Covid 19 virus

[Cerebus]

When supposed hospital staff talks about a virus living one can't help to be very skeptical. How do we know this isn't one of the thousands of seemingly official chain mails being sent around?

We can quibble about whether is virus is 'alive' or not, but in material intended for general consumption I don't have a problem with people using the terminology and would have a problem if people used convoluted language to get around calling a virus 'live' rather than aiming for comprehension by all and sundry.

Where I get a bit antsy about this is:

The virus hates heat and dies if it is exposed to temperatures greater than 27 degrees C.

Really? So what's all the fuss about then? I doubt any bit of my body worth infecting is below 27C - how then does it survive in humans? According to my IR thermometer I don't have a single bit of exposed skin below 30ºC - I ought to be able to kill it by touching it (which we know is rubbish). When I see rubbish like that either somebody has been criminally careless and transposed 27ºC with 72ºC or alternatively it casts the whole 'official' origin into doubt.

and

The sun’s UV rays kill the virus and the vitamin D and zinc are good for you.

Waaay too folksy for a considered bit of writing by a medic. And "and the vitamin D and zinc are good for you"? Both ungrammatical and a change of subject to "good for you" in the same sentence about killing the virus. Smacks of 'secretary' level education. A medic would only advocate vitamin D and zinc supplementation in cases of likely deficiency (the former unlikely in summer).

There's other stuff in there that sounds like folk advice rather than medical advice mixed up with sound medical advice of the kind that you could just pick up by listening. I suspect a round robin email from someone in the hospital rather than official hospital guidance for staff. If its bona fides prove true, that would be worrying.

[DrG]

In my inbox from a mate:
/----/

When supposed hospital staff talks about a virus living one can't help to be very skeptical. How do we know this isn't one of the thousands of seemingly official chain mails being sent around?

It has already been identified as such - https://metronorth.health.qld.gov.au/news/fake-email-covid-19

[DrG]

[maginnovision]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/dr-deborah-birx-warns-about-coronavirus-numbers-that-will-hit-u-s-next-week

Next week will be bad as far as the numbers go in the US and then we should hopefully see some slow down.

Should... Hopefully... Yes, all we have right now is optimism no guarantees.

[maginnovision]

It's funny seeing people getting so scared of the virus, while positive quarantine results have been seen in not only China, but also Korea, Japan, Singapore and recently Italy.
I've just got discharged from a hospital that also treats COVID19 patients for a tonsillectomy procedure. Not that I wanted it to be done at this time, but the rapid onset of bad tonsil and lymph node inflammation just drove me mad.
For the past week, I had half an hour of walk twice a day around the hospital, passing the fever clinic entrance every lap.
Just use your PPE, stay away from the crowds, and wash your hands more frequently that usual. Then there's no worries.
FYI, I'm in Shenzhen, one of the largest port city in China handling tens of thousands of incoming people from worldwide, Hong Kong and through Hong Kong.
If everyone stays away from the crowds for two weeks, there would not be a need to vaccines and monthly long economy pauses.

I'm not scared, just concerned. I'm a mid thirties male on oxycodone for a current lung issue and I have severe asthma. If I caught it I very well may not make it. Besides, I'm stuck at home with nothing to do. I can't even play games because sitting is too stressful on my lungs right now. So... Keep an eye on the news of the day which is almost exclusively Coronavirus.

[Muttley Snickers]

Your phone can now get the coronavirus as well.   

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-29/federal-government-launches-coronavirus-australia-app/12100680

[edy]

Some of the most successful coronavirus containment results are in countries using "authoritarian" technologies and strategies to track people. From immediate drastic quarantines to cellphone GPS tracking to contact-tracing and massive mandatory testing. Obviously these strategies work but can be unnerving to citizens of countries that do not have experience with this level of control and a concern to all who value freedoms and privacy. Unfortunately we are balancing along a fine line here and this can set a dangerous precedent to future policies, laws and rights of citizens.

Of course we must be smart about protecting others in our community and if people all did their civic responsibilities for 2-3 weeks the virus would fizzle out.... but meanwhile because they are not, and because we are not seeing as intensive targeting of individuals and contact-tracking in certain countries, they have instead adopted "collective punishment" measurements. That, plus the fact that bordered remained open and they were slow to curtail freedoms... obviously a difficult measure to impose in a society that values freedom. Sure an authoritarian country can stop the virus faster but many open countries (like Germanyand South Korea ffor example) seem to be managing to keep number of deaths low by aggressive targeting and containment for the good of the entire population.

[vk6zgo]

When supposed hospital staff talks about a virus living one can't help to be very skeptical. How do we know this isn't one of the thousands of seemingly official chain mails being sent around?

We can quibble about whether is virus is 'alive' or not, but in material intended for general consumption I don't have a problem with people using the terminology and would have a problem if people used convoluted language to get around calling a virus 'live' rather than aiming for comprehension by all and sundry.

Where I get a bit antsy about this is:

The virus hates heat and dies if it is exposed to temperatures greater than 27 degrees C.

Really? So what's all the fuss about then? I doubt any bit of my body worth infecting is below 27C - how then does it survive in humans? According to my IR thermometer I don't have a single bit of exposed skin below 30ºC - I ought to be able to kill it by touching it (which we know is rubbish). When I see rubbish like that either somebody has been criminally careless and transposed 27ºC with 72ºC or alternatively it casts the whole 'official' origin into doubt.

and

The sun’s UV rays kill the virus and the vitamin D and zinc are good for you.

Waaay too folksy for a considered bit of writing by a medic. And "and the vitamin D and zinc are good for you"? Both ungrammatical and a change of subject to "good for you" in the same sentence about killing the virus. Smacks of 'secretary' level education. A medic would only advocate vitamin D and zinc supplementation in cases of likely deficiency (the former unlikely in summer).

There's other stuff in there that sounds like folk advice rather than medical advice mixed up with sound medical advice of the kind that you could just pick up by listening. I suspect a round robin email from someone in the hospital rather than official hospital guidance for staff. If its bona fides prove true, that would be worrying.

I've seen an earlier version, purporting to be from the UK, that urges people to "sunbake".
Whoever edited this one knew that advice wouldn't "fly" in Oz.
"How good is Melanoma?"

I've seen a lot of edited political things, over the years, which, transplanted from their home country to this one, don't make sense, & unless you are particularly thick, can be laughed off.

These "coronavirus" ones are just plain sick!

[not1xor1]

If everyone stays away from the crowds for two weeks, there would not be a need to vaccines and monthly long economy pauses.

unfortunately the needed time depends on the percentage of quarantine conforming people that in the western countries is not enough and varying wildly among the various countries and within a given country itself.

besides that 2 weeks are not enough if the virus has already got a foothold and when health service staff, law enforcement staff and other essential service provider often have no individual protection devices

anyway we can always hope for some magic cure devised by Gwyneth Palthrow 

[not1xor1]

I'm not scared, just concerned. I'm a mid thirties male on oxycodone for a current lung issue and I have severe asthma. If I caught it I very well may not make it.

Sorry to hear about that. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not being specific to anyone. Just don't understand why many otherwise perfectly healthy people being so concerned.

besides the fact that even young and healthy people have died (18, 21, 26 years old) or are severely ill, several people here have health problems (they can usually manage without too much trouble) and/or are no longer so young and/or have to take care for their parents or relatives who might even be at a higher risk

[not1xor1]

Thanks to Albania. That is a small and not so rich country and probably is seldom mentioned in the news. Anyway they are more willing to help us than other European countries.

https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it&tab=wT&sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.repubblica.it%2Festeri%2F2020%2F03%2F29%2Fnews%2Fcoronavirus_medici_albania_italia-252593099%2F

[Zero999]

If someone is idiotic enough to spit or cough on someone the person likely doesn't have much of a life to begin with. One of the people they sentenced to do jail time in the NL was a homeless person (he didn't die but is no longer homeless). Let's not forget that Covid19 is a potentially deadly decease; not something to make fun of. Especially when it involves public servants doing their best to keep the country clean and safe.

Running a red light poses a much more real danger and we don't lock people up for a year for that either. I'm not even suggesting to not do anything about such behaviour and understand that examples have to be made, it's just that we shouldn't go overboard. People are scared and emotional but that doesn't mean we should lose all common sense and proportion.

The difference is intent. He wanted to scare the police officer and the example you've provided isn't clear cut. I ran a red light yesterday because the stupid traffic light shouldn't have been red. I stopped, waited for a couple of minutes, until I noticed that all of the other junctions were clear, then preceded slowly, with caution. The same traffic light always does this: waits for ages on red, when it should be green, holding the traffic up. It's harming others by increasing pollution and CO₂ levels and needs to be reprogrammed.

That man won't be in prison for that long. He'll be released in a few months. Hardly anyone serves the full sentence in this country.

[Leo Bodnar]

Hold off with Chloroquine and its derivatives until we know more.
Few studies - most recent ones in China and France - suggest that it is useless at best and dangerous at worst.
http://www.zjujournals.com/med/EN/10.3785/j.issn.1008-9292.2020.03.03
etc.
Italians are running a clinical study at the moment.
I am following this with some interest because I have some Hydroxychloroquine and Plaquenil put away as last resort option.  It might as well end up in a rubbish bin.
Leo

Moreover it is being reported that chloroquine is actually successful because it is an ionophore of zinc, ie it increases its concentration in the cells.

[bd139]

Chloroquine is nasty shit. Even if it is effective it should be last resort. Can cause permanent cardiac damage. Also on top of that so can Covid-19 apparently. Smells like a damage amplifier.

I think I have covid-19 at the moment. Relatively mild so far but indicators are persistent cough, fever (now gone), all over aches and pains.  I’m considering most of the company I work for had Covid-19 as well as we lost approximately half of the staff during feb with same class of symptoms. I get the feeling this will turn into something slightly worse than the usual flu season in body count even if it looks bad now. Long term economic and social damage will have a higher cost to society.

In U.K. we are at 4% of a bad flu year’s body count and the age distribution is about the same. I suspect the death rate will level out soon. I may eat my hat there but it seems a sensible assertion to make.

[Leo Bodnar]

BBC NEWS just interviewed the lead of UK Hydroxychloroquine trial now.  It's ongoing. We will see soon.
Leo

[PlainName]

Please accept the official advice from Boris.

Worked for him!

Oh, wait...

[paulca]

Please accept the official advice from Boris.

Worked for him!

Oh, wait...

Oh please.  This thread had turned into a mess.  Mask-gate and now this.

[Miti]

I think I have covid-19 at the moment. Relatively mild so far but indicators are persistent cough, fever (now gone), all over aches and pains.  I’m considering most of the company I work for had Covid-19 as well as we lost approximately half of the staff during feb with same class of symptoms.

Right before Christmas our management team came sick after a meeting in the US. My boss told me that one guy was sick in the room and after few days, one by one the other participants got sick with the same symptoms; fever, muscle and joints aches, cough, chills, terrible sweating. Few days after Christmas my daughter an I got sick. I had flu few times in my life but this was different. In general flu comes with runny nose and congestion. We didn’t have any of these. Instead we had scratchy wind pipes, fever, chills, muscle and joint aches so intense that I haven’t felt before, sweating, dry cough that persisted for about a week after the fever subsided.
So does it mean that we had it. It was definitely something different than what I knew.
Is it possible that it was here long before we knew it?

[bd139]

I think I have covid-19 at the moment. Relatively mild so far but indicators are persistent cough, fever (now gone), all over aches and pains.  I’m considering most of the company I work for had Covid-19 as well as we lost approximately half of the staff during feb with same class of symptoms.

Right before Christmas our management team came sick after a meeting in the US. My boss told me that one guy was sick in the room and after few days, one by one the other participants got sick with the same symptoms; fever, muscle and joints aches, cough, chills, terrible sweating. Few days after Christmas my daughter an I got sick. I had flu few times in my life but this was different. In general flu comes with runny nose and congestion. We didn’t have any of these. Instead we had scratchy wind pipes, fever, chills, muscle and joint aches so intense that I haven’t felt before, sweating, dry cough that persisted for about a week after the fever subsided.
So does it mean that we had it. It was definitely something different than what I knew.
Is it possible that it was here long before we knew it?

Yeah this isn’t normal flu. No runny nose or congestion. Just shitty cough, fever and like I’ve been beaten with sticks. It’s horrible but 10% as bad as having chicken pox was at 28 years old. We’re all on the company Slack talking about it now and was the same for everyone. Whether or not there is a correlative or causal relationship has to be determined.

[Zero999]

Chloroquine is nasty shit. Even if it is effective it should be last resort. Can cause permanent cardiac damage. Also on top of that so can Covid-19 apparently. Smells like a damage amplifier.

Every treatment carries an associated risk. Even being put on a ventilator carries a significant risk, because it involves being sedated, administered muscle relaxants and lots of tubes being poked into various orifices.

I think I have covid-19 at the moment. Relatively mild so far but indicators are persistent cough, fever (now gone), all over aches and pains.  I’m considering most of the company I work for had Covid-19 as well as we lost approximately half of the staff during feb with same class of symptoms. I get the feeling this will turn into something slightly worse than the usual flu season in body count even if it looks bad now. Long term economic and social damage will have a higher cost to society.

In U.K. we are at 4% of a bad flu year’s body count and the age distribution is about the same. I suspect the death rate will level out soon. I may eat my hat there but it seems a sensible assertion to make.

Covid-19 is worse than flu because considerably herd immunity already exists for influenza, whilst Covid-19 is new. If the figure of 4% of a bad flu year is correct, then that's pretty bad, because the first death here was only the 5th of March, only 20 days ago and the number of new deaths has being roughly doubling every three days.

We can only keep the number of deaths down to what we'd expect from a bad flu season by strictly adhering lockdown measures imposed upon us.

[SilverSolder]

Is it possible that it [Covid-19] was here long before we knew it?

It seems possible, but a proven good antibody test doesn't actually exist yet as far as I know, so we can't actually answer that question. 

The tests that we do have (the ones used by hospitals) only show whether a patient currently has the virus, not whether they have had it in the past (which requires the non-existent antibody test).

[coppice]

Chloroquine is nasty shit. Even if it is effective it should be last resort. Can cause permanent cardiac damage. Also on top of that so can Covid-19 apparently. Smells like a damage amplifier.

Every treatment carries an associated risk. Even being put on a ventilator carries a significant risk, because it involves being sedated, administered muscle relaxants and lots of tubes being poked into various orifices.

Too many people have a poor grasp of the term "recovering from a disease", and treat it like it means everything works out great. The reality is recovering just means you didn't die. The long term effects are frequently quite severe.

[Cerebus]

*About the zinc issue:
Taking zinc is highly recommended, as it has strong antiviral activity. Moreover it is being reported that chloroquine is actually successful because it is an ionophore of zinc, ie it increases its concentration in the cells.
https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176

Please, you don't have to read further than the title to realise that at this stage this is irrelevant:

"Zn²⁺ Inhibits Coronavirus and Arterivirus RNA Polymerase Activity In Vitro and Zinc Ionophores Block the Replication of These Viruses in Cell Culture"

In Vitro = In Glass = "in a test tube" and In Cell Culture = "in isolated, individual money kidney epithelial cells^* in a tissue culture bottle" i.e. in an isolated laboratory setting, not in a whole living organism, let alone in a controlled, double blinded clinical trial.

If one doesn't have the background to put the implicit context around a biochemistry paper so that one understands what it is saying, what it is not saying and what this means (or does not mean) for real world therapeutic applicability then this is not the time to be trying to read papers like this in isolation.

Would you react the same to a paper titled "Cl^- Inhibits Coronavirus and Arterivirus RNA Polymerase Activity In Vitro and Blocks the Replication of These Viruses in Cell Culture"? Because I can assure that the science behind that title, made up just now by me, is good. It would work, it would inhibit coronaviruses. In fact we (almost) all know that already, but if you don't know why my imaginary paper holds out no therapeutic possibilities, then you most definitely don't have the beginnings of what it takes to read the actual real paper cited and know how to interpret it in context.

The one thing that paper most emphatically does not say is:

Taking zinc is highly recommended, as it has strong antiviral activity.

That you, not the paper, have made that recommendation is unsupportable by that paper.

^*Vero E6 cell line, as cited in that paper.

[Siwastaja]

Sure, and my own mom has asthma. But isn't it more productive to follow health care authorities' recommendations than to waste energy worrying and discussing this all day long?

It's easier for you to say, being from a country where the officials have a good idea of what they are doing.

Many of us are from crippled political systems where the proper response comes way too late, and with way more difficulties than it should.

[vodka]

Here , some associations are presenting complaints by imprudent homicide versus the management of the COVID by the goverment : First minister: Pedro Sánchez(Falconetti) and Ccaes director Francisco Simón ( Center for Coordination of Health Alerts and Emergencies).

https://translate.google.es/translate?hl=es&sl=es&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elconfidencial.com%2Fespana%2F2020-03-26%2Fdenuncia-pedro-sanchez-prevaricacion-maniestacion-8m-supremo_2518964%2F

https://translate.google.es/translate?hl=es&sl=es&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.madridiario.es%2Fasociacion-consumidores-querella-fernando-simon