Author Topic: Covid 19 virus  (Read 234002 times)

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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #975 on: March 22, 2020, 01:42:14 pm »
Don't base your opinion of a political leader on one speech or appearance.  Trump held press conferences on Monday and Tuesday that were totally out of character.  Calm.  Rational.  To the point.   Excellent leadership.   He has since reverted to form.
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #976 on: March 22, 2020, 02:05:59 pm »
Don't base your opinion of a political leader on one speech or appearance.

that's true, we all have still "recovered" numbers missing (even after 3 and more weeks since infection), from lot of countries, and still 2/3 just/still infected, so definitely not the time to applaus a victory. Btw, maybe we should all move to Iran, they have since begin of the pandemy reported "recovered" ppl, just 3-4 days after they got infected :P For sure they trying to use that pandemy to stop the embargo, which definitely make sense and i agree, but gosh, why nobody from the western politicians told them how to "properly" fake statistics?
   
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Offline matts-uk

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #977 on: March 22, 2020, 02:22:03 pm »
  • Are they [facemasks] effective? Of course they are and even more so when grading goes up. There is a reason why they protect you from asbestos fibers or toxic dust. So they will protect your from infected particles or droplets.
The effectiveness of face-masks is nothing like as simple as you make it sound.  What you say is not untrue but it is incomplete.  FFP face-masks filter particles measured in micro-meters.  The covid virus is measured in nano-meters.

The UK Health and Safety Executive (HSE) tested FFP mask efficacy subsequent to the 2008 bird-flu scare.  FFP masks were found to provide an effective barrier against droplet transmission (>5 micro-meters) but merely reduced the risk of transmission by aerosol (<5 micro-meters).  Testing assumes ancillary infection control measures are being followed, such as disposing of the mask after a single use (task).
https://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-archive/infection-control/use-of-respiratory-and-facial-protection-17-01-2014/
https://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr619.pdf

I completely agree that domestic use of surgical masks and FFP masks provides a false sense of security.  Outside of well regulated, well resourced, health-care settings, FFP masks can quickly become a liability.  Imagine a busy doctor continuing to use the same pair of gloves as they move between patients.  The gloves will keep the doctor's hands clean but actually contribute to the spread of infection.  Take the gloves away completely and the doctor is encouraged to wash his hands more often, lowering the risk of transmission to patients and colleagues alike.

In a domestic setting face masks can become imbued with the properties of a 'magic amulet.'  The mask becomes a substitute for, and encourages neglect of, less convenient but far more effective measures. 

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If you isolate with your family and keep distance from other people and you strictly abide by it, then a mask is of limited use.
Yes.  Exceptional hygiene, social distancing and isolation are THE effective measures.  Domestic mask use is (I believe) more likely to compromise those measures than enhance them.  Many will end up walking around wearing masks for hours at a time, carrying virus laden droplets, infecting people who might otherwise be spared.

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As I've said, I had 10 FFP3's and came to the conclusion they're less useful to me but not to exposed health workers who may be within inches of Covid-19 patients' mouth or nose, hundreds of times a day.
Sincerely, thank you.  Without adequate supplies of the right PPE hospitals become a significant _source_ of transmission.  The UK is in a decidedly worse position than in the past, due to cost cutting policies driving the closure of small 'cottage' hospitals within local communities.  Medical services, health care professionals and their patients have been consolidated into much larger populations within city based, so called 'super-hospitals.'  Population density is the BIG transmission  risk - one of the few things that is clear in the numbers being released.

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So why are there no masks in the west but in China there are? Because we didn't react on time and waited until stocks were depleted. Western politicians, all of them, were simply busy discussing it all or playing it down while they should have been paying attention and acting and preparing at the time.
Can't say what happens in other states but in the UK the press ensure the politicians are damned if they do and damned if they don't.  Subsequent to the bird-flu scare of 2008 the press took great delight in pointing out the cost of the stockpiled vaccines and medical supplies that went out of date.

Ultimately the shortage of face-masks in the West is down to the West swapping domestic manufacture for globalisation and Just In Time supply chains.  Surgical masks were already in short supply by the end of last year, while local Chinese officials were suppressing news of the outbreak.  The virus reduced manufacturing capacity in China and created a peak in domestic demand simultaneously, before anyone in the West had much clue what was going on.  When the news broke Western domestic consumers created a demand where no demand had ever existed before, with a potential to outstrip even the regular demands of the medical professions.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/face-masks-coronavirus.html
 

Offline paulca

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #978 on: March 22, 2020, 02:39:58 pm »
UK ER Junior Doctor being fitted with his mask/shield.  Bit more than just buying one off ebay/amazon I'd say.

https://youtu.be/7XZ2_xSHKMw?t=570
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Offline Bud

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #979 on: March 22, 2020, 03:00:02 pm »
You can say that masks are not effective until cows come home. However everyone in medcare and services are wearing them. Guess they are all dumb, is that right?

Right?

Related:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-nurses-masks-covid19-swabs-exposure-1.5505406
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 03:01:43 pm by Bud »
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #980 on: March 22, 2020, 03:07:28 pm »
You can say that masks are not effective until cows come home. However everyone in medcare and services are wearing them. Guess they are all dumb, is that right?

Once again: masks are extremely valuable when you have no choice but to go out near other people; they reduce the probability of infect others, or being infected yourself. But, if anyone thinks they can go out near other people because they or the others have masks, even when it's not 100% necessary, then the mask has increased the probability of infection, which otherwise would be zero.

This is why it's important to understand that the masks are the secondary mean of protection: the primary one is not to go near anyone, at all.

Such cases naturally include medical workers, police, etc., but also the workers in supermarkets, pharmacies, etc., and optimally, all the customers buying the necessary food and medicines.

For the rest: don't go out, then you don't need to wear the mask either.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 03:09:08 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline iMo

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #981 on: March 22, 2020, 03:11:23 pm »
I wonder whether to create a "simple" model how the R0 changes with applying face masks with efficiency "Me" from 0.1 .. 99.9 and social distancing "Sd" from 0.5 .. 10m could be so difficult.

For talented people on this EE blog:

1. the R0=2.5 in standard urban population with no social distancing, without any face masks
2. let's assume the droplets amount drops with square of distance (measured from the source person), muzzle droplets amount "Da"=3000 while talking, 40000 while coughing
3. consider social distancing (no masks) Sd=0.5 .. 10m -> what would be the R0(Da, Sd)?
4. add "source" face mask with Me1 = 0.1 .. 99.9 -> what would be the R0(Da, Sd, Me1)?
5. add "destination" face mask with Me2 = 0.1 .. 99.9 -> what would be the R0(Da, Sd, Me1, Me2)?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 03:15:19 pm by imo »
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Offline vodka

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #982 on: March 22, 2020, 03:18:09 pm »
The political situation in Finland is critical. Suddenly, the government has practically claimed victory, and the prime minister Sanna Marin is giving political interviews aimed at their voters, the main content is how well they handled (yes, in past tense!) the situation. She especially highlights how the actions have happened (again, in past tense) at correct times, because the epidemic "was" here later compared to many other countries, such as Italy, it's OK to react later, as well. What she completely misses is that you should react comparatively earlier than Italy did. Yes, the government not only thinks it's OK to repeat the process seen in Italy; they don't fear saying it out loud!

The government has started talking about the whole crisis in past tense, and are mostly concerned about helping the economy to recover.

The schools have been partially reopened (for all 1st to 3rd graders); the teachers are terrified of such change. Despite starting the actions too late, last three days have been all about stopping the gradual increase of actions, and actually lifting some.


His goverment are doing like the mayor of the film "Jaws"




The trade union leader has hinted blackmailing for a pay increase of 10% in order to keep the nurses working. Of course, at such a time, such blackmailing is not tolerated anywhere; apparently we Finns are so forgiving that everybody just decided not to react to such comment at all. We hope she gets into her senses before it's too late. In such war-like conditions, blackmailing your owns and working against the health of the others easily costs your life.



Here is worse, to hazard the life of the health professionals ,it is rewarded with a palm at the shoulder. Now, we have 3500  infected between the health professional . Furthermore today, i have known that a mate of my mother has been reassigned to ICU,sooner or later my mother will too  reassigned . Simply , they are falling like flies.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 04:06:52 pm by vodka »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #983 on: March 22, 2020, 03:20:52 pm »
You can say that masks are not effective until cows come home. However everyone in medcare and services are wearing them. Guess they are all dumb, is that right?

Right?

Related:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-nurses-masks-covid19-swabs-exposure-1.5505406

I know that nuance is about as welcome to you as the swish of two bricks to a camel, but could you try not to boil someone's nuanced, reasoned explanation down to a "masks good"/"masks bad" choice and a rhetorical insult?
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline drussell

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #984 on: March 22, 2020, 03:34:17 pm »
The political situation in Finland is critical. Suddenly, the government has practically claimed victory, and the prime minister Sanna Marin is giving political interviews aimed at their voters, the main content is how well they handled (yes, in past tense!) the situation.

Uh oh....  That is a very bad sign...

Didn't you guys just announce 103 new cases today? 
At 626 total, that's a 15+% increase in one day. 

Sure, let's lift restrictions, this thing is over.   :palm: 
Well handled, there, gov't! 
 

Offline iMo

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #985 on: March 22, 2020, 03:37:37 pm »
The political situation in Finland is critical. Suddenly, the government has practically claimed victory, and the prime minister Sanna Marin is giving political interviews aimed at their voters, the main content is how well they handled (yes, in past tense!) the situation.

World Happiness Report 2019 - Finland N1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2019_World_Happiness_Report
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Offline mzzj

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #986 on: March 22, 2020, 03:45:54 pm »
The political situation in Finland is critical. Suddenly, the government has practically claimed victory, and the prime minister Sanna Marin is giving political interviews aimed at their voters, the main content is how well they handled (yes, in past tense!) the situation.

Uh oh....  That is a very bad sign...

Didn't you guys just announce 103 new cases today? 
At 626 total, that's a 15+% increase in one day. 

Sure, let's lift restrictions, this thing is over.   :palm: 
Well handled, there, gov't!
I'd take Siwastajas political views with a pinch.. no with a pint of salt.  :-DD
Lots of things could have been done differently with a hindsight but so far the response in here hasn't been any worse than most of the countries with the Korea and Singapore being notable differences. China maybe also.
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #987 on: March 22, 2020, 03:50:50 pm »
For the Finnish people, it has already become a tradition to be on the top of the World Happiness Record, it's considered important as a part of our public image. This is part of the "what does the elephant think of me?" mindset. Of course, such studies measure more the mindset of the people answerring to the questions, than actual reality, which is quite average. For some reason, North Korea is missing from the study; I'm sure they would get even better score out of it.

For the same reason, majority of the people have been happy about how the government is doing with regards to the corona virus, when asked by the media. Though, anybody who has any expertise, including people on the healthcare field, do not agree.

I think it was just yesterday that the PM Sanna Marin underlined the administration's role in the good result in the happiness record.
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #988 on: March 22, 2020, 03:55:13 pm »
Lots of things could have been done differently with a hindsight

No, no and no. It's not hindsight. The advantage Finland has is that we are one of the last countries to face the epidemic; Sweden and Norway are a week, Italy and Spain over a month ahead of us. Our leaders almost literally can see in the future!

To you, laughing at "political views" may be fun. But this is a real crisis, not some "which party do we vote for" game. Look, my "political views" are not views, or opinions; I'm stating what is actually happening, maybe using words you wouldn't use, but in the end, reality is what matters.

All the decisions, including decisions not to take proper actions as recommended by WHO and other international expert organizations, and decision to reopen the schools, have been done with access to great amount of verified expert analysis and information, including directly seeing the results of the mistakes others have made. No hindsight there; we are talking about the current decisions as well, because, opposite to what you think, I don't think it's "game over" yet. (See South Korea; they were able to rectify the situation after it was already quite bad.)

You could forgive the Italian politicians quite a lot due to the fact that they were first in Europe to see the severity of the epidemic. The same is not true in Finland. We are coming last, and still repeating the same mistakes by others. Maybe the choices are not much worse than with many others; it's still a very bad excuse. We should be doing better. Now it's an undisputable fact that we are flying by luck.

The timeline is quite well documented by Iltalehti: https://www.iltalehti.fi/koronavirus/a/9932d022-e52f-4984-879b-bb231ad9c24d
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 04:11:56 pm by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #989 on: March 22, 2020, 04:03:53 pm »
Speaking of Italian decision making:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/18/europe/italy-coronavirus-lockdown-intl/
Quote
He says the Italian government lagged at first. It was "lazy in the beginning... too much politics in Italy."

"There was a proposal to isolate people coming from the epicenter, coming from China," he said. "Then it became seen as racist, but they were people coming from the outbreak." That, he said, led to the current devastating situation.

 :-DD
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #990 on: March 22, 2020, 04:06:14 pm »
Speaking of Italian decision making:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/18/europe/italy-coronavirus-lockdown-intl/
Quote
He says the Italian government lagged at first. It was "lazy in the beginning... too much politics in Italy."

"There was a proposal to isolate people coming from the epicenter, coming from China," he said. "Then it became seen as racist, but they were people coming from the outbreak." That, he said, led to the current devastating situation.

It looks like the "political correctness" is the major killer in this pandemic..
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #991 on: March 22, 2020, 04:12:59 pm »
For the Finnish people, it has already become a tradition to be on the top of the World Happiness Record, it's considered important as a part of our public image. This is part of the "what does the elephant think of me?" mindset. Of course, such studies measure more the mindset of the people answerring to the questions, than actual reality, which is quite average.

As "happiness" is entirely subjective, how can there be an "actual reality"? You mean, "I am miserable, therefore it (and everybody else) is wrong".

Welcome to the grumpy old men's club, the coffee's in the corner, beer's in the fridge, the "there's a small boy on the grass" alarm button is on the south wall. For god's sake don't sit in George's chair, we're still trying to get bits of Harri out of the log chipper.
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Offline DrG

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #992 on: March 22, 2020, 04:19:39 pm »
For the Finnish people, it has already become a tradition to be on the top of the World Happiness Record, it's considered important as a part of our public image. This is part of the "what does the elephant think of me?" mindset. Of course, such studies measure more the mindset of the people answerring to the questions, than actual reality, which is quite average.

As "happiness" is entirely subjective, how can there be an "actual reality"? You mean, "I am miserable, therefore it (and everybody else) is wrong".

Welcome to the grumpy old men's club, the coffee's in the corner, beer's in the fridge, the "there's a small boy on the grass" alarm button is on the south wall. For god's sake don't sit in George's chair, we're still trying to get bits of Harri out of the log chipper.

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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #993 on: March 22, 2020, 04:20:09 pm »
mzzj's "hindsight" argument is, by the way, an absolute classic I have seen so many times:

(An expert:) This is urgent, we needed to do this two weeks ago!
(Decision-maker:) That's easy to say in hindsight, shut up.
(An expert:) OK, so you agree with me that it should be done, can we do that thing NOW?
(Decision-maker:) Oh, it's so easy to say in hindsight. We did our best.
(An expert:) OK, sure you did, but please, could we finally do it NOW?
(Decision-maker:) We are really doing our best, you know? You can't blame us.
(An expert:) OK, OK, whatever, not blaming anyone, just can we do it now?
(Decision-maker:) We are planning to do our best, and...

I did see the exact same mechanism destroy a promising business. I spoke up regularly from the beginning, but it was apparently always "in hindsight", hence unimplementable, until I finally left. In Finland we call this thing "selittelyvaihe" and I'm afraid we are seeing this going on by the authorities right now. Yes, I believe they will get hold of it at some point, but seeing this pattern for a few days right now is alarming. They need to get off this mindset sooner than later.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 04:30:38 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #994 on: March 22, 2020, 04:26:00 pm »
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #995 on: March 22, 2020, 04:28:02 pm »
As "happiness" is entirely subjective, how can there be an "actual reality"? You mean, "I am miserable, therefore it (and everybody else) is wrong".

That's a good question, indeed; the wording "actual reality" was stupidly simplified. Of course, you could kind-of objectively measure it using suicide statistics (or problems caused by severe alcoholism) for example - we do worse than average European society, but are not among the absolute worst -, but it won't be exact, because that reflects one extreme form of unhappiness, and only shows the shape of the distribution, but you can't accurately derive the mean value of "happiness" by assuming a perfect gaussian distribution, because it won't distribute that way.

On the other hand, let me ask you this: if you asked North Korean citizens to participate in such a study, you would most likely get the result that they are the happiest country in the world (I think it's obvious why they are not part of the study.) If I then play devil's advocate and say they are not "really" happy, would you agree with me? You might, I guess; for example, starving to death due to lack of food doesn't sound like a happy life; although indeed, happiness is subjective and we can't just say "you are not really happy" to someone.

It's quite interesting, btw, how you changed my literal description "quite average" to "miserable" in your grumpy old men analogy.

No need to reply to these philosophical remarks, it doesn't matter much here, let's get back to the corona.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 04:46:37 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline engrguy42

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #996 on: March 22, 2020, 04:30:51 pm »
Years ago I had a buddy who was a PSYCH professor at a university. And he'd always tell me his little "gems of truth" about human behavior that were very well known in the world of psychology, but nobody really talked about because people might get offended.

But the one that he'd often repeat whenever we discussed big issues like this is this:

"People believe what they want to believe. Facts are totally irrelevant".

And I kept pressing him with "yeah, but what about engineers and scientists and stuff??"

His response "Read my lips: People believe what they want to believe. Facts are totally irrelevant".

And after doing a tad of research I learned there's an absolute ton of studies with the same conclusion. And after following internet and media discussions for many years I've learned he was 100% right.

It's a fascinating subject, and I encourage folks to do some investigation. Really interesting phenomenon.   
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 04:40:22 pm by engrguy42 »
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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #997 on: March 22, 2020, 04:30:54 pm »
it is hard to realize how quickly this gets out of control

in 3-4 days US is likely to become the first country in the world for no. of cases
I think on next Sunday it will get 200-300 thousands cases and around 3-4 thousands deaths
in 2 weeks deaths might probably exceed 10'000 and might even get close to 20'000

  I wish that I could say that you're wrong.  I thought that the large number of new cases being reported might be due to previously untested individuals that they were just  getting around to testing but even after more than a week of large scale testing, the new case number is staying high so most of them probably really are newly infected individuals.  Thanks to the irresponsible students and others that continue to party like it's 1999 this is is going to sweep through the US like a wildfire.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #998 on: March 22, 2020, 04:46:29 pm »
Note that a majority of the cases, 378 as of Sunday, 22 March are in Helsinki-Uusimaa region, with just 1.2 M people.



I'd like to emphasize that the difference between mzzj and Siwastaja or myself is not political, but something different, more like temperament or attitude.  I hope this will come out as neutral, and illustrates the difficulty in managing the situation; I have no intention of claiming one is better than the other, only that one might be more appropriate for this particular situation, and much less so for some other situations.  I've also seen people I know well shifting from one to the other (both ways!) as their own situation has changed.  Keep this in mind, okay?

In this axis, there are two basic groups of Finns.  One group believes that we can do whatever we want, including rejecting old agreements (breaking them, essentially), set whatever new laws the country wants, and that it is a matter of will.  The other group believes that their choices are based on existing law (and international agreements), and that there is really only one sane course, the one they propose.

Funny side note:  Remember the movie Iron Sky? Which country didn't arm their spaceship?  It is extremely funny to Finns, because it is true!

There is almost zero discussion between the two.  It is made even harder, as the second group misunderstands the first group, because they observe the suggestions from the point of what they believe current law and international agreements allow.

(In 2015, when there was a flood of asylum seekers from Sweden to Finland, one side wanted to "close the borders", i.e. re-enact border checks, and reject those who came from another safe EU country to Finland seeking asylum.  A lot of people objected, because they sincirely believed that doing that would necessarily also close the border for all other traffic as well.  Correct or not, that illustrates the difficulty in the two sides' attitudes, and the difficulty in getting the true ideas across.)

Because of this divide/difference, there is actually very little discussion between the two groups on how things could be done.  Internally, there is usually a lively discussion (on one side, about what kind of changes would be needed; on the other, the leeway given by existing law and agreements, and how other countries have applied or misapplied those), but it is not reflected by the media.  Indeed, the mainstream media only reflects the latter, for whatever reason.  (That does not mean that group is happy about the media, though.)

The annoying part, the one that really bothers and angers me, is that because of that lack of honest discussion, the latter group will invariably resort to "nobody could foresee this" and "hindsight is 20/20" type arguments afterwards.  Obviously, neither group is willing to actually take responsibility, because we are all humans, but rejecting direct, honest discussion of the practically available approaches and possible solutions, does not mean that you can label the other suggestions as "hindsight" afterwards.

I first observed this as a child, when the Finnish officials delayed revealing the Chernobyl disaster.  Like now, they sincirely believed that people would be better off not knowing.  (This is prevalent in Finnish media, who are much more concerned about what Finns should not hear about, than they are about what they should hear.)  As an adult, I was among the ones who were called "Linux zealots" and "conspiracy theorist" when we correctly predicted the downfall of Nokia into Microsoft ownership when Stephen Elop became Nokia's CEO.  (I should point out that a lot of people still consider me a conspiracy theorist for Nokia, even though I said even then that I don't think there is any conspiracy, that the end result would simply be a logical result of the business strategy, and nothing sinister.  :-//)

The reason I don't think this is political (in the commonly used sense), is that this grouping is independent of political views.  There is not much correlation with this way of grouping to Left-Right or Socialist-Capitalist axes; you find members of both groups in all political parties here.  As long as no action is taken, or major changes made, this major difference does not cause deep rifts within the political parties.  (In a very real sense, you could say that the split in the True Finns party a few years ago was exactly due to this rift, though -- so perhaps there is one party that does include mostly the first group and very few of the second group, because they already split along these lines.)

I fear that this rift between the two groups is what is driving the no-action/minimal-action policy; that action is avoided because it would lead to internal political problems, and not because the political groups are internally in agreement as to what course of action is best for the whole country.
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #999 on: March 22, 2020, 04:48:44 pm »
Years ago I had a buddy who was a PSYCH professor at a university. And he'd always tell me his little "gems of truth" about human behavior that were very well known in the world of psychology, but nobody really talked about because people might get offended.

But the one that he'd often repeat whenever we discussed big issues like this is this:

"People believe what they want to believe. Facts are totally irrelevant". ..

That translated into the Politics means - today's success in Politics is hugely based on Populistic Marketing.

None Politician wants to be the "bearer of bad news" ("Facts are totally irrelevant").

"Shooting the Messenger" is an everyday reality in Politics and it works perfectly everywhere ("People believe what they want to believe").

For the Finnish people, it has already become a tradition to be on the top of the World Happiness Record, it's considered important as a part of our public image. This is part of the "what does the elephant think of me?" mindset. Of course, such studies measure more the mindset of the people answerring to the questions, than actual reality, which is quite average. For some reason, North Korea is missing from the study; I'm sure they would get even better score out of it..

I doubt it works such an easy way - ie. they ask a Government how the happiness is like in their country, or, they ask a few people assigned by the leading Party - that would mean no second place would ever exist.. :)

Look at the actual Report - a pretty sophisticated stuff..
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 04:54:49 pm by imo »
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