'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[GlennSprigg]

Video removed. This is not the place for such things.

??  Wasn't 'MY' video!!! Was asking a question to someone quoting "self defense" !!

[GlennSprigg]

Oh, and I'm pretty sure this thread is going to go off the rail if it hasn't done so already, so please keep it fairly on-topic. No obvious segues into BLM etc please.

Than shut the whole thread down, instead of just liking 'your' posts!

[EEVblog]

Oh, and I'm pretty sure this thread is going to go off the rail if it hasn't done so already, so please keep it fairly on-topic. No obvious segues into BLM etc please.

Than shut the whole thread down, instead of just liking 'your' posts!

Or how about I just go through all 22 pages and delete any inflammatory off-topic stuff?

[SilverSolder]

Every techie knows what this means - you don't even have to read the article (overly long, you know the examples better than the author does), but here it is if you want:  https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/

I've been against this in the past because I thought it would create confusion.  Now that I think about it, if we can all (100% of the industry - think IEEE directive) agree on the copypasta, this might be a good and feasible thing.

I propose changing MASTER to PRIMARY and SLAVE to SECONDARY.  Since MASTER and SLAVE are words that are not otherwise often used in technology, probably updating documents is as simple as doing a replace on these two words, with a quick check.  Induhvidual engineers will probably not adopt the new words orally until there is a new generation, but who cares.  Update the documentation, wait for the results, less irritated people.

What do you think?

This patriarchal thinking has definitely infested technology.  What gives a CPU the right lord it over the memory chips, for example??

I don't agree with the PRIMARY/SECONDARY nomenclature.  Think about how crushing it is for a child the first time they realize they are SECONDARY to some bigger concern, that there is something bigger than them...   Is the word "SECONDARY" really appropriate to use in a work environment, reminding everyone they are not the boss??

I suggest:  COMRADE for both units instead.  Each device takes turns leading the dance, or perhaps they vote on each transaction.  We can call the system as a whole PARADISE! 

[bd139]

In Soviet Russia, CPU arbitrates bus.

[Simon]

We've managed to be fairly on topic or at least not flame waring so far.

If we can't use a same word in a different context people better start learning a whole new load of words.

[magic]

It occurred to me there may be a problem with master/slave devices on primary/secondary IDE buses

Quite, changing the term does nothing and is worse as it just ignores the problem which is worse. Just brushing it under the carpet and renaming things is causing the perpetuation of the problem and makes those pretending to solve the problem incompetent and they are just causing more harm. But instead they get a pat on the back for "fixing" it by changing a name.

The problem is, as I said before, that there are people in America who just don't want to integrate and would rather favor segregation. A large part of American politics is a nonstop dick waving contest between those and the integrationists and all those seemingly bullshit little things are taken in that context by them. Allowing "the nazis" to get their way in any controversy is what would be considered "a regress" and "brushing problems under the carpet". Once the meme has been created that master/slave is racist, it does become racist, simply because the racists will find ways to use it for trolling if nothing else.

If you try to naively take American politics at face value you will go insane.
I completely expect that they will do it; say hello to "initiating peers" on I2C

Oh, and the person complaining almost always isn't part of that group they are complaining the word is offending.

No shortage of group members who will gladly agree to be represented by the "allies", man.

[tom66]

I suggest:  COMRADE for both units instead.  Each device takes turns leading the dance, or perhaps they vote on each transaction.  We can call the system as a whole PARADISE! 

COMRADE, I have never heard of such a more fantastic idea.  We shall ensure all devices upon the bus are equal.  Should a conflict occur, we shall resolve any such conflict with peaceful negotiations around the address bus table.   Failing that, nuclear war is the only alternative.

[DimitriP]

When a minority can impose its views on the majority, isn't that a perversion of democracy?

There is word for that:
ter·ror·ism

/ˈterəˌrizəm/

noun: terrorism

    the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
    "the fight against terrorism"

You mean like the USA these last 3 or 4 decades?

The list is long and distinguished, how far back do you want to go ?

There are always interests to be served. And there are always people willing to join the cause from a semi-innocent semi-naive point of view not realizing they are really serving a purpose that ideology is only used to control them , keep them  busy , in servitude of whatever those "interests" are.

[james_s]

I likely have aspergers, I would like to be called special for the particular skills i have but instead it has a negative connotation and signals that i am inferior.

I know I do, I was diagnosed about 20 years ago and it was a revelation, suddenly it made sense why so many people seem as though they live in a different reality than that which I perceive. Ironically on multiple occasions I've had people try to tell me that something is offensive to autistic people. I think the Onion's autistic reporter is hilarious because his behavior is almost exactly what goes on inside my head before my educated mind goes "wait, don't say that, people will think you're weird, respond this way instead" or something of that nature, yet I've seen a lot of people claim those skits are offensive, people who themselves are not autistic.

There are so many people out there who seem obsessed with white-knighting for groups of people they themselves do not even belong to and it drives me nuts.

[Simon]

It seems just calling things what hey are can be offensive. I have heard of a children, very young child being chastised for saying that he friend was the colour of chocolate. I mean I see the logic and the child was too young to understand "hangups".

[SilverSolder]

I have always hung out with "specials", instinctively.  Nothing bores me more than straight down the highway people doing everything "right".

[james_s]

Recently it was discussed at work that asking someone "where are you from" could be offensive and it was suggested instead to ask them "where is it that you call home". I'm genuinely confused because to me these statements mean exactly the same thing  except the former is nice and direct and the latter feels convoluted and unnatural, almost like trying to talk like Yoda. How the hell is it offensive to ask someone where they're from? We're all from somewhere, I enjoy hearing the stories of people who have immigrated here and learning about the place they grew up in.

Then there's the term "People Of Color", is that not the same as saying "Colored People"? The latter is considered offensive, the former to me sounds the same as the latter so I don't use either.

[themadhippy]

No better an example of the liberal lefty do gooders missing the point entirely,banned by the BBC because it might offend

[PlainName]

"where are you from" could be offensive

I guess it might be interpreted as being 'where were you born?' whereas 'where is it that you call home' can only reasonably be interpreted very narrowly as where are they living right now (except... they might be living away from home...).

It's quite subtle and would require the person being questioned to be offended before considering what the question means, IMO. I would say that anyone not assuming it meant 'where is home' is expecting to be put upon.

Except... I am white. Suppose I was an African American - if someone asked me that I might well think they are asking my birth country since it wouldn't be obvious (not that being white makes it any simpler, just the assumptions are fewer) and I might have been asked that specifically before.

[vodka]

Then there's the term "People Of Color", is that not the same as saying "Colored People"? The latter is considered offensive, the former to me sounds the same as the latter so I don't use either.

If the USA  have many troubles with the term "People Of Color", get back to Spanish Caste system.


https://blogs.publico.es/strambotic/2018/10/sistema-castas-nuevo-mundo/

[tom66]

I know I do, I was diagnosed about 20 years ago and it was a revelation, suddenly it made sense why so many people seem as though they live in a different reality than that which I perceive. Ironically on multiple occasions I've had people try to tell me that something is offensive to autistic people. I think the Onion's autistic reporter is hilarious because his behavior is almost exactly what goes on inside my head before my educated mind goes "wait, don't say that, people will think you're weird, respond this way instead" or something of that nature, yet I've seen a lot of people claim those skits are offensive, people who themselves are not autistic.

There are so many people out there who seem obsessed with white-knighting for groups of people they themselves do not even belong to and it drives me nuts.

I am on the spectrum and the Onion skits are bloody hilarious. I have too had people say that autistic comedy is not funny.  Fuck off.  It is (usually) hilarious.  I don't care if you think it is offensive because of your pre-conceived notions of what humour should be for people who aren't neurotypical. 

[Simon]

i can see the difference between where are you from and where do you call home but i would see "where do you call home" as a roudabout way of asking the same question but giving me two options.

When i lived in Italy i was once asked as I crossed door by kids i did not even know "where had I come from", i completely misinterpreted and said "the station" I thought maybe as the only student in the entire school to walk the 1.5 miles from the station they were baffled at never seeing me on the bus. But the retort that I was "being clever" told me several hours later after the confusing exchange that they meant my nationality, I mean i thought that was all round the school already and why would they ask such a silly question.

[JPortici]

The worst is when you aren't even using the word to insult someone and you are using it in some other innocent context, but someone gets offended by it anyway

wait... like Master and Slave as in SPI communication
Gasp!

this whole debate is retarded to begin with.
I could say a lot of things that would be of course misinterpreted.. your quote here will suffice because in essence, this is what it is.

[Simon]

The worst is when you aren't even using the word to insult someone and you are using it in some other innocent context, but someone gets offended by it anyway

wait... like Master and Slave as in SPI communication
Gasp!

this whole debate is retarded to begin with.
I could say a lot of things that would be of course misinterpreted.. your quote here will suffice because in essence, this is what it is.

Basically if you look at any word you will find it has multiple contexts of interpretation. If you want guarantee of never upsetting anyone then every context needs it's own words meaning a huge expansion of the language with a ton of new terms to learn.

[james_s]

I am on the spectrum and the Onion skits are bloody hilarious. I have too had people say that autistic comedy is not funny.  Fuck off.  It is (usually) hilarious.  I don't care if you think it is offensive because of your pre-conceived notions of what humour should be for people who aren't neurotypical.

My favorite is the one where he's covering the accident where a train hit and killed a pedestrian. "The train is ok!!" 

I find it very annoying though that they imply that the conductor is driving the train rather than an engineer and the guy is dressed right out of the late 1800's steam era.

Whenever I hear about a car accident, plane crash, etc, the first thing that pops into my head is to worry about whether the vehicle is damaged and if it can be repaired. Then it occurs to me that I should probably at least ask if anybody was hurt.

[james_s]

"where are you from" could be offensive

I guess it might be interpreted as being 'where were you born?' whereas 'where is it that you call home' can only reasonably be interpreted very narrowly as where are they living right now (except... they might be living away from home...).

It's quite subtle and would require the person being questioned to be offended before considering what the question means, IMO. I would say that anyone not assuming it meant 'where is home' is expecting to be put upon.

Except... I am white. Suppose I was an African American - if someone asked me that I might well think they are asking my birth country since it wouldn't be obvious (not that being white makes it any simpler, just the assumptions are fewer) and I might have been asked that specifically before.

The question usually comes to my mind when someone has an accent I can't quite place, it has nothing to do with their skin color. If a black, hispanic, Indian, etc person speaks fluent american english with no obvious accent then I'll normally assume they grew up here. If they have a thick accent, even if they're white and look essentially the same as I do, I'm curious to know where they're from. It's not a judgemental thing, it's simple curiosity. Smalltalk is difficult enough without all these new rules.

[EEVblog]

Oh, and the person complaining almost always isn't part of that group they are complaining the word is offending.

No shortage of group members who will gladly agree to be represented by the "allies", man.

And in my personal experience there are more who don't want to be "represented" by the "allies".
I won't mention the words in question here as that will derail things, but usually the only people who contact me to complain are the "allies". They are even so bold as the email me saying "I've got a friend who watches you who would be deeply offended by that term". Well, don't be surprised when you get a stern email reply telling you to go away and have that person contact me directly if they have a problem.
I've had vastly more people from those actual groups contact me and tell me to not modify my language and that these "allies" don't represent them, than I've had "allies" complaining.

[EEVblog]

The worst is when you aren't even using the word to insult someone and you are using it in some other innocent context, but someone gets offended by it anyway

wait... like Master and Slave as in SPI communication
Gasp!

Yup. The argument is just so dumb it doesn't even warrant discussion in a normal functioning society.

this whole debate is retarded to begin with.

Careful, you'll get people complaining about that term! Seriously, I get those complaints, even though they know full well that I'm using the term in the other perfectly ligitiment context talking about an idea or a thing etc.

I don't mind people getting upset or offended at something I said, that's ok. But once I explain to them the context and the intention, that should be that, end of discussion. But sadly in the vast majority of cases that doesn't happen, these people are simply incapable of understanding nuance and context. And it is impossible to hold any rational conversation with them.

Basically if you look at any word you will find it has multiple contexts of interpretation. If you want guarantee of never upsetting anyone then every context needs it's own words meaning a huge expansion of the language with a ton of new terms to learn.

And even then the community (technical or otherwise) gets filled with multiple terms causing mass confusion. You can't just ban or stop using a term, it's impossible and completely impractical.
And then you end up with the extremists who will want existing textbooks rewritten because they contain the wrong term. It's practical insanity of the highest order. You can't have a well functioning society if you let this stuff take hold, it will infest everything.
Sorry, but those who are offended by out of context words will have to just suck it and deal with it and get on with life. Unfortunately those who are most bothered by this, it does seem to be a huge part of their social life, and for some reason they almost always on Twitter. These people need a different hobby than just finding offence in everything.

[rsjsouza]

My biggest problem with these apparently mild changes of words is when the books start to be burned. After all, a lot is already being done to erase history and, as Brett Weinstein mentioned in the latest Joe Rogan Podcast, this is a very sophisticated technique to change and convert your mind: instead of brute force, you start agreeing with the "perpetrator" in a few common ground topucs and, through the use of fallacy and false equivalency, you end up far long in the doctrine.