Author Topic: Telsa remotely disables Auto-Pilot on used car it sold at its own auction ...  (Read 6306 times)

0 Members and 13 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline amyk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8331
People have been stockpiling and restoring vintage vehicles for a long time. I don't expect that to stop either.
 

Offline MyHeadHz

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 165
  • Country: us
Aside from the arguments already mentioned, wouldn't that simply mean that the original buyer still has ownership of the software?  I imagine there is more to this story, like maybe the original buyer decided to buy another Tesla vehicle and transferred the license.  (Surely Tesla wouldn't just kill the license and make them buy a second license if they get another Tesla...)
 

Offline Stray Electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2139
Aside from the arguments already mentioned, wouldn't that simply mean that the original buyer still has ownership of the software?

    I don't know. Do you still "own" the license to every version of Windows that you ever bought? If so, of how much use have they been?

I imagine there is more to this story, like maybe the original buyer decided to buy another Tesla vehicle and transferred the license.  (Surely Tesla wouldn't just kill the license and make them buy a second license if they get another Tesla...)

    What makes you think that Tesla wouldn't "kill" the old license and make you buy and new license along with the new car?  (And make the buyer of your now used car buy another license?)  MicroSoft does it all of the time. Go read your license agreement, it clearly states that it is only for one machine.

"I imagine there is more to this story, like maybe the original buyer decided to buy another Tesla vehicle and transferred the license.  "

    If that was the case, then why did Tesla transfer the car to the dealer with the "licensed" features still operational?  If it was a matter of a license, then the features should have been deactivated the moment that the license was transferred to another vehicle.  NO excuse; since since Tesla did have the car in their possession and since that could dis-able the features remotely.

   Never underestimate the GREED of companies like MS and Tesla!
 

Offline Red Squirrel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2751
  • Country: ca
I don't like this idea at all, that there is essentially DRM on a car.  If I buy a piece of hardware I want it to be mine, and controlled by me, and I don't want anyone to be able to start changing or disabling stuff on it.  If the car has the physical capability of doing something, then don't take that feature away just because I'm not paying even more money.  I already paid for the hardware that allows that feature to work.

I dread that this will becoming the norm over time.  It's one of the reasons they are pushing 5G so much as the goal is to make everything IoT including cars.   They are already doing this with consumer IoT stuff like home automation and security, that is just the start.  People just accept having to be at the mercy of a 3rd party (and in some cases pay a fee per month) for the product you bought to work.   The only way I think this is remotely acceptable is if the product is free.  But even then, me personally I'm not a fan of renting, I want to own, and I want to fully own.
 

Offline thinkfat

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2154
  • Country: de
  • This is just a hobby I spend too much time on.
    • Matthias' Hackerstübchen
Oh, OK, I get it now. It's not a car, it's a phone! And the autopilot is an app! Yes, now it all makes sense!

 :palm:
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

Offline rdl

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3667
  • Country: us
The original vehicle sticker plainly lists the EAP and FSD as individual line items with a price. This normally means the items would stay with the vehicle for life just as with any other optional equipment.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 17303
  • Country: lv
The original vehicle sticker plainly lists the EAP and FSD as individual line items with a price. This normally means the items would stay with the vehicle for life just as with any other optional equipment.
Car was since then returned to Tesla back and sold by Tesla again on auction to this dealer who scammed the buyer. And again, this is reproduction of sticker, not photo.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 10:24:50 pm by wraper »
 

Offline rdl

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3667
  • Country: us
Yes. I did say normally. The sticker image could be fake and Tesla is free to do as they wish. You can't believe anything you see on the internet. Too bad that's where most of our information comes from.
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1093
  • Country: gb
  • Embedded stuff
Tesla are using the same DRM model as many other tech companies, e.g. Amazon Kindle. If you "buy" a book on Kindle, you get considerably less rights than with a physical book. You can't transfer your Kindle license to another person, and Amazon can disable Kindles remotely. Being old school, I consider this outrageous, and no one in their right mind would buy into such a scheme. But millions do, and seem mostly happy with it, apart from the odd few who find out the hard way.

We are at a transition between the old and the new, and soon if not already people will expect the new limited DRM style of accessing books, music, movies, software, apps, door bells etc etc as a matter of course. It's the new normal.

So we can rewrite "The original vehicle sticker plainly lists the EAP and FSD as individual line items with a price. This normally means the items would stay with the vehicle for life just as with any other optional equipment. "

as:

"The original vehicle sticker plainly lists the EAP and FSD as individual licensed items with a price. This normally means only the original purchaser is licensed to use those options, and the items would need to be re-licensed by a new owner, just as with any other optional software."

Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 

Offline rdl

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3667
  • Country: us
If you go poke around on Tesla forums you will see that no one really knows which way it works and apparently even Tesla doesn't seem to know (if you believe what people quote them as saying in emails and phone conversations).
 

Offline eti

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 1801
  • Country: gb
  • MOD: a.k.a Unlokia, glossywhite, iamwhoiam etc
Only a showoff or a mug buys Tesla. Virtue signalling is at its peak right now, no one is content unless you're vegan and driving an electric car. Sheesh. Idiocy has also peaked.
 
The following users thanked this post: amyk

Offline SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14893
  • Country: fr
Keep in mind a license is NOT ownership. It's just a limited right, under a number of clauses, to use something. Pretty different.
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2387
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Tesla are using the same DRM model as many other tech companies, e.g. Amazon Kindle. If you "buy" a book on Kindle, you get considerably less rights than with a physical book. You can't transfer your Kindle license to another person, and Amazon can disable Kindles remotely. Being old school, I consider this outrageous, and no one in their right mind would buy into such a scheme. But millions do, and seem mostly happy with it, apart from the odd few who find out the hard way.

Hence the reason why as much as possible I find electronic versions of files that I can store locally and use without special software, whether it be PDF, MP3, FLAC, MP4, and every other type of sound/video/text/graphic media I can think of without DRM. All electronic pay-per-copy distribution schemes today have DRM built in to some degree to restrict piracy, but once you own the copy you are stuck to the particular device or platform forever. If something ever happens you lose it all. There should be a way to allow you to make local copies of your own media downloads that are watermarked with your name all over it, so that if you share it with anyone or it gets out on the web, they know who leaked it. That should hopefully restrict people from sharing stuff they buy. But on the other hand, if someone got a hand on your computer or hacked your account, they could grab all your media and put into a public folder for everyone in the world to download, and it would look like you did it and get you in trouble. Double-edged sword I guess.

I see a couple of possible solutions to this Tesla-Dealer-Buyer menage-trois screw-up. Either the dealer refund $8000 to the buyer since they sold a car which is now no longer as described, or Tesla reinstates the $8000 worth of features to the buyer (for public relations purposes) and then slams the dealer with an $8000 bill or refuse to hand over any more cars to them. Or the owner will have to sue either Tesla, the Dealer or both and try to recoup the money (perhaps they split the difference... not sure exactly how much but I figure Tesla will probably take the bigger hit). There is probably something in the fine-print though for software that Tesla has the right to turn off or change things whenever they feel like and so they can probably legally wriggle their way out of this mess. However, it will be a public-relations nightmare and so Tesla is better off just reinstating the software and making sure they don't make this mistake again.
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com LBRY: https://lbry.tv/@winegaming:b Bandcamp Music Link
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Keep in mind a license is NOT ownership. It's just a limited right, under a number of clauses, to use something. Pretty different.
The point is that Tesla is selling licences, not whether they can legally do this or not. It's indicative of a while different model which so far has never been in favour of the renter. You'll never be sure the car you start in the morning is the same car you left in the driveway last night. Thousands of dollars could have vapourized without the thing having moved. Remember how Adobe clients in certain countries initially got swindled out of their subscription fees thanks to the US government changing the rules on them? Now it can be done to your car too.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20904030/adobe-venezuela-photoshop-behance-us-sanctions
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 11:22:26 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7547
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Oh, OK, I get it now. It's not a car, it's a phone! And the autopilot is an app! Yes, now it all makes sense!
 :palm:

And remember, same as cloud based software, should someday your bad luck strikes, and by the order of "other" country's leader, that doesn't like your country anymore, then while you're driving in the middle of no where, suddenly your car engine just stopped and will never can be started again, maybe until your country's change the political direction.  :-DD  -> The Fact & Proof
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 09:10:58 am by BravoV »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2699
  • Country: tr
They can also turn your steering wheel, floor the gas pedal, and disable the brakes, all OTA... :scared:
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7547
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
They can also turn your steering wheel, floor the gas pedal, and disable the brakes, all OTA... :scared:

Do you mean, turning your car into weapon ? Especially the car has advanced AI that can recognize vital and valuable military targets/objects, and of course where they're located.  >:D

Offline grumpydoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2906
  • Country: gb
i rather not have to pay a 3rd party it's still WAY efficient  time wise to have your own and ownership cost less...
every 10,000 miles in a uber would cost about $30,000
  it cost me  about $2800 including,maintenance,fuel,insurance and reg..

 owning a car is still cheaper   :-//
You are assuming that the cost would be similar to modern day Uber - where most of the cost is paying the driver, rather than the actual cost of the journey.

Also you are forgetting depreciation - and 28c a mile seems low for running costs TBH, though some of that might be that you guys still pay a ludicrously low price for gas.

Finally fewer and fewer people actually own cars anyway, financing has moved towards contract hire deals where you never own the vehicle - offer pay-by-ride at the right price and people will see the benefit of not having to give a car house room, feed it with fuel and/or electricity, get it serviced regularly, find a parking space at each end of the journey etc etc.



 

Online tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12040
  • Country: ch
Only a showoff or a mug buys Tesla. Virtue signalling is at its peak right now, no one is content unless you're vegan and driving an electric car. Sheesh. Idiocy has also peaked.
I guess it escaped your notice that Teslas are some of the very fastest street-legal cars in existence (as in acceleration, not maximum speed)? Lots of people buy them because they’re fun to drive, even if they could afford a more expensive (but poorer performing) brand of car.

For some people, there are factors in buying a car that aren’t economy, virtue signaling,vanity, etc. Performance, quality, comfort, utility, and personal aesthetic preferences are just some. Nobody cares about all aspects, and not everyone will assign the same importance to different factors as you do.

Me, I have never been the kind of person to show off through my car. But I understand that others do, and that’s OK!
 

Online Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7001
  • Country: ca
Finally fewer and fewer people actually own cars anyway
I did not notice that.... Each house in my neighbourhood has cars parked on the driveways, some have 2 and some have 3. My closest neighbours are a family of 4 adults, they have 4 cars. As to me i do not see myself calling Uber every time i need to go buy some grocceries . It is the freedom to move which people like and want.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14893
  • Country: fr
Keep in mind a license is NOT ownership. It's just a limited right, under a number of clauses, to use something. Pretty different.
The point is that Tesla is selling licences, not whether they can legally do this or not.

Everybody is selling licenses these days. I don't see the link with ownership.

A license is again NOT ownership. You don't "own" a license. You're granted one, with contractual clauses. True ownership usually doesn't have any clause; once you own something, it's yours forever until you pass ownership to someone else. In that respect, a license is closer to renting than to ownership.

Is licensing a proper model for cars, and for hardware devices in general? Probably not. Is it legal? So far, I think so. It's just a contract. You accept it or you don't. If you buy a Tesla car with some parts that are licensed to you (which means you don't "own" those parts), you are warned when you sign. Of course if those licensed parts are *essential* to the use of the bought item, then you could reasonably sue if you stop being licensed for any reason. But if those parts are "accessories", then I don't think you'd really have any ground to sue. You just accept it when you sign. And in the case of resold used cars, it's the responsibility of the reseller to warn you that some licensed parts are or are not transferable. So for the OP's case, there is likely ground to sue - probably for wrong description of the good.

Of course it's a landmine.

Note that we're mainly talking about (embedded) software here, but with electric cars, for the time being, you will NEVER be sure you can keep using the car for as long as you keep maintaining it. Batteries are the first culprit. You're totally tied to the vendor. When you batteries die, if the vendor doesn't exist anymore, you're basically screwed, all the more that there is no standard that I know of so far, so you can't just replace them with equivalent parts. If electric vehicles are getting more pervasive, this is likely to change - we'll probably start seeing standards and laws to protect the consumers - but for now, you definitely never really OWN an electric car in the true sense. You just own the hardware of the car (usually except the batteries), and nothing much else. So whether this is for the batteries or for software licensing reasons, the car can just eventually become a pile of dead shit - even if it's in perfect condition.

 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 17303
  • Country: lv
I guess it escaped your notice that Teslas are some of the very fastest street-legal cars in existence (as in acceleration, not maximum speed)?
Model 3 performance can do 0-60 mph (0-95.5 kmh) in <3 seconds (3.2 advertised), top speed 162 mph (261 km/h).
Long range AWD 0-60 mph in 3.9s, top speed 233 kmh.
Standard Range Plus (which is the cheapest) 0-60 mph in 5.3s, top speed 225kmh
They were a bit less quick a year ago, but since then there were 2 software updates each increasing performance a bit.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 04:14:48 pm by wraper »
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27366
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
i rather not have to pay a 3rd party it's still WAY efficient  time wise to have your own and ownership cost less...
every 10,000 miles in a uber would cost about $30,000
  it cost me  about $2800 including,maintenance,fuel,insurance and reg..

 owning a car is still cheaper   :-//
You are assuming that the cost would be similar to modern day Uber - where most of the cost is paying the driver, rather than the actual cost of the journey.

Also you are forgetting depreciation - and 28c a mile seems low for running costs TBH, though some of that might be that you guys still pay a ludicrously low price for gas.
28ct per mile (16 euroct / km) is not out of the ordinary. I'm around the 17euroct to 18euroct /km mark myself. It all comes to buying a car which is cheap to maintain (reliable engine and cheap suspension parts).
Quote
Finally fewer and fewer people actually own cars anyway, financing has moved towards contract hire deals where you never own the vehicle
Better put some numbers on this. I think this shift is caused by people who would previously 'buy' a car and borrow the money from the car dealer. Since the credit-crunch rules for loans have become much stricter so it is likely car dealers don't want the hassle of handling credit applications. A private lease construction is subject to much less rules.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 04:40:29 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1799
  • Country: us
Anyway, give it 25 years or so and no-one will own a car; there will be a fleet of self-driving cars and you you summon one for the individual journey that you wish to make. Way more efficient than everyone owning a car (or more than one) and it being parked, unused, 95% of the time.
Offtopic: I doubt that will happen. Owning a (second hand) car which doesn't depreciate like crazy will always be cheaper to own even if it sits idle 95% of the time instead of renting.
Agreed. Our cars spend probably 97.5% of the time idle (avg 6K miles per year on one and 4K mi/yr on the other). One is a 2005 Honda bought in 2012. For 40K miles, we’ve put about $4K in gas, $300 in oil changes, $1200 in outsourced repairs, $500 in tires, $400 in parts for DIY repairs, paid $4K in insurance, paid a few hundred for registrations and inspections, and it’s probably worth $4K less than we paid. 40K miles around $15K in expenses. $0.37/mi all in.

No way are we going to use Uber every time we need to go somewhere, even if it was only $0.40/mi, let alone a significant multiple of that!
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
I like owning a car because it's a toy I can tinker with, fix it up, customize it to my liking, I want to own things, I don't rent anything.

That said, I struggle to think of any car made in the last 15 years that I would want if it were offered to me for free. The last 10 years especially, they seem to be in a race to design the most hideously ugly thing possible while also making it boring to drive. Modern cars just have no soul, they're all designed according to the same algorithms and they're all the same.
 
The following users thanked this post: amyk, SiliconWizard


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf