the field - generated by surface charge - that already was outside the wires?

Regarding the resistor itself, here we reach the limits of classical electrodynamics since Ohm's law cannot be quantitatively explained classically. In any case, if we choose to go along with the classical model of resistivity, the constant velocity of the charges inside the conductor is the result of an equilibrium between acceleration and deceleration due to the constant electric field in the material and the collisions with lattice atoms. Constant velocity is a macro-generalization.
The simple battery-wires-resistor circuit is much more complicated that it appears at first sight, and in my opinion the model where a uniform and constant current density is the result of a magically established electric field E=j/sigma inside the good and bad conducting parts of the circuit is a gross oversimplification. It makes people think that the electric field is only inside the material. It does not take into account at all the role of surface charge: the surface charge that is responsible for the electric field around the battery, the wires, the resistor. The surface charge that shapes the EM field in the space inside AND outside the circuit itself. The surface charge that is responsible for the energy in the EM field in the whole of space.

If I have to choose between a description (phi J) that only works in the material (where the E field is constant and directed along the conductor just 'because' it has to follow Ohm's law) and a description (E x H) that works in the material and in the space around it (explaining how the surface and interface charge interact to produce that curiously shaped E field inside the conductor), I choose the latter. YMMV.


I add here an extract from

    Edward G. Jordan, Keith J. Balmain
    Electromagnetic Waves and Radiating Systems
2e
    1968, Prentice Hall

(which I should have edited in in the philosophical appendix of my previous post)

p. 169: 6.02 A note on the interpretation of ExH
Quote
"Most engineers find acceptable the concept of energy transmission through space, either with or without guiding conductors, when wave motion is present. However, for many engineers this picture becomes disturbing for transmission line propagation in the DC case.
When E and H are static fields produced by unrelated sources, the picture becomes even less credible. The classic illustration of a bar magnet on which is placed an electric charge is one which is often cited. In this example a static electric field is crossed with a steady magnetic field and a strict interpretation of Poynting's theorem seems to require a continuous circulation of energy around the magnet. This is a picture that the engineer generally is not willing to accept (although he usually does not question the theory of permanent magnetism which requires a continuous circulation of electric currents within the magnet).
"

Incidentally, this example is also discussed in Pollack and Stump's "Electromagnetism", on p. 421. Somewhat unsatisfactorily, they 'solve' the paradox by cutting the Gordian knot with twenty-two (s)words:

Quote
"The energy flow associated with S in this case is merely formal; it has no physical significance because it cannot be detected."

Back to Jordan and Balmain, they go on explaining how integrating over a closed surface will make the apparent paradox disappear and how this implies that we cannot say where the energy is because if what matters is the integral, then we can add a zero-divergence vector to ExH and still get the same result. And then they draw a parallel with the gravitational potential energy case: where is the energy of a rock raised at an height h over the ground?

Following Ramo Whinnery VanDuzer (and Stratton), I like to think that the energy is in the space where the fields are.  RWvD have this to say:

p 140 3e
Quote
Although it is known from the proof only that total energy flow out of a region per unit time is given by the total surface integral

    fig poynting theorem

it is often convenient to think of the [Poynting] vector P defined by P = E x H as the vector giving direction and magnitude of energy flow density at any point in space. Though this step does not follow strictly, it is a most useful interpretation and one which is justified for the majority of applications.

and then they point to the example depicting a resistor where the Poynting vector is directed radially inward and say

p 142 3e (italics theirs, bold mine)
Quote
"We know that this result does represent the correct power flow into the conductor, being dissipated in heat. If we accept the Poynting vector as giving the correct density of power flow at each point, we must then picture the battery or other source of energy as setting up the electric and magnetic fields, so that the energy flows through the field and into the wire through its surface.

The Poynting theorem cannot be considered a proof of the connectedness of this interpretation, for it says only that the total power balance for a given region will be computed correctly in this manner, but the interpretation is nevertheless a useful one."

In the third edition they also add this:

p 141 3e
Quote
"It should be noted that there are cases for which there will be no power flow through the electromagnetic field. Accepting the foregoing interpretation of the Poynting vector, we see that it will be zero when either E or H is zero or when the two vectors are mutually parallel.

• Thus, for example, there is no power flow in the vicinity of a system of static charges that has electric field but no magnetic field.
• Another very important case is that of a perfect conductor, which by definition must have a zero tangential component of electric field at its surface. Then P can have no component normal to the conductor and there can be no power flow into the perfect conductor.
"


Note 1: Regarding the transformations so slow as to be considered almost static so they would not lose energy to radiation, I have found comfort in

    Stratton,
    Electromagnetic Theory

    1941:

p. 131, italics mine
Quote
"Poynting’s Theorem: In the preceding sections of this chapter it has been shown how the work done in bringing about small variations in the intensity or distribution of charge and current sources may be expressed in terms of integrals of the field vectors extended over all space.
The form of these integrals suggests, but does not prove, the hypothesis that electric and magnetic energies are distributed throughout the field with volume densities respectively

   fig densities formulae

"The derivation of these results was based on the assumption of reversible changes; the building up of the field was assumed to take place so slowly that it might be represented by a succession of stationary states".
"It is essential that we determine now whether or not such expressions for the energy density remain valid when the fields are varying at an arbitrary rate. It is apparent, furthermore, that if our hypothesis of an energy distribution throughout the field is at all tenable, a change of field intensity and energy density must be associated with a flow of energy from or toward the source."

On the arbitrariness of the assumptions relating Poynting's theorem Stratton has this to say:

p. 133
Quote
"As a general integral of the field equations, the validity of Poynting's theorem is unimpeachable. Its physical interpretation, however, is open to some criticism. The remark has already been made that from a volume integral representing the total energy of a field no rigorous conclusion can be drawn with regard to its distribution. The energy of the electrostatic field was first expressed as the sum of two volume integrals.
Of these one was transformed by the divergence theorem into a surface integral which was made to vanish by allowing the surface to recede to the farther limits of the field. Inversely, the divergence of any vector function vanishing properly at infinity may be added to the conventional expression u = 1/2 E.D for the density of electrostatic energy without affecting its total value. A similar indefiniteness appears in the magnetostatic case."

But all in all

pp. 134-135, bold mine
Quote
"The classical interpretation of Poynting’s theorem appears to rest to a considerable degree on hypothesis. Various alternative forms of the theorem have been offered from time to time,’ but none of these has the advantage of greater plausibility or greater simplicity to recommend it, and it is significant that thus far no other interpretation has contributed anything of value to the theory.
The hypothesis of an energy density in the electromagnetic field and a flow of intensity S = E x H has, on the other hand, proved extraordinarily fruitful. A theory is not an absolute truth but a self-consistent analytical formulation of the relations governing a group of natural phenomena. By this standard there is every reason to retain the Poynting-Heaviside viewpoint until a clash with new experimental evidence shall call for its revision."

Now, what experimental evidence have we?

« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 09:18:17 pm by Sredni »
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Offline snarkysparky

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Re: "Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
« Reply #899 on: January 12, 2022, 09:10:20 pm »
SOME of the energy flows outside the wires in the transient time.   

Like a ocean wave harvesting machine being driven up by the tides.   It moves but once the tide settles it does nothing.

 


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