Thinking about leaving the UK

[m k]

Some more.

Tämä tää (this)
Tuo toi (that)
Se se (it)

Nämä nää (these)
Nuo noi (those)
Ne ne (them)

Reading Finnish is easy, learn pronunciation of vowels

A Adam
E Echo
I Indiana
O Oscar
U yoU, the ending
Y
Ä mAd
Ö

U -> Y and O -> Ö are like A -> Ä

Learn those and you can practically read bedtime stories for kids of your Finnish friends.

Double phonems(?) can be tricky.
I've heard that some foreigners can't hear the difference.
(for Finns there is a clear diference)

'Kylä' is a village.
'Kyllä' is yes.

'Puro' is a stream.
'Puuro' is porridge.

'R' is hard, like a sound of an old alarm clock with hammer and bells.

Earlier 'peruna' syllables are pe-ru-na, very easy.
1.CV
Syllable ends usually between double consonant and after double vowels.
2.CVC
3.CVV

(di-fe-ren-ce)
(dif-fe-ren-ce)

Plurals
Ky-lät
Puu-rot

Possession
Ky-län
Puu-ron

Plural possession
Ky-li-en
Puu-ro-jen

From village to village
Ky-läs-tä ky-lään

And from porridge to porridge
Puu-ros-ta puu-roon

Even easier.

Maybe toughest in Finnish is 'NG' riNG.

Shoe and shoes.
'Ken-kä'
'Ken-gät' not 'ken-kät'

Pronunciation goes so that a phonem(?) continues over a syllable.
Something like 'keng-gät' but stressed from the beginning, like mostly always.

Borrowed word signal.
'Sig-naa-li'

[IanB]

And from the other side of the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch/h9y1HrDz_Eg

[guenthert]

two languages, written and spoken, plus dialects

Yeah - but I don't think there is any language where this isn't the case, dialects are everywhere and so are differences between written and "actually spoken" (in daily dialogue) language.

   That might be the case, but in some languages it's clearly more disjunct than in others.  Written German is fairly well aligned to the spoken one ("Hochdeutsch" as spoken natively around Hannover in Lower Saxony/Germany).  This is due to the written language being adjusted occasionally (not universally appreciated, see Orthographiereform of 1996) as the spoken one naturally develops.  Where that is not done, spoken and written language drift apart.

   But to the original topic: I worked for a number of years in a company originally founded in the UK, later the HQ was moved to California, as there more funding was available.  Some of my colleagues followed that move, other stayed in the original office.  Some of those who originally came to the US moved later back for various reasons, but it's my understanding that cost of education for the kids was a big factor.  Others stayed to this day and enjoy weather and the much better pay (in Silicon Valley at least) and the food (also SV).  I moved back (to Germany), but chiefly due to cost-of-living considerations.

[ebastler]

Double phonems(?) can be tricky.
I've heard that some foreigners can't hear the difference.
(for Finns there is a clear diference)

'Kylä' is a village.
'Kyllä' is yes.

I'd say the difference is clearly audible -- it just works differently from what we are used to.

In Germanic languages, a double consonant essentially shortens the pronounciation of the vowel that preceeds it. In Finnish, the consonant itself is also pronounced for a bit longer; you are "lingering" on the double-consonant a bit. When spoken slowly, it sometimes even sounds to me like two consonants are spoken in a row, with a little "dip" inbetween. (Not a glottal stop, but a little delay.)

So I think I can hear the difference pretty well -- but it takes some effort to reproduce it when speaking, and I might not get that quite right. Not that I speak any Finnish, but at least I make an effort to pronounce the names of Finnish colleagues correctly.

[pdenisowski]

Written German is fairly well aligned to the spoken one ("Hochdeutsch" as spoken natively around Hannover in Lower Saxony/Germany).  This is due to the written language being adjusted occasionally (not universally appreciated, see Orthographiereform of 1996) as the spoken one naturally develops.  Where that is not done, spoken and written language drift apart.

That's putting it mildly   Almost all the polls and studies since the Rechtschreibreform show that barely 10% of Germans approve of the changes.

[ebastler]

Almost all the polls and studies since the Rechtschreibreform show that barely 10% of Germans approve of the changes.

That has changed a lot since 1996 and has largely become a non-issue, I'd say. Close to 40% of the population are 35 and younger, and have hence learned to spell after the Rechtschreibreform was introduced. And most older writers have adjusted over time; I would expect significantly more than 10% of them to be OK with the reform by now.

I hardly see any "old spelling" in contemporary texts, whether formally published or informal. I do see plenty of plain wrong spelling, but that's another matter... 

[Gerhard_dk4xp]

As someone who speaks English and German and who also studied some Swedish:  German helps much, much more than English in learning Swedish, but it still doesn't help to the extent that it does with Dutch (which looks and sounds almost like a German dialect). 

I think many Germans could guess at the meaning of a lot of (especially written) Dutch, but would probably not be able to understand newspaper headlines in Swedish without some prior study of the language.

As a kid of maybe 7, I sat on a park bench in Middelburg, NL, devouring
a bag of fries, when 2 grandmas took place next to me and engaged in
a long, slooow conservation. I could understand most of it, even if I had
never been exposed to Dutch before.

Me, a German Mosel-Franke. :-)
OK, we spoke Hi German at school, dialect was nowhere accepted,
even my mom was a teacher.

cheers, Gerhard

[aeberbach]

@eevblog claimed Australia's housing issues are caused by immigration. Maybe we shouldn't allow people without permanent residency (at least) to own property, or multiple properties.

But various reports recently said 1 in 20 houses are sitting vacant. There's one next to me and it been empty for more than 5 years, all year round.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-07/vacant-houses-test-the-limits-of-private-property-rights/104064376
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/australia-datablog/2023/sep/02/up-to-136000-houses-are-empty-in-australia-find-out-where-they-are
https://www.domain.com.au/news/one-in-20-melbourne-homes-empty-during-housing-crisis-2-1301659/

It's far easier to blame immigrants than to think about changing a system of concessions and tax cuts that make keeping a property empty an attractive option.

[IanB]

It's far easier to blame immigrants than to think about changing a system of concessions and tax cuts that make keeping a property empty an attractive option.

As it happens, the UK has a tax penalty for empty properties. Single occupancy attracts a tax concession. Unoccupied properties are taxed at the full rate. If they remain empty after that, the tax can increase up to 4x the standard rate.

[EEVblog]

@eevblog claimed Australia's housing issues are caused by immigration. Maybe we shouldn't allow people without permanent residency (at least) to own property, or multiple properties.
But various reports recently said 1 in 20 houses are sitting vacant. There's one next to me and it been empty for more than 5 years, all year round.
It's far easier to blame immigrants than to think about changing a system of concessions and tax cuts that make keeping a property empty an attractive option.

I made no such claim that immigration is the only issue or soluation at play here.
But yes, we should not let foreigners own property here either, especially during a housing crisis.

[guenthert]

@eevblog claimed Australia's housing issues are caused by immigration. Maybe we shouldn't allow people without permanent residency (at least) to own property, or multiple properties.
But various reports recently said 1 in 20 houses are sitting vacant. There's one next to me and it been empty for more than 5 years, all year round.
It's far easier to blame immigrants than to think about changing a system of concessions and tax cuts that make keeping a property empty an attractive option.

I made no such claim that immigration is the only issue or soluation at play here.
But yes, we should not let foreigners own property here either, especially during a housing crisis.

Wouldn't such a ruling prevent foreign investment in real estate, further disincentivize new construction?

Here in Germany there too is a housing crisis (which I experienced first-hand when moving back last year).  There are however also millions of empty houses/apartments. The availability is very uneven distributed, particularly large cities lack available housing, while on the countryside there's a surplus.  I was thinking of moving back to Berlin, but gave up on that thought; it's currently not economically viable.  Instead I moved to a small town in the far west and enjoy it so far, as I'm in the fortunate situation of not being dependent on employment.  Not an option for everyone.

[bat]

Find a job in a company making crystal oscillators and resonators. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're building more and more satellites. In fact, they are becoming more "budget-friendly" by the day, meaning we're sending up more and more. There's also a new market emerging called "New Space," which is definitely going to be a growing field. I currently work at a company that manufactures crystal oscillators. Our results are good, but I believe they could definitely be better.

[ebastler]

Find a job in a company making crystal oscillators and resonators. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're building more and more satellites.

Umm... And as we all know, about 80% of the value of a satellite is in the crystal oscillators it uses. And conversely, about 80% of the crystal oscillator market goes into satellites. 

No, not really.

[Zero999]

@eevblog claimed Australia's housing issues are caused by immigration. Maybe we shouldn't allow people without permanent residency (at least) to own property, or multiple properties.
But various reports recently said 1 in 20 houses are sitting vacant. There's one next to me and it been empty for more than 5 years, all year round.
It's far easier to blame immigrants than to think about changing a system of concessions and tax cuts that make keeping a property empty an attractive option.

I made no such claim that immigration is the only issue or soluation at play here.
But yes, we should not let foreigners own property here either, especially during a housing crisis.

I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, immigration is certainly a huge contributory factor to our sky high house prices. It's true interest rates, planning, right to buy and non-resident buyers, are all reasons, but it's simply a matter of supply and demand. An increase in population will increase in demand for places for people to live and in the last 25 years, population growth has been due to immigration.

[pdenisowski]

That has changed a lot since 1996 and has largely become a non-issue, I'd say. Close to 40% of the population are 35 and younger, and have hence learned to spell after the Rechtschreibreform was introduced. And most older writers have adjusted over time; I would expect significantly more than 10% of them to be OK with the reform by now.

I suspect that, to some extent, increased conformity to the new spelling rules might be mostly due to auto-correct "suggestions" - MS Word pesters me constantly when I write German the way I learned it.  After a while it's easier to give in rather than turn off the auto-correction and take the risk of typing something that would have been wrong before the "reform" as well

[nctnico]

@eevblog claimed Australia's housing issues are caused by immigration. Maybe we shouldn't allow people without permanent residency (at least) to own property, or multiple properties.
But various reports recently said 1 in 20 houses are sitting vacant. There's one next to me and it been empty for more than 5 years, all year round.
It's far easier to blame immigrants than to think about changing a system of concessions and tax cuts that make keeping a property empty an attractive option.

I made no such claim that immigration is the only issue or soluation at play here.
But yes, we should not let foreigners own property here either, especially during a housing crisis.

I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, immigration is certainly a huge contributory factor to our sky high house prices. It's true interest rates, planning, right to buy and non-resident buyers, are all reasons, but it's simply a matter of supply and demand. An increase in population will increase in demand for places for people to live and in the last 25 years, population growth has been due to immigration.

Immigration is not the root of the problem. It is a result of increased economic activity which needs people to do the work. In most of west-Europe there is a high demand of workers so people get brought in from abroad. The only problem is that there simple aren't enough homes to put all these people in. So either reduce economic activity OR build more homes.

[Zero999]

@eevblog claimed Australia's housing issues are caused by immigration. Maybe we shouldn't allow people without permanent residency (at least) to own property, or multiple properties.
But various reports recently said 1 in 20 houses are sitting vacant. There's one next to me and it been empty for more than 5 years, all year round.
It's far easier to blame immigrants than to think about changing a system of concessions and tax cuts that make keeping a property empty an attractive option.

I made no such claim that immigration is the only issue or soluation at play here.
But yes, we should not let foreigners own property here either, especially during a housing crisis.

I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, immigration is certainly a huge contributory factor to our sky high house prices. It's true interest rates, planning, right to buy and non-resident buyers, are all reasons, but it's simply a matter of supply and demand. An increase in population will increase in demand for places for people to live and in the last 25 years, population growth has been due to immigration.

Immigration is not the root of the problem. It is a result of increased economic activity which needs people to do the work. In most of west-Europe there is a high demand of workers so people get brought in from abroad. The only problem is that there simple aren't enough homes to put all these people in. So either reduce economic activity OR build more homes.

The increase in economic activity is not boosting the GDP per capita or productivity. The people migrating here are coming from poorer economies with lower wages, which is dragging down our living standards. There are other countries who are doing very well, without such high levels of immigration: Japan, Singapore, South Korea etc. One interesting point about South Korea, is many younger people there are against reunification with the DPRK because it will result in a fall in living standards for them.

This is very simple. Immigration from poor countries will reduce living standards and productivity, whilst importing people from more wealthy countries will boost it.

[themadhippy]

but in the UK, immigration is certainly a huge contributory factor to our sky high house prices. It's true interest rates, planning, right to buy and non-resident buyers, are all reasons

dont help when developers are sitting on large swathes of land waiting on prices to go up

[tooki]

Almost all the polls and studies since the Rechtschreibreform show that barely 10% of Germans approve of the changes.

That has changed a lot since 1996 and has largely become a non-issue, I'd say. Close to 40% of the population are 35 and younger, and have hence learned to spell after the Rechtschreibreform was introduced. And most older writers have adjusted over time; I would expect significantly more than 10% of them to be OK with the reform by now.

I hardly see any "old spelling" in contemporary texts, whether formally published or informal. I do see plenty of plain wrong spelling, but that's another matter... 

Didn't they also reverse many of the most contentious 1996 changes (like “Majonäse”)?

I know that many publishers created house rules adopting some of the changes and rejecting others.

I snuck in under the radar: my class at the Gymnasium was the last to be taught under the old orthography, so I didn’t have th change halfway through my schooling here. Although even if I had needed to, it wouldn’t have been as big a deal as in Germany, since Switzerland rejected many of the new spellings outright.

[nctnico]

@eevblog claimed Australia's housing issues are caused by immigration. Maybe we shouldn't allow people without permanent residency (at least) to own property, or multiple properties.
But various reports recently said 1 in 20 houses are sitting vacant. There's one next to me and it been empty for more than 5 years, all year round.
It's far easier to blame immigrants than to think about changing a system of concessions and tax cuts that make keeping a property empty an attractive option.

I made no such claim that immigration is the only issue or soluation at play here.
But yes, we should not let foreigners own property here either, especially during a housing crisis.

I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, immigration is certainly a huge contributory factor to our sky high house prices. It's true interest rates, planning, right to buy and non-resident buyers, are all reasons, but it's simply a matter of supply and demand. An increase in population will increase in demand for places for people to live and in the last 25 years, population growth has been due to immigration.

Immigration is not the root of the problem. It is a result of increased economic activity which needs people to do the work. In most of west-Europe there is a high demand of workers so people get brought in from abroad. The only problem is that there simple aren't enough homes to put all these people in. So either reduce economic activity OR build more homes.

The increase in economic activity is not boosting the GDP per capita or productivity. The people migrating here are coming from poorer economies with lower wages, which is dragging down our living standards. There are other countries who are doing very well, without such high levels of immigration: Japan, Singapore, South Korea etc.

I don't think so. 40% of the population of Singapore consists of immigrants. Someone needs to collect the garbage, flip burgers, replenish the grocery store, etc. These are not jobs which add much to GDP but keep a country going nevertheless.

[ebastler]

Didn't they also reverse many of the most contentious 1996 changes (like “Majonäse”)?

Indeed, some of the most egregious innovations were cancelled in later revisions of the reform -- Majonäse, Schickoree, Grislibär... They had been introduced as optional "easier" alternatives to the traditional spellings, but they are no longer considered correct at all.

As it stands, the most visible remaining change is to use "ss" instead of "ß" at the end of a word if the preceding vowel is a short one. Very logical, since that is how it has always worked within words too. And very visible, since "dass" is such a common word. (And one many writers need to give some tought to -- is it "das" or "dass" now?)

Apart from that, most remaining changes are either alternative spellings where one can choose to use the older one instead -- or changes to capitalization or splitting/concatenating words where nobody was sure of the rules to begin with...

Oh, and then there's the rule that three identical consonants in a row survive when they occur in concatenated words like Schifffahrt. That's an actual change where the old "Schiffahrt" spelling is no longer correct; but it's also rather exotic, so I think whether people use old or new spelling is not inflicting much pain on anyone. 

[coppice]

@eevblog claimed Australia's housing issues are caused by immigration. Maybe we shouldn't allow people without permanent residency (at least) to own property, or multiple properties.
But various reports recently said 1 in 20 houses are sitting vacant. There's one next to me and it been empty for more than 5 years, all year round.
It's far easier to blame immigrants than to think about changing a system of concessions and tax cuts that make keeping a property empty an attractive option.

I made no such claim that immigration is the only issue or soluation at play here.
But yes, we should not let foreigners own property here either, especially during a housing crisis.

I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, immigration is certainly a huge contributory factor to our sky high house prices. It's true interest rates, planning, right to buy and non-resident buyers, are all reasons, but it's simply a matter of supply and demand. An increase in population will increase in demand for places for people to live and in the last 25 years, population growth has been due to immigration.

Immigration is not the root of the problem. It is a result of increased economic activity which needs people to do the work. In most of west-Europe there is a high demand of workers so people get brought in from abroad. The only problem is that there simple aren't enough homes to put all these people in. So either reduce economic activity OR build more homes.

The increase in economic activity is not boosting the GDP per capita or productivity. The people migrating here are coming from poorer economies with lower wages, which is dragging down our living standards. There are other countries who are doing very well, without such high levels of immigration: Japan, Singapore, South Korea etc.

I don't think so. 40% of the population of Singapore consists of immigrants. Someone needs to collect the garbage, flip burgers, replenish the grocery store, etc. These are not jobs which add much to GDP but keep a country going nevertheless.

Most of those doing menial work in Singapore are not immigrants. They come across the causeway from Malaysia in the morning, and go back at night.

[TimFox]

Almost all the polls and studies since the Rechtschreibreform show that barely 10% of Germans approve of the changes.

That has changed a lot since 1996 and has largely become a non-issue, I'd say. Close to 40% of the population are 35 and younger, and have hence learned to spell after the Rechtschreibreform was introduced. And most older writers have adjusted over time; I would expect significantly more than 10% of them to be OK with the reform by now.

I hardly see any "old spelling" in contemporary texts, whether formally published or informal. I do see plenty of plain wrong spelling, but that's another matter... 

An earlier discussion of the need for language and spelling reform (ca. 1878):  https://www.daad.org/files/2022/09/Mark_Twain-Broschuere.pdf

[ebastler]

An earlier discussion of the need for language and spelling reform (ca. 1878):  https://www.daad.org/files/2022/09/Mark_Twain-Broschuere.pdf

Thanks for that one!

Mark Twain would be pleased to know that we have made great progress in making the Genitive optional; you can now use the Dative instead. And we are currently working on those pesky male/female endings, in the interest of inclusive, gender-neutral language.

[TimFox]

An earlier discussion of the need for language and spelling reform (ca. 1878):  https://www.daad.org/files/2022/09/Mark_Twain-Broschuere.pdf

Thanks for that one!

Mark Twain would be pleased to know that we have made great progress in making the Genitive optional; you can now use the Dative instead. And we are currently working on those pesky male/female endings, in the interest of inclusive, gender-neutral language.

I have been wondering how nations where the language makes much of gender (including nouns that are not obviously sexy) are coping with the present demand for gender-neutral (as opposed to neuter gender) pronouns.