Unicode

[IanMacdonald]

The big problem with unicode is that it's become a fragmented standard, with numerous different implementations. Worst is Microsoft Word's use of characters that are only available in 32-bit unicode. For no sensible purpose either, the characters in question are just a fancy style of double quotes. So for the sake of this stupid piece of frippery they've created a problem for everyone.

On the Web, pages tend to use UTF-8 but Javascript only understands UTF-16, and PHP basically doesn't understand Unicode. So, when you try to do string comparisons on Web data the outcome is basically pot luck.

A problem you frequently meet is that of unicode filenames on websites, where the file can be saved to disk but cannot be opened by the associated application. 

[gnif]

Well in all instances we are covered now, the database is using utf8mb4 (4-Byte UTF-8 Unicode Encoding) which covers every possible encoding.

[RoGeorge]

Nice work, but why bother the effort?

If the answer is "just to display +/- like symbols", then it doesn't makes much sense, IMO. It's an English forum, mainly for electronics related topics of EE. I don't think EEvblog users have difficulties understanding what uV stands for. Probably most of the users won't waste time looking how to type the appropriate symbol anyway.

I think the real answer is because I can, and because it is cool to have it. Long story short, I'm not a fan of Unicode. It comes with a lot of problems, but no major benefits for English.

[T3sl4co1l]

Nice work, but why bother the effort?

If the answer is "just to display +/- like symbols", then it doesn't makes much sense, IMO. It's an English forum, mainly for electronics related topics of EE. I don't think EEvblog users have difficulties understanding what uV stands for. Probably most of the users won't waste time looking how to type the appropriate symbol anyway.

I think the real answer is because I can, and because it is cool to have it. Long story short, I'm not a fan of Unicode. It comes with a lot of problems, but no major benefits for English.

The problem was worse than that: at best, 7-bit ASCII was supported, not even a traditional full 8-bit encoding like CP437 or ISO-8859-1.  Extended characters are commonly encountered: besides the  hack which we no longer need on the toolbar*, even just simple things like accents ("naïve" makes it into the English dictionary), let alone foreign language excerpts which were completely impossible to quote here.  It's hard to discuss something, even if the discussion is in unaccented English, when the source is not.

*But, speaking of which, since we still have jsLaTeX here, I wonder if we could add a button or two, e.g., "insert inline math", "insert display math", and it's just a dialog where you enter your code.  (But preferably, the dialog could also have a link to the code reference, or some helpers or such -- this could get quite deep quite quickly of course, and that immediately moves beyond the capability of an alert dialog, to a full HTML-CSS popover workbox or the like, and...)  Just something simple like that, I think would help improve its use.

Tim

[wraper]

Nice work, but why bother the effort?

If the answer is "just to display +/- like symbols", then it doesn't makes much sense, IMO. It's an English forum, mainly for electronics related topics of EE. I don't think EEvblog users have difficulties understanding what uV stands for. Probably most of the users won't waste time looking how to type the appropriate symbol anyway.

I think the real answer is because I can, and because it is cool to have it. Long story short, I'm not a fan of Unicode. It comes with a lot of problems, but no major benefits for English.

Yeah it's certainly "better" when thousands of people constantly jump through hoops and figure out workarounds instead of fixing the problem at it's core a single time  . And it's not nearly limited to +/-.

[Karel]

Every single EE, around the world, as you stated, without any additional localization or clarifications, must read basic English.

Practically, yes. How else can they do their job?

By reading datasheets that are printed in another language, like Mandarin.

Where do you find them at, for example, the website of Texas Instruments?

http://www.ti.com.cn/product/cn/MSP430FR2000/technicaldocuments

That took, like, three seconds.

Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?

[Ampera]

We weren't even using ASCII, as old English characters like þ, ð, and æ I know worked.

Not to mention why are you even complaining? It's not like it affects you, or anybody else in any significant way. Complaining about the fact that you have more hardware characters to work with is like complaining that you hate the typewriter your using because you can do 90 WPM on it and it doesn't jam, whereas your old one jammed at 30.

This is an English EE forum, but we still can find use for more characters. The upgrade has been done, and by the sound and time of it, I don't think it was that much of an extra hassle.

Another thing. I actually found it impressive that Ti had Chinese spec sheets on their website, considering they are out of Texas. Just take a look at how many electronics companies there are in China and Japan. You can see that there are datasheets in other languages, if they are being made in other languages, there must be EEs reading them.

[Monkeh]

Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?

I suggest you answer your own question by following the same steps I did:
1: Go to their website
2: Pick a random part
3: Look for a langauge option

[Karel]

Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?

I suggest you answer your own question by following the same steps I did:
1: Go to their website
2: Pick a random part
3: Look for a langauge option

Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.

STMicroelectronics: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.

Maxim Integrated: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.

Nexperia: website can be set to chinese. Datasheets remain in english only.

So, electronic engineers don't need to be able to read basic english? They simply avoid the above manufacturers (and probably others as well)?

[Cerebus]

Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?

I suggest you answer your own question by following the same steps I did:
1: Go to their website
2: Pick a random part
3: Look for a langauge option

Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.

STMicroelectronics: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.

Maxim Integrated: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.

Nexperia: website can be set to chinese. Datasheets remain in english only.

So, electronic engineers don't need to be able to read basic english? They simply avoid the above manufacturers (and probably others as well)?

Carol (I've anglicized your name as that would seem to suit your sensibilities more), what is it that you hope to get, to achieve, with this line of argument?

[Karel]

Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?

I suggest you answer your own question by following the same steps I did:
1: Go to their website
2: Pick a random part
3: Look for a langauge option

Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.

STMicroelectronics: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.

Maxim Integrated: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.

Nexperia: website can be set to chinese. Datasheets remain in english only.

So, electronic engineers don't need to be able to read basic english? They simply avoid the above manufacturers (and probably others as well)?

Carol (I've anglicized your name as that would seem to suit your sensibilities more), what is it that you hope to get, to achieve, with this line of argument?

Originally, it was a reply to the reply of TwoOfFive who stated that electronic engineers can still do their job when they are not able to read
basic english: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unicode/msg1487445/#msg1487445

[Ampera]

Which is true. There are non-English datasheets in the world. To my knowledge, most of that technical writing is done by EEs, so if they can all magically understand English, why do Chinese datasheets exist?

Not to mention, just because those specific, likely US/Europe oriented websites don't have their datasheets in another language, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I bet you that in order for an EE company to be taken seriously, they have to release datasheets in Mandarin.

Your logic is worse than Jeremy Clarkson's.

[Karel]

Which is true. There are non-English datasheets in the world. To my knowledge, most of that technical writing is done by EEs, so if they can all magically understand English, why do Chinese datasheets exist?

Not to mention, just because those specific, likely US/Europe oriented websites don't have their datasheets in another language, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I bet you that in order for an EE company to be taken seriously, they have to release datasheets in Mandarin.

Your logic is worse than Jeremy Clarkson's.

Probably the situation is getting slowly better for chinese engineers.
Maybe in the future an EE only needs to be able to read basic english or basic mandarin. Who knows.

What about EE's in Europe (apart from the UK ofcourse), should they be able to read basic english?

What about EE's in Mexico and South-America? Russia? The Middle-East?

You think EE's don't need to be able to read basic english?

[IanB]

Originally, it was a reply to the reply of TwoOfFive who stated that electronic engineers can still do their job when they are not able to read
basic english: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unicode/msg1487445/#msg1487445

Which is true. There are non-English datasheets in the world. To my knowledge, most of that technical writing is done by EEs, so if they can all magically understand English, why do Chinese datasheets exist?

TwoOfFive probably hasn't seen the world much. Anyone you meet in a professional context from any part of the world will have some competence or fluency in English. English is the international language of communication.

Trust me, I have decades of professional experience working as an engineer, and everyone I have worked with from anywhere, be it Asia, Europe, Middle East, Africa, South America, anywhere in the world, they all have conversed naturally in English, both spoken and written. It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.

[Monkeh]

It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.

One language has to win - right now it's English.

[BillB]

It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.

One language has to win - right now it's English.

As a 'Murican who only speaks 'Murican, I'm thankful for this.   

Not that I'm completely unworldly; I did study French for four years in school.  But where did that get me?  Nulle part!   

[Ampera]

Originally, it was a reply to the reply of TwoOfFive who stated that electronic engineers can still do their job when they are not able to read
basic english: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unicode/msg1487445/#msg1487445

Which is true. There are non-English datasheets in the world. To my knowledge, most of that technical writing is done by EEs, so if they can all magically understand English, why do Chinese datasheets exist?

TwoOfFive probably hasn't seen the world much. Anyone you meet in a professional context from any part of the world will have some competence or fluency in English. English is the international language of communication.

Trust me, I have decades of professional experience working as an engineer, and everyone I have worked with from anywhere, be it Asia, Europe, Middle East, Africa, South America, anywhere in the world, they all have conversed naturally in English, both spoken and written. It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.

By absolutely no means get me wrong, I will concede that the majority may have some English knowledge, but there must be some groups of EEs that don't. Considering there are only 1.5 billion English speakers in the world, I find it hard to believe that entire 6 billion person group does not have any EEs in it.

If we want to talk about what language will win in the end, we all know it's going to be Cornish. The widespread acceptance of the language and it's mass appeal makes me think that it's current speaker base of only 500 will be completely temporary.

[wraper]

Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.

http://www.microchip.co.jp/download/index.php?Mode=4&CategoryID=08ff3e00bf7fedc9fd6adb0aa9a3499b55a4aff3

[wraper]

What about EE's in Mexico and South-America? Russia? The Middle-East?

Do you realize there are tons of components with names using Cyrillic and datasheets in Russian only? In the past you couldn't write such part number properly, and adding picture did not help much as people wouldn't be able to type them in the search anyway. Say, ЭКР1568ХА2 or КТ361Б, even P and X are not what you may think. They are completely different letters and same looking Latin letters won't work for search.

[wraper]

It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.

One language has to win - right now it's English.

If you count native and non native speakers together, English and Mandarin Chinese are on par. As of native speakers, Mandarin wins by factor of 2.5.

[IanB]

If you count native and non native speakers together, English and Mandarin Chinese are on par. As of native speakers, Mandarin wins by factor of 2.5.

But that isn't the question. If engineers from different countries with different languages meet, or exchange emails, or hold telephone calls, they converse in English, not Chinese...

[wraper]

If you count native and non native speakers together, English and Mandarin Chinese are on par. As of native speakers, Mandarin wins by factor of 2.5.

But that isn't the question. If engineers from different countries with different languages meet, or exchange emails, or hold telephone calls, they converse in English, not Chinese...

The fact is there is too much stuff available in non English only which was never intended for English speakers. And time to time people ask for help or just want to discuss that. If you think that all world spins around English, you are wrong.

[wraper]

Trust me, I have decades of professional experience working as an engineer, and everyone I have worked with from anywhere, be it Asia, Europe, Middle East, Africa, South America, anywhere in the world, they all have conversed naturally in English, both spoken and written. It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.

What you are talking about is confirmation bias. Sure you were taking with people who speak english to some extent. Because those who don't won't speak/work with you, to begin with.

[Karel]

Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.

http://www.microchip.co.jp/download/index.php?Mode=4&CategoryID=08ff3e00bf7fedc9fd6adb0aa9a3499b55a4aff3

Good catch!

[Karel]

What about EE's in Mexico and South-America? Russia? The Middle-East?

Do you realize there are tons of components with names using Cyrillic and datasheets in Russian only? In the past you couldn't write such part number properly, and adding picture did not help much as people wouldn't be able to type them in the search anyway. Say, ЭКР1568ХА2 or КТ361Б, even P and X are not what you may think. They are completely different letters and same looking Latin letters won't work for search.

How does that help an EE in Mexico? Or Brazil?