Incandescent light bulbs to make a comeback?

[Zero999]

This is the key thing where the wider public and policy makers don't properly understand science. Bulbs in the UK get most of their use on dark winter days when the central heating is turned on. In that case the heat produced by the bulbs does not go to waste and they become electric heaters that reduce your gas bill a little. They effectively are 100% efficient under those circumstances.

But it's both cheaper and more environmentally friendly to heat ones home with gas, than electricity, unless you have a heat pump. The tiny saving on ones gas bill is more than outweighed by the huge increase on the electricity bill.

The only time when there's a valid argument for incandescent lighting/resistive heating is where most of the electricity is generated by hydroelectric power and wind, otherwise it's very wasteful.

[MikeW]

I don't know why anyone would use anything other than long twin-tube fluoro battens in work areas that need bright lighting.

There are LED replacements for exactly this type of luminaire that are more efficient, with no maintenance and that last longer with equal light distribution, temperature and CRI. They are also much better at tolerating being dimmed for sensor based control. They don't need aging burn-in too. The light output does drop eventually but that can be corrected with the programming of the driver, they also won't pink like a fluorescent lamp, hum or striate.

It will cost slightly more out of the gate but there will be a ROI for most people. There are a few situations where the cheaper initial cost of the fluorescent will probably outweigh it's drawbacks, but the number is shrinking as LED costs come down.

[tom66]

We have GU10 LED downlights - £4 each from Wickes and they work perfect, instant on, as bright as 35W halogen but using only 4W.
The previous landlord installed crappy £1.50 GU10 bulbs - LED array ones, instead of these single-chip ones, and they all died within about 3 months. Mostly flickering on and off as LEDs failed intermittent o/c.

[MrSlack]

We have GU10 LED downlights - £4 each from Wickes and they work perfect, instant on, as bright as 35W halogen but using only 4W.
The previous landlord installed crappy £1.50 GU10 bulbs - LED array ones, instead of these single-chip ones, and they all died within about 3 months. Mostly flickering on and off as LEDs failed intermittent o/c.

Those crappy GU10 bulbs are a nuisance. Better than the Poundland ones though which my father bought: http://www.poundland.co.uk/v-tac-led-round-bulb-6w

[mikeselectricstuff]

There are some really decent LED bulbs around now, even some of the the ones in Poundland are OK. There isn't really any reason to use CFLs any more.

There are plenty that are as bright as similar-sized incandescents.

Check out BigClive's channel for plenty of LED bulb teardowns : https://www.youtube.com/user/bigclivedotcom
This one is particularly interesting as it has novel approaches to cooling and light distribution ( could be a bit of a dust magnet though)  :

I was browsing Aliexpress and ordered a few interesting-looking ones, inclusing what claims to be a 65W ES LED bulb - should be amusing!

Probably the biggest remaining issue is compatibility with dimmers and automatic switches.

[PedroDaGr8]

This technology is NOT new. This was invented by GE back in the 90s, they were called HIR bulbs. They were most famous for their automotive uses where Toshiba took over produciton. It gave you about 2/3 the output of HID but with the color spectrum of Halogen. While these bulbs apparently do it BETTER but it isn't a novel idea. Just saw the GE still makes HIR bulbs for home use, Toshiba only took over the automotive use.



The HIR bulbs had a special film which reflected the IR back on the filament giving the bulb much greater output. You can faintly see the translucence of the film in the above image.

[Zero999]

How long will theses new incandescent lights last for? And how much do they cost? If they don't last any longer than halogen lights and aren't much cheaper then LEDs, then there's not much point.

[mikeselectricstuff]

And by the time they hit the market, how much further will LED lamps have progressed..?

[CatalinaWOW]

It's like everyone has forgotten fluorescent tube batten lighting exists.
Apart from bathrooms and cupboards, where instant-on needs exclude everything but LEDs or filament bulbs, I don't know why anyone would use anything other than long twin-tube fluoro battens in work areas that need bright lighting.

I have many of these fixtures in my shops and other spots.  I will keep replacing tubes in them as long as they are available (which is changing).  But I will never replace a ballast when it gets noisy or stops working altogether.  Which they all do sooner or later.  They will be replaced with LED versions.  The LED lights have already demonstrated comparable life, and potentially will be much better, and as others have noted, they work when it gets cold.  I don't heat most of my shops and while it doesn't get that cold (always above freezing), many of the lights don't work until a significant warm up period, several minutes or more, has passed.

I won't miss the flickers near the end of bulb life, the buzzing of a ballast that is signaling that it is getting tired, the constant hunt for an appropriate color temperature, or paying a disposal fee.  Yeah, even in the profligate US I have to pay a fee to dispose of the 8 foot tubes.   There is free recycling for the smaller, 4 foot consumer tubes.

[Macbeth]

Yeah, even in the profligate US I have to pay a fee to dispose of the 8 foot tubes.   There is free recycling for the smaller, 4 foot consumer tubes.

Snap them in half? 

[Mechanical Menace]

It's like everyone has forgotten fluorescent tube batten lighting exists.
Apart from bathrooms and cupboards, where instant-on needs exclude everything but LEDs or filament bulbs, I don't know why anyone would use anything other than long twin-tube fluoro battens in work areas that need bright lighting.

I replaced all my fluorescent tube lighting with LED bulbs. For me a 10 watt LED seems just as bright as a 36 watt fluorescent tube*. Reducing power consumption by almost 3/4, instant on, and less annoying flicker are good reasons to choose LEDs over fluorescents.

*Just in case it's relevant I don't see why people like the yellow of incandescents so avoid the LEDs that're meant to replicate that look.

[rdl]

I consider the color of "daylight" LEDs and most fluorescents to be too garish for use in most parts of the home. However, it would be nice to have more of a choice. All the LED bulbs I've seen only seem to be offered in "warm white" (2500-2700K) or "daylight" (5000K or higher). I think something like 3200-3500K might be good for most living areas and 4100 to 4800K would be nice to have also.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It's like everyone has forgotten fluorescent tube batten lighting exists.
Apart from bathrooms and cupboards, where instant-on needs exclude everything but LEDs or filament bulbs, I don't know why anyone would use anything other than long twin-tube fluoro battens in work areas that need bright lighting.

I replaced the tubes with LED tubes in all my fluorescents ages ago - quality does vary - got some really nice ones with aluminium extrusion body, and some real cheapo all-plastic ones that sag in the middle.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Yeah, even in the profligate US I have to pay a fee to dispose of the 8 foot tubes.   There is free recycling for the smaller, 4 foot consumer tubes.

Which of course is just going to mean people will smash & dump them, releasing the mercury. 
They go pretty well when thrown javelin-style at a brick wall...

[chris_leyson]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the EMC implications, incandescent = no EMC, compact flurorescent and LED = EMC because of the electronic ballast or the switching down converter. The amount of conducted and radiated RF will of course vary depending on the topology of the ballast or switching converter. It's probably not a lot compared to all of the other equipment with switched mode PSUs.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the EMC implications, incandescent = no EMC, compact flurorescent and LED = EMC because of the electronic ballast or the switching down converter. The amount of conducted and radiated RF will of course vary depending on the topology of the ballast or switching converter. It's probably not a lot compared to all of the other equipment with switched mode PSUs.

I think you mean EMI, not EM Compatibility....

I'm surprised that capacitive droppers aren't used more widely, especially as we're seeing a trend towards quite high LED string voltages - some of the bulb products are using 3-die LEDs.

[Gyro]

It's like everyone has forgotten fluorescent tube batten lighting exists.

They are pretty useless in cold weather. I had them in my garage, once it gets down much below zero all they did was light very dimly if at all. I replaced them with 5000k LEDs much better, instant on and work even on the coldest days.

I know there are fluorescent tubes for colder weather but they are also more expensive if you can even find them locally.

Sorry I'm going to display some trainspotter type knowledge (gleaned from an old Philips lighting book), The low temperature ones are Argon filled rather than Krypton filled. I have a nice bright 8 foot 125W one in the garage that's still running strong after 20 years (it gets cycled a lot too) which comes on at full brightness even when it's near freezing. I have one spare tube, but after that I guess I'll have upgrade to whatever lighting technology is popular at the time.

Actually, in another 20+ years I probably won't need to bother!

[ciccio]

For stairway timed lighting in my condo I've been obliged to install halogens (the ones with an halogen bulb inside a larger standard incandescent bulb).
I needed immediate turn-on even in cold climates (stairs are not heated), and CFL were unsuitable. (Obvious here incandescent are illegal).
Their lifespan was horrible: less than 6 months (incandescent lasted two or more years).
In my apartment I had to switch to CFLs, and I don't like them: their lifespan is casual: I remember when the first ones on the market were specified for X hours of life, and I usually got a 10th of this. Now they are specified for N switch-on, and sometimes I get a 10t of this...
I used to open the socket to investigate the failure: it was always some cheap electronic component...

I think that the electronics should be separated from the bulb: to illuminate the car park of the condo we have external fixtures by Philips, that use a replaceable fluorescent bulb driven by a circuit inside the fixture. One 18 W and two 9 W. I installed them more than 20 years ago, and they are still there (but now I cannot find them in Philips on-line catalog). Bulbs were replaced 2 or 3 times (I mean they lasted more than 6 years, about 10 hours (environ) on every single day).
On the side of the building there are other two fixture using standard CFL. Lamps last not more than 2 years, some less than one. They are powered in parallel with the others...
By having the electronics inside the fixture the cost of the bulb may be reduced, and a better engineered and performing electronics may be used (obviously the initial cost may be higher, but this is a one-off expense)

[mikeselectricstuff]

For stairway timed lighting in my condo I've been obliged to install halogens (the ones with an halogen bulb inside a larger standard incandescent bulb).
I needed immediate turn-on even in cold climates (stairs are not heated), and CFL were unsuitable. (Obvious here incandescent are illegal).
Their lifespan was horrible: less than 6 months (incandescent lasted two or more years).

Sounds like LEDs would be the deal answer there then (assuming the low current draw doesn't mess with the timer switch). I wonder if the electrolytics used in the PSUs have issues at very low temps. 

Just been browsing Aliexpress & seeing how ridiculously cheap white LEDs have become - 2000 for under $10, and many types around the 1-2 cents each mark at 1000x
I can't see any fancy nano-tech competing anytime soon

[chris_leyson]

Thanks Mike, strictly speaking it should have been EMI not EMC but I was thinking of the "compatability" issues with analog radio.

Transients on the mains seem to slowly kill off incandescent tungnsen filament light bulbs. A week or two later, after the transient, you've got to replace a few light bulbs. Maybe a hot spot on the filalment just got too hot for too long and that changes the metallurgy of the filialment and it turns into a fuse, I'm only guessing, but it seems plausable.

If you could reflect all of the IR energy emitted by the filament back onto the filament and maybe eventually get 40% claimed efficiency, it's all down to how you manufacture the filament in the first place. A 40% efficient light bulb with a tungsten filament is still going to have the same life span as a conventional tungsten filament light bulb.

[steve30]

It's like everyone has forgotten fluorescent tube batten lighting exists.
Apart from bathrooms and cupboards, where instant-on needs exclude everything but LEDs or filament bulbs, I don't know why anyone would use anything other than long twin-tube fluoro battens in work areas that need bright lighting.

Most annoying place for a slow-start CCFL: a bathroom with the light and ventilation fan on the same switch plate. Switch light on, walk into dark room. An interminable age later the noise of the fan spinning up tells you that was the wrong switch. Go back and try again.

I rather like high quality fluorescent tubes. Currently in my combined bedroom/lab, I'm using 2x 36W 4000k >90 CRI tubes to light the room (with a dimmable electronic ballast), and I have a couple of flat LED panels to light my desk (like what Dave has demonstrated). I also have a halogen desk lamp, and a nice 2700K LED module handy. That way I can configure the lighting depending on what I want at a particular time.

In the loft and the garage, I have 2x 56W fluorescent tubes. Very nice. I'm surprised that so many people don't seem to like the glare-free nature of lamps like this.

Of course I do use fillament lamps from time to time. Their simplicity can be quite useful.

[SteveyG]

I don't know why anyone would use anything other than long twin-tube fluoro battens in work areas that need bright lighting.

There are LED replacements for exactly this type of luminaire that are more efficient, with no maintenance and that last longer with equal light distribution, temperature and CRI. They are also much better at tolerating being dimmed for sensor based control. They don't need aging burn-in too. The light output does drop eventually but that can be corrected with the programming of the driver, they also won't pink like a fluorescent lamp, hum or striate.

It will cost slightly more out of the gate but there will be a ROI for most people. There are a few situations where the cheaper initial cost of the fluorescent will probably outweigh it's drawbacks, but the number is shrinking as LED costs come down.

Can you show me any that are as good as a decent quality T5 tube? I'm yet to find anything that matches the high CRI, price and distribution of light

[MikeW]

I don't know why anyone would use anything other than long twin-tube fluoro battens in work areas that need bright lighting.

There are LED replacements for exactly this type of luminaire that are more efficient, with no maintenance and that last longer with equal light distribution, temperature and CRI. They are also much better at tolerating being dimmed for sensor based control. They don't need aging burn-in too. The light output does drop eventually but that can be corrected with the programming of the driver, they also won't pink like a fluorescent lamp, hum or striate.

It will cost slightly more out of the gate but there will be a ROI for most people. There are a few situations where the cheaper initial cost of the fluorescent will probably outweigh it's drawbacks, but the number is shrinking as LED costs come down.

Can you show me any that are as good as a decent quality T5 tube? I'm yet to find anything that matches the high CRI, price and distribution of light

This may sound like a bit of a copout but I'm reluctant to say where I work (because then I can't complain about them!) and I wouldn't want to recommend a competitors product either.

However I can show you a photometric comparison between a fluorescent batten and an LED replacement. Initially the fluorescent looks wider but note the scaling numbers on the graph and you will see the LED is actually superior. Also there is a lot of essentially wasted up-light with the fluorescent.

The LEDs we use are capable of CRI 90 but normally we will sell at 84.

http://www.lumileds.com/products/mid-power-leds/luxeon-3535l

You are correct about price. Most of the time a fluorescent batten will be cheaper than the LED equivalent, but will be more expensive to run. We work with major companies refitting huge premises and sites to LED alternatives, and ROI is achieved in sometimes as little as two years, although 4-5 is more normal. The larger the company then generally the quicker the return due to economy of scale.

So for one dude looking to light his garage, fluorescents probably still are the better choice, much bigger than that and LEDs quickly become the superior option.

[SteveyG]

Do you have something that compares a CAT 5 luminaire? I've tried a few LED replacements in my lab, but the T5HO 90CRI tubes are superior in all cases. The difference in energy consumption is minimal with HF control gear - You should get in excess of 5000lm from a 54W T5HO and measured output from some XM-L2s is about 1000lm at 3A, so around 10.5W.

[dannyf]

"I think that the electronics should be separated from the bulb: "

Changing lighting fixture is far more expensive than changing light bulbs. That risk is amplified at time of changing and uncertain technology,like now. I for one don't think led lighting is mature enough, or perform well enough for me to replace my incandescent bulbs with year around.

The warm and soft glow of incandescent bulbs is just a pleasure to look at, especially in the winter.