Electronics whiz Elon Musk is now the world's richest person

[VK3DRB]

Musk is "worth" $190 billion. The arts/economics degree electronics whiz kid is smart. Most qualified engineers would take roughly 130,000 YEARS (if they lived and worked that long assuming $75K per annum salary) to make what he made just in one day yesterday; and 2.5 MILLION YEARS to earn his total net "worth".

Is he worth it?

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/elon-musk-ousts-jeff-bezos-as-world-s-richest-person-20210108-p56slw.html

[tom66]

He's not "worth" $190 billion.  He holds TSLA stock that is worth that much but if he tried to liquidate it all and live like a billionaire with no involvement in any of his companies, he'd probably be worth half as much or even less, because there's no way he'd be able to offload so much stock.

Now whether TSLA is worth $700+ bn given VW is only worth a third of that and sells 100x more cars,  that is an interesting question!!

[VK3DRB]

Net worth includes stock, bank balances, real estate, cash, gold etc. Having that much stock just means it is less liquidity and more susceptibility to volatility, unlike government bonds. Hence some of these super-rich are quietly offloading smaller portions of their stock; an indication that the market is nearing its peak or even overheating.

By the way, VW don't sell 100X Tesla; try only 20X according to 2019 figures and about half of the sales are to the Chinese market. Volkswagon is a company convicted of fraud on global scale which is the biggest reason it is worth a lot less. The history of the stock price supports that argument.

[tszaboo]

Tesla's P/E is 1638. At least not negative, like previous years.
SP500 average is 35.
Keep pumping that balloon, for sure it's not gonna burst.

[S. Petrukhin]

VK3DRB, are you ready to kiss Musk's ass? Probably, it would be even more useful to this topic in the forum. 

[tooki]

Musk is "worth" $190 billion. The arts/economics degree electronics whiz kid is smart. Most qualified engineers would take roughly 130,000 YEARS (if they lived and worked that long assuming $75K per annum salary) to make what he made just in one day yesterday; and 2.5 MILLION YEARS to earn his total net "worth".

Is he worth it?

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/elon-musk-ousts-jeff-bezos-as-world-s-richest-person-20210108-p56slw.html

Is he an electronics whiz by any definition?! I think his talent is in being visionary and tenacious, not in having any particular engineering chops.

[Bud]

Who the hell called that pot smoking head Electronics wiz?

[VK3DRB]

Musk's cars are full of electronics and advanced software. It is under his direction it all came to be. However I bet you he does not even know how a 555 timer works. Nor does he need to. "Electronics whiz" is a term used by the media. We had an expert at self promotion here who made a fortune under the guise of "electronics whiz", who was really just an importer and retailer, creating a hugely successful electronics chain. His name was Dick Smith. He was in reality no electronics whiz, but the media thought otherwise. His self-promotion work only inferred he knew a lot about electronics.

Musk being a pot smoker has not affected his ability to become the richest person in the world. Barrack Obama was a pot smoker. And so is Britain's richest entertainer, Paul McCartney.

[VK3DRB]

VK3DRB, are you ready to kiss Musk's ass? Probably, it would be even more useful to this topic in the forum. 

No, not at all. Musk's stinginess is surpassed by Bezos who upped his lowest paid workers form $11 per hour to $15 per hour.
The big issue is inequality. Its root cause is greed.

[S. Petrukhin]

VK3DRB, are you ready to kiss Musk's ass? Probably, it would be even more useful to this topic in the forum. 

No, not at all. Musk's stinginess is surpassed by Bezos who upped his lowest paid workers form $11 per hour to $15 per hour.
The big issue is inequality. Its root cause is greed.

I do not know the history of the appearance of capital at Musk, I have not heard that he created something unique and popular in the garage with his own small money, which raised capital. I think this is just a successful huckster, like everyone else, who has successfully guessed from the probability theory where the gold mine lies. Hundreds or thousands of them were wrong, and he was lucky.

I also had a time when money suddenly fell on me almost out of thin air, I can say from my own experience: you feel like a great sage at once, I forget that this is a matter of chance. Life brought me back to earth.

However, in today's World it's a bit better than the rest - he spends money on production, spends money not on quick profits bought/sold, but on engineering work and I'm happy for my colleagues that they have the opportunity. 

[engrguy42]

It's one thing to show the world you can get them what they want for cheap like Sam Walton did with WalMart...

But if you can convince the world that you have NEW TECHNOLOGY that can SAVE THE WORLD, the sky is the limit.

People desperately want to believe that all NEW TECHNOLOGY is awesome, by definition, and will save the world. It makes them feel good. Renewables, electric vehicles, dancing robots, AI...

We'll see in 20 years or so.

[tom66]

Musk has teams of talented engineers, but the guy himself is a visionary and a bit of an asshole.  I think it's a lot of credit, more than deserved, to say that Musk is a genius.  Steve Jobs was a similar type of person.   Visionary and very motivational, although he was more art-oriented.  He didn't design the iPhone though, as others often say, instead his engineers did.  They are the ones who should get the most credit.

[T3sl4co1l]

Net worth includes stock, bank balances, real estate, cash, gold etc. Having that much stock just means it is less liquidity and more susceptibility to volatility, unlike government bonds. Hence some of these super-rich are quietly offloading smaller portions of their stock; an indication that the market is nearing its peak or even overheating.

By the way, VW don't sell 100X Tesla; try only 20X according to 2019 figures and about half of the sales are to the Chinese market. Volkswagon is a company convicted of fraud on global scale which is the biggest reason it is worth a lot less. The history of the stock price supports that argument.

This is a commonly quoted excuse.  The counterargument I've seen notes that, the market cap of the US stock market is ~$40T.  The market can bear it.  Hell, it can bear every billionaire selling every stock they own, over say a five or ten year period.  That's fast, compared to say government-scale rates of exchange.

And yes, liquidating it would affect the value of at least the stock in question, which is why when they normally, and regularly, sell off that stock, it is done on a publicly announced schedule.  Like, I mean, they're not stupid, they're not going to saturate the market by dumping stocks.  Which is illegal or something anyway.  Come on now, y'know?

Musk has teams of talented engineers, but the guy himself is a visionary and a bit of an asshole.  I think it's a lot of credit, more than deserved, to say that Musk is a genius.  Steve Jobs was a similar type of person.   Visionary and very motivational, although he was more art-oriented.  He didn't design the iPhone though, as others often say, instead his engineers did.  They are the ones who should get the most credit.

As any good capitalist -- he got his start in apartheid SA from family wealth, and maintains it through exploitation of his many laborers.  You're welcome to read whatever political slant from that you like -- just understand, if you celebrate these people, then you are also celebrating all the hardships they have created, and profited from.  If that makes you uncomfortable, maybe just don't do that, then.

Tim

[wraper]

As any good capitalist -- he got his start in apartheid SA from family wealth, and maintains it through exploitation of his many laborers.  You're welcome to read whatever political slant from that you like -- just understand, if you celebrate these people, then you are also celebrating all the hardships they have created, and profited from.  If that makes you uncomfortable, maybe just don't do that, then.

Bullshit. He started his first business with no money whatsoever. He slept at his "office" because he could not afford an apartment. Also those "exploited" ended apartheid and turned country into a shithole ridden with crime including widespread rape and murder. They literally live worse than when they were oppressed.

[T3sl4co1l]

As any good capitalist -- he got his start in apartheid SA from family wealth, and maintains it through exploitation of his many laborers.  You're welcome to read whatever political slant from that you like -- just understand, if you celebrate these people, then you are also celebrating all the hardships they have created, and profited from.  If that makes you uncomfortable, maybe just don't do that, then.

Bullshit. He started his first business with no money whatsoever. He slept at his "office" because he could not afford an apartment. Also those "exploited" ended apartheid and turned country into a shithole ridden with crime including widespread rape and murder. They literally live worse than when they were oppressed.

I won't dip my toe in the apartheid denial, but your other fact appears to be in error:
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-elon-musk-net-worth-2017-10#four-years-later-in-1999-they-sold-zip2-for-307-million-earning-musk-22-million-he-invested-more-than-half-of-his-earnings-to-cofound-xcom-an-online-banking-service-9

There's also the story of selling emeralds in New York City, not exactly an ordinary teenager's experience.  And his family owning substantial stock in an emerald mine, at that point in history makes it rather hard to separate from the institution in question.

Perhaps these aren't actual fact, either (Musk denies the emerald story; but he obviously has a vested interest in doing so).  It seems there are few primary sources, among the top hits on this subject.  I don't particularly care to spend more time on the subject, but I would be interested in reading primary sources if others are.

And besides this one example, one doesn't need to go far to find other unseemly figures.  VW was mentioned earlier in this thread; along with BMW and others, during the 1930s and 40s, they were, well, literal Nazis.  I mean, it's not even Godwin's law, that's simply a historical fact.  They knew what was going on, and along with everyone else, went along with it, because, well, what are you going to do?  Big businesses can claim a great many things in press releases, but the one and only thing they always agree on is money.  Among their priorities, morals and human well-being are coincidental at best.

Tim

[wraper]

I won't dip my toe in the apartheid denial, but your other fact appears to be in error:
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-elon-musk-net-worth-2017-10#four-years-later-in-1999-they-sold-zip2-for-307-million-earning-musk-22-million-he-invested-more-than-half-of-his-earnings-to-cofound-xcom-an-online-banking-service-9

What fact? His first business was Zip2 which started from nothing. And I do not deny apartheid. What I say is that cure turned out to be worse than illness.

There's also the story of selling emeralds in New York City, not exactly an ordinary teenager's experience.  And his family owning substantial stock in an emerald mine, at that point in history makes it rather hard to separate from the institution in question.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1211054942192119808?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1211054942192119808%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.insidehook.com%2Farticle%2Fhistory%2Ferrol-musk-elon-father-myths

He didn’t own an emerald mine & I worked my way through college, ending up ~$100k in student debt. I couldn’t even afford a 2nd PC at Zip2, so programmed at night & website only worked during day. Where is this bs coming from?

From your own link:

Just before his 18th birthday, Musk moved to Canada and worked a series of hard labor jobs, including shoveling grain, cutting logs, and eventually cleaning out the boiler room in a lumber mill for $18 an hour — an impressive wage in 1989.

[coppercone2]

thats a nice little puff piece. learn about motor drives in your dads precision masonry equipment at the emerald factory. adds up for me

take the back breaking jobs in Canada because.. you are used to it from installing old ass 50lb 10kW inverters at the emerald factory. then decide to put a conveyor belt on the road. Make your truck look like.. a nicely cut emerald.

I think it is hard to deny. Everyone kept saying the Tesla truck is a polygon, a glitch car.. but no... its just jewelry for rich guys

Doesn't he do shit studded in diamonds also? The MO leads to a match people. Pretty sure I saw some diamond studded stuff on his website.

[Halcyon]

Hardly a whiz kid. Business man? Sure. Whether he is a good one is yet to be seen. The cars his company produces are average at best. However he can prove himself with SpaceX and Starlink.

[Halcyon]

The cars his company produces are average at best.

Sales says otherwise. His cars are just like iPhones. Some love them, some hate them, but from an engineering perspective (not scientific exploration, but not penny pinching either), it is the best in terms of balancing between reliable existing technology and innovations on new features that require little to no fundamental research.

In other words, predators of existing technology, explorers of uncharted applications.

Sales of Tesla is insignificant in Australia (and many other parts of the world). Tesla is facing very stiff competition from "real" car makers in the EV segment. Also, Tesla sells their cars at a loss. They make their money from "green" certificates in the US.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Who the hell called that pot smoking head Electronics wiz?

Musk being a pot smoker has not affected his ability to become the richest person in the world. Barrack Obama was a pot smoker. And so is Britain's richest entertainer, Paul McCartney.

For as annoying as Musk is to some people, at least he isn't an annoying, stereotypical pot head: "everyone's down on me, man."

I don't get the contempt he receives for his ability to turn a bit of dough into the loaves and fishes. Envy is dangerous emotion. Jealously is a curse. Both things mis-targeted only lead down a path to self harm.

[Ed.Kloonk]

As any good capitalist -- he got his start in apartheid SA from family wealth, and maintains it through exploitation of his many laborers.  You're welcome to read whatever political slant from that you like -- just understand, if you celebrate these people, then you are also celebrating all the hardships they have created, and profited from.  If that makes you uncomfortable, maybe just don't do that, then.

Bullshit. He started his first business with no money whatsoever. He slept at his "office" because he could not afford an apartment. Also those "exploited" ended apartheid and turned country into a shithole ridden with crime including widespread rape and murder. They literally live worse than when they were oppressed.

A bit of both. I think having the Canadian citizenship was a springboard. As for him being a dick, that comes from him having a shitty father. These things combined made him prosper if not well liked.

[hans]

The cars his company produces are average at best.

Sales says otherwise. His cars are just like iPhones. Some love them, some hate them, but from an engineering perspective (not scientific exploration, but not penny pinching either), it is the best in terms of balancing between reliable existing technology and innovations on new features that require little to no fundamental research.

In other words, predators of existing technology, explorers of uncharted applications.

For crying out loud, let's not call Tesla cars reliable. And please also let's not call all of their inventions a pioneering innovation. It's the same crap like Apple. Apple products also break down and that's not surprising, because anything can. But coincidentally Apple products are designed in such a dick move way, that you can't repair them because there are no parts. They are designed in such a way, that if you attempt to repair them, you're likely to break something because someone can't afford to use a screw but must use adhesives. They are designed in such a way, that if you swap 2 non-security critical parts on 2 identical products, they won't "pair" due to serial numbers and remain broken.

Apple and Tesla think this is a good way of doing business with their customers. Their customers buy into a brand and hype, much rather than a product, and a large part of that is the CEO of the company. Meanwhile, customers are ripped off once their product does break down, because they would have to buy into the manufacturers own monopoly on repair and servicing.
I'm not saying that this means their product is by definition bad. In fact, I think that Apple and Tesla do offer compelling options for many use cases. And also, this whole right to repair thing is arguably *FINE* if this is how *THEY* want to do business. The problem is the whole industry adapts these techniques which extrapolate things for consumers. Do consumers really want smartphones that are 0.5mm thinner with glued on glass back panels that break the moment you bump it into a car door? Alright, I heard you like a glass panel, let's make it so you cannot replace the battery anymore that will die down in a couple years time anyway.

Coming back to the Tesla quality and reliability thing. They are not outstanding. The number of defects per car is substantially higher than any other car brand: https://thelastdriverlicenseholder.com/2020/06/25/j-d-power-blasts-tesla-quality/
https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2017/11/29/tesla-model-3-production-defects-fremont-tsla.html

You could argue that it's in the same order of magnitude as other luxury car brands such as Audi or Volvo, which similarly have many extra buttons that can break down. But Tesla doesn't even seem to get the basic stuff right like the panels. How can anyone at quality control think that a 50k$+ semi-luxury car with huge panel gaps should go to a customer. HOW?! You won't even get to see such a defect on a VW Up or Citroen C1, which even we Europeans we would literally call a shopping trolley car, and probably most will beat the crap out of it.

And then I think, well what's so innovate about Tesla cars? Sure to pack the batteries in a huge floor is very novel and perhaps a pioneering point, which allowed to really pack alot of kWh into their electric cars at the time. But then, what else is up there?

The interior design? I have heard build quality is not that great compared to the germans.
Big centralized screen? Please give me a button to change the heater or wipers, please.
Is Tesla the first manufacturer to bring humor into their cars again? Like "ludicrous" driving setting or fancy show modes? Well, maybe they have a branding and marketing department after all, because it's all a bunch of bollocks.
Their autonomous driving option? I don't have any reason to be that impressed yet, it's still a 1st-gen design and will likely be ancient in a few years time.

Other decisions from Tesla are irresponsible at best, either for their customers or their employees. So as you can see, I'm not really a fan of them, and for sure I really can't understand how their stock is so overvalued.

[ogden]

Tesla sells their cars at a loss. They make their money from "green" certificates in the US.

Really? Could you please provide links to resources supporting your claims? I know that Subsidies for Tesla finished at the end of 2019. TSLA reports do not show any "sell at loss" either.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Tesla sells their cars at a loss. They make their money from "green" certificates in the US.

Really? Could you please provide links to resources supporting your claims? I know that Subsidies for Tesla finished at the end of 2019. TSLA reports do not show any "sell at loss" either.

One thing to remember is that although the initial green tech initiatives are ending their course, other car manufactures are subject to the mandating of higher taxes on cars that require fossil fuel to run. Cities such as L.A.

All other car manufactures are subject to this tariff in proportion to the number of cars sold that are smog spewers. In this regard, Tesla owners don't pay extra just to own the car.

[Halcyon]

The cars his company produces are average at best.

Sales says otherwise. His cars are just like iPhones. Some love them, some hate them, but from an engineering perspective (not scientific exploration, but not penny pinching either), it is the best in terms of balancing between reliable existing technology and innovations on new features that require little to no fundamental research.

In other words, predators of existing technology, explorers of uncharted applications.

It's the same crap like Apple

Yep! Exactly.