Electroboom: How Right IS Veritasium?! Don't Electrons Push Each Other??

[iMo]

..
So. The movement of mass is the fundamental source of all electrical phenomenon and everything else is secondary effects of said movement.
..

Prove the theory true and the Nobel Prize is yours..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_unified_field_theories

What I am saying isn't a theory ( it is well established fact ).
And it isn't a unifying field theory of everything.
Likewise, nobody has ever produced a unifying field theory and I doubt that it is even possible.
It could be just as futile as trying to create a perpetual energy machine.

Could you somehow document that fact? A couple of examples?
I am really pretty interested to know more about it, not joking..

[PlainName]

I am not sure how you manage to reconcile these:

But an electric field can't exist without an initial movement of charged particles in order to establish a potential difference.

and

pushes against the next electron via their negative electric fields

It's a kind of chicken and egg situation: you can't have a field until something moves, but that movement is initiated by a field?

[gnuarm]

I am not sure how you manage to reconcile these:

But an electric field can't exist without an initial movement of charged particles in order to establish a potential difference.

How about the fact that this statement is wrong.  Static electric fields exist, period.  No movement required.  The moment the wire is connected to the battery, there is a non-zero electric field in the wire.

and

pushes against the next electron via their negative electric fields

It's a kind of chicken and egg situation: you can't have a field until something moves, but that movement is initiated by a field?

Someone is getting their fields crossed (pun intended).

[m k]

Statistical effect of positions of electrons and statistical effect of interactions of photons.

Static electric field is not in a void.

[electrodacus]

Literally nothing you have ever said has demonstrated in any way that electricity actually flows outside a wire as waves or  that fields outside a wire are the primary source of energy.
They aren't. The are a secondary effect of moving charged particles with mass inside a conductor.
In my opinion. The underlying truth is actually that low IQ adults and children love watching pop science crap on youtube produced by smoothbrains like Veritasium who's only talent is in
Getting millions of views and maximizing his own paycheck. He is a joke and you are also a joke if you think he cares or even thinks deeply about any of the concepts he talks about.

I appreciate the effort you put in your replays but the people you are arguing with will barely read one or to phrases and ignore the rest.

Simplifying complex concepts so that it can be presented to a larger public is likely not a bad thing but that is only valid if it is correct.
It seems to me that understanding energy is a problem for many and related to that understanding what energy storage is.

[PlainName]

It seems to me that understanding energy is a problem for many and related to that understanding what energy storage is.

I am avidly awaiting your announcement of how some energy storage thing (aside from the obvious batteries) works in the circuits you're now ignoring.

[electrodacus]

What I am saying isn't a theory ( it is well established fact ).
And it isn't a unifying field theory of everything.
Likewise, nobody has ever produced a unifying field theory and I doubt that it is even possible.
It could be just as futile as trying to create a perpetual energy machine.

Perpetual motion machine means only eliminating friction and at microscale that is possible as a current flow (electron stream) can be sustained forever (as far as we can measure) in a superconductor.
So a closed loop of superconductor wire in which you induce an electrical current will be maintained forever (at least we can not measure any reduction in current).
But if you check Veritasium video about the Faster than wind direct downwind vehicle you will see him basically claiming  not perpetual motion but much worse overunity.
He claims vehicle can drive forever faster than wind in the same direction which will mean overunity but he can not understand even that is what he is saying.
It is worse that an university physics professor lost 10K as it was unable to explain how the vehicle works.
I tried to explain that vehicle has an energy storage device (the propeller) that creates a pressure differential (air is a compressible fluid) and that stored energy is what allows vehicle to just temporarily exceed wind speed.
They just made incomplete tests and drawn wrong conclusions about what they were seeing and even changed well known equations to fit what they think they saw.
That video, especially the second one where he doubled down by showing a University professor incapable to understand how it works lose the argument and bet gave me PTSD.
I just imagined smart young people failing to get in to university because the solved correctly this problem and the professors failing them.
And yes this exact problem was present in US at least in physics competitions.
You will think that access to all this information will make the society smarter overall but it seems that wrong information travels and spreads much faster and people do not have the time to think.

[PlainName]

He claims vehicle can drive forever faster than wind in the same direction which will mean overunity

That's where you're going wrong - it is not overunity. There is sufficient power available (the wind, after all, has a lot more power than you need to push something along), but the usual problem is harnessing it. With a sail your problem is that as you approach wind speed there is no wind blowing the sail. That's all you can see, and you don't understand (to use your favourite phrase) that the propeller allows there to be some air movement even at wind speed (because the prop moves across the wind ).

The energy storage thing is just as fake and cobblers as infinite energy machines.

[electrodacus]

I am avidly awaiting your announcement of how some energy storage thing (aside from the obvious batteries) works in the circuits you're now ignoring.

Is a capacitor an energy storage device or not ?  A battery converts chemical reaction in to electricity and some batteries are rechargeable meaning you can reverse the chemical reaction by supplying energy to the battery.


There is a good reason I insist in using a charged capacitor as the energy source in the circuit as understanding the capacitor is vital in understanding how electricity works.

Two neutrally charged parallel metal plates (say copper) with same number of free electrons as the number of atoms will represent a discharged capacitor.
There will be no electric field between the two plates.

Take a wire and connect those two plates together. Nothing will charge as the wire also say made of copper is also neutral has as many free electrons as the two capacitor plates.
 
Then get a permanent magnet and move it next to the wire. This will make the electrons move in one direction so one of the plates will have a deficit of electrons while the other plate an excess and since electrons have moved you will feel that force opposing the magnet while you are moving it so you spend some energy.
Part of this energy you introduced in the circuit will end up as heat (electromagnetic radiation) due to wire having resistance and some will be stored in the capacitor.
But as soon as you stopped moving the magnet the stored energy will be released as electrons now move in the opposite direction through the wire part of that energy ending up as heat and part reverse charging the capacitor but less energy as some was radiated as heat due to resistance. There may be a few cycles back and forth until all energy will be radiated as heat (electromagnetic radiation in the infrared spectrum so broad spectrum around a few THz).

If you move the magnet as before you stop disconnect the wire then the capacitor will remain charged and now you will have excess electrons on one plate and deficit of electrons on the opposite plate.
This excess electrons will really like to get on the other side to be united with their atoms thus this electric field that tries to pull the plates closer together.
The capacitor will stay charged so you have stored electrical energy and in order to use that energy you need a wire connecting the two plates.

Say you have the charged capacitor now and you connect a high resistance wire so that it takes say one hour for all electrons to move from one plate to the other.
If I add another similar wire just next to this one it takes just half the time so half an hour. Why will that be if electric field is the same ?

[electrodacus]

He claims vehicle can drive forever faster than wind in the same direction which will mean overunity

That's where you're going wrong - it is not overunity. There is sufficient power available (the wind, after all, has a lot more power than you need to push something along), but the usual problem is harnessing it. With a sail your problem is that as you approach wind speed there is no wind blowing the sail. That's all you can see, and you don't understand (to use your favourite phrase) that the propeller allows there to be some air movement even at wind speed (because the prop moves across the wind ).

The energy storage thing is just as fake and cobblers as infinite energy machines.

Any wind powered vehicle driving directly downwind will have this amount of wind power available to accelerate or do whatever it wants with.

P_w = 0.5 * air density * area * (wind speed - vehicle speed)³

This above equation is true for any vehicle design and for any vehicle speed.
The equation shows that when vehicle speed equals wind speed available wind power is zero and if vehicle is above wind speed the power is negative meaning it will decelerate instead of accelerate the vehicle.

I can make a sail vehicle exceed wind speed same way as blackbird is doing by adding an energy storage device (the blackbird already has one build in and that is the propeller).
If I add a capacitor connected to an electrical generator that takes energy from the wheel to store in this capacitor while sail vehicle moves well below wind speed I can then at some point use the energy stored in the capacitor to accelerate the vehicle and exceed wind speed  but obviously for only as long as I have stored energy. When capacitor is discharged I can no longer accelerate and vehicle will start to slow down well below wind speed same as Blackbird or that treadmill model.

[PlainName]

I am avidly awaiting your announcement of how some energy storage thing (aside from the obvious batteries) works in the circuits you're now ignoring.

Is a capacitor an energy storage device or not ?  A battery converts chemical reaction in to electricity and some batteries are rechargeable meaning you can reverse the chemical reaction by supplying energy to the battery.


There is a good reason I insist in using a charged capacitor as the energy source in the circuit as understanding the capacitor is vital in understanding how electricity works.

Two neutrally charged parallel metal plates (say copper) with same number of free electrons as the number of atoms will represent a discharged capacitor.
There will be no electric field between the two plates.

Take a wire and connect those two plates together. Nothing will charge as the wire also say made of copper is also neutral has as many free electrons as the two capacitor plates.
 
Then get a permanent magnet and move it next to the wire. This will make the electrons move in one direction so one of the plates will have a deficit of electrons while the other plate an excess and since electrons have moved you will feel that force opposing the magnet while you are moving it so you spend some energy.
Part of this energy you introduced in the circuit will end up as heat (electromagnetic radiation) due to wire having resistance and some will be stored in the capacitor.
But as soon as you stopped moving the magnet the stored energy will be released as electrons now move in the opposite direction through the wire part of that energy ending up as heat and part reverse charging the capacitor but less energy as some was radiated as heat due to resistance. There may be a few cycles back and forth until all energy will be radiated as heat (electromagnetic radiation in the infrared spectrum so broad spectrum around a few THz).

If you move the magnet as before you stop disconnect the wire then the capacitor will remain charged and now you will have excess electrons on one plate and deficit of electrons on the opposite plate.
This excess electrons will really like to get on the other side to be united with their atoms thus this electric field that tries to pull the plates closer together.
The capacitor will stay charged so you have stored electrical energy and in order to use that energy you need a wire connecting the two plates.

Say you have the charged capacitor now and you connect a high resistance wire so that it takes say one hour for all electrons to move from one plate to the other.
If I add another similar wire just next to this one it takes just half the time so half an hour. Why will that be if electric field is the same ?

Wow 

I am agog to know how all this stuff about capacitors and magical storage devices relates to the circuits posted earlier. For reference, they are attached.

Remember that the question posed was: what's the difference with the top wire, where in the circuit that burns 1W it is passing 1A, and in the circuit burning 2W it is passing, ah, 1A. Voltage is the same in both cases. But, clearly, you think 'energy storage' is the answer to everything!

[PlainName]

The equation shows that ...

Has it never occurred to you that you might be either using the wrong equation, or the right one in the wrong situation?

[electrodacus]

Wow 

I am agog to know how all this stuff about capacitors and magical storage devices relates to the circuits posted earlier. For reference, they are attached.

Remember that the question posed was: what's the difference with the top wire, where in the circuit that burns 1W it is passing 1A, and in the circuit burning 2W it is passing, ah, 1A. Voltage is the same in both cases. But, clearly, you think 'energy storage' is the answer to everything!

You can replace the battery with a charged capacitor. Capacitors are not magic.
Understanding energy and energy storage will be the answer to many things you consider magic now.

How is the voltage the same in both cases ?
You have 1A and 1V in the left side (duplicated) and you have 1A and 2V on the right side.

[electrodacus]

The equation shows that ...

Has it never occurred to you that you might be either using the wrong equation, or the right one in the wrong situation?

It is the correct equation for that situation.  The situation is a wind only powered vehicle driving directly downwind.
Of course the equation is for idea case where there is no friction.
So that is the absolute best case for the amount of wind power available to a direct downwind vehicle.
The equation is valid at any vehicle speed so the same equation is valid below, at and above wind speed.

[gnuarm]

The equation shows that ...

Has it never occurred to you that you might be either using the wrong equation, or the right one in the wrong situation?

It is the correct equation for that situation.  ...

Just when you thought it was safe!

[electrodacus]

Just when you thought it was safe!

I do not understand your comment.
I designed wind turbines enough to be sure that equation is correct. My main hobby and job is energy generation and energy storage.
Wind is a stream of air molecules and the way energy is transferred is by collision with vehicle body thus the area in the equation.
That is why a vehicle traveling at wind speed in the exact same direction has access to zero wind power and when it gets above the air molecules will hit the vehicle from the opposite direction slowing it down.
But if you store energy as blackbird is doing while you are below wind speed then acceleration rate is lower as part of the energy is stored instead of using it to accelerate the vehicle then use that stored energy to accelerate the vehicle for above wind speed for a limited amount of time proportional with the amount of stored energy. In case of Blackbird stored energy is about 6Wh (half the energy in a battery smartphone) as that is what is needed to get to the speed in that documented test they done.   

[PlainName]

How is the voltage the same in both cases ?
You have 1A and 1V in the left side (duplicated) and you have 1A and 2V on the right side.

I think you don't understand ohm's law.

On the right there are two 1V batteries, and two 1R resistors - that is 1V across each resistor (as you can see from the simulation). So the top half of that circuit has the same voltage and current and resistance values as a single circuit from the left.

[PlainName]

You can replace the battery with a charged capacitor. Capacitors are not magic.

You clearly don't understand the difference between batteries and capacitors!

You cannot replace one with the other. You could replace the battery with a PSU (and perhaps the circuits should, but then you would argue about the invisible supply having some magic value, probably), but not with a capacitor.

[PlainName]

The equation shows that ...

Has it never occurred to you that you might be either using the wrong equation, or the right one in the wrong situation?

It is the correct equation for that situation.  The situation is a wind only powered vehicle driving directly downwind.

That's assuming a sail or similar, isn't it?

[electrodacus]

How is the voltage the same in both cases ?
You have 1A and 1V in the left side (duplicated) and you have 1A and 2V on the right side.

I think you don't understand ohm's law.

On the right there are two 1V batteries, and two 1R resistors - that is 1V across each resistor (as you can see from the simulation). So the top half of that circuit has the same voltage and current and resistance values as a single circuit from the left.

What is the difference between two 1V batteries in series and a single 2V battery? Also what is the difference between two 1 Ohm resistors in series and a single 2Ohm resistor ?
You have two completely separate loops with 1V battery and 1Ohm resistor on the left and a single loop that you can simplify as a 2V battery and a 2 Ohm resistor.

[electrodacus]

You can replace the battery with a charged capacitor. Capacitors are not magic.

You clearly don't understand the difference between batteries and capacitors!

You cannot replace one with the other. You could replace the battery with a PSU (and perhaps the circuits should, but then you would argue about the invisible supply having some magic value, probably), but not with a capacitor.

What ?
Why can I not replace a battery with a charged capacitor ?

[Naej]

Yes. Also, the energy is transferred in the conductors and only light is outside of them. Electrons with high potential carry a lot of energy.

An electron at high potential has as much energy as any other electron moving at the same speed speed.

No. Kinetic energy is not the only energy.

In the schematic attached, when the ground connection is moved the electrons in the upper loop are not 'unburdened' of the energy they were carrying. They don't speed up. They don't slow down for them nothing changes.

Does the location of the ground connection make any difference to the heat in the resistor? It should, if the potential energy of each electron changes by 1000x.

No it should not. Difference of energy matters, not energy itself.

[PlainName]

How is the voltage the same in both cases ?
You have 1A and 1V in the left side (duplicated) and you have 1A and 2V on the right side.

I think you don't understand ohm's law.

On the right there are two 1V batteries, and two 1R resistors - that is 1V across each resistor (as you can see from the simulation). So the top half of that circuit has the same voltage and current and resistance values as a single circuit from the left.

Well, that's what we're asking you. On the one hand there is 1A along that top wire and the entire circuit burns 1W. On the other hand there is 1A along that top wire and the circuit burns 2W. In both cases the voltage drop across it is the same (i.e. 1V battery - 1R.1A, or 2V battery - 2R.1A). So what IS the difference?

Remember that you say the energy travels in the wire, so what is different in that wire?

What is the difference between two 1V batteries in series and a single 2V battery? Also what is the difference between two 1 Ohm resistors in series and a single 2Ohm resistor ?
You have two completely separate loops with 1V battery and 1Ohm resistor on the left and a single loop that you can simplify as a 2V battery and a 2 Ohm resistor.
[/quote]

[PlainName]

What ?
Why can I not replace a battery with a charged capacitor ?

For one, as soon as you start using the capacitor energy the voltage drops and then you'll start demanding a graph of voltage over time and wibbling on about how the energy is depleting and... well, you have form, let's put it like that.

For another the battey is going last a lot longer and give a steady output. That's all the reason the battery is there - it is a constant source. It's not ACTUALLY, a battery, but the circuit diagram doesn't have a symbol for a electrodacus-proof source, so that's the nearest we have.

And, no. There is negligible internal resistance in this source, so forget about diverting to a discussion of that.

[electrodacus]

That's assuming a sail or similar, isn't it?

The equation I wrote a few post earlier for a direct downwind vehicle applies to all vehicle designs.
You likely are confusing power with energy.

Why do you think my equation will be valid for a sail powered vehicle driving directly down wind but not for one that has a propeller installed and connected to wheels ?
Equation will not change based on vehicle design. Only the value of the variables inside the equation will change but equation will be the same.

The explanation Derek gave to that vehicle is the same that people give to those motor generator devices where a motor is connected to a generator and generator produces energy that powers the motor and motor then rotates the generator and not only that works like a perpetuum mobile but  it generates extra energy to even light up an incandescent lamp.

A lot of people buy those things thinking.  Same as many people accepted the flawed explanation from Veritasium.
I will normally not get involved as not all people can be experts in all field but when large science communicators are involved (not just Derek but also the older generation Neil Tyson) and University level Physics professors then I can no longer ignore it as I may need a doctor at some point or even buy a vehicle from people with that level of understanding of physics thus impact is way to serious to ignore.