Covid 19 virus

[Cerebus]

Before the "random advice with no science or sense mob" take over entirely.

This disease spreads from aerosolised droplets of mucus, saliva and the like carrying shed virus, or hand to mucosa transfer of the same.

If you are infected you should wear a mask, if possible, to protect others close to you from uncontrolled coughing or sneezing, to limit the extent that you spray virus all over the place when you cough and sneeze. Note that most masks are designed to stop you breathing something noxious in, not from breathing something noxious out. A cough or sneeze is still likely to push air contaminated with droplets out around the mask's filter element. This is partial protection for others, not complete protection.

If you are infected, infectious and non-symptomatic you won't be coughing and sneezing so wearing a mask just in case you're infected and don't know it will be as much use as tits on a bull. It won't stop you spreading virus all over the place by touching your eyes or nose and then touching things that others may touch - which is the other way you'll spread the disease if you're not coughing and sneezing.

The most dangerous droplets are ones approximately 10um in diameter that will float in the air and not quickly drop to the ground. These will not be stopped by a mask unless it is of a high grade and passes a fit test to minimise leaks around the filtering parts of the mask. Do not put too much faith in masks, even those of us who've had proper respirator training and know our masks fit.

Wearing a properly fitted, proper grade of mask if you're uninfected but in close proximity to people who are known or likely to be infected may offer some protection but please don't think of it as a sure-fire preventative.

For those of us that keep good quality masks as standard PPE for non-medical tasks, note that the good grade masks with one-way exit values are not the thing to use to protect others from yourself if you are infected.

Given the massive shortage of masks please do not use them if you don't actively need them. Using up what small supply you may have unnecessarily is something that you may come to regret later.

The most likely route of infection for most people is hand to mucosa contact (hand to face) after touching a contaminated surface.

The best way to avoid infection and infecting others is for everybody, infected and ostensibly uninfected alike, to follow standard good hygiene practices.

• If you're going to cough or sneeze, whether you know you're infected or not, use a tissue and dispose of it properly. If you don't have a tissue to immediate hand, cough or sneeze into your elbow rather than your hands - this will minimise contamination of your hands.
• Learn to treat your hands as contaminated if
  
  • You have touched your own mouth/nose/eyes
  • You have touched a surface that may have been touched by infected persons
  • You have handled contaminated items e.g. a tissue that has been coughed or sneezed into
• Wash your hands for 20 seconds if they are likely contaminated (as above) before
  • Sticking your fingers into or significantly near the eyes, mouth, nose or any other wet mucosal body orifice - yours or anyone else's (parents who are constantly having to wipe off the mess machines known as children, take note)
  • Handling things that you'd expect others to handle (i.e. minimise the risk of passing on the disease to others when you're infected but non-symptomatic)

Lastly, if you are infected, or have good reason to believe that you might be infected - stay at home, do not go out in public unless strictly necessary. The question of "mask or no mask" doesn't come into it if you've put a door and some distance between you and the rest of the world.

[-gb-]

The most likely route of infection for most people is hand to mucosa contact (hand to face) after touching a contaminated surface.

Right. But if you would wear a selfmade mask, then you could not touch your mouth. I still think wearing a mask would be good. Here in germany/europe it's winter and cold, it is flu-season. so there are many people coughing and sneezing who think it it just flue and who do not wear masks.

Yes, there is a mask shortage, build them for you own.

Even if wearing the mask only makes a minor difference, i think in this situation we should at least try ist. look at china/southkorea, threre they wear masks and may be have succeded.

Edit:
I just can't find a reason why we do not even try all wearing selfmade masks. there is nothing to loose.

[nctnico]

The most likely route of infection for most people is hand to mucosa contact (hand to face) after touching a contaminated surface.

Right. But if you would wear a selfmade mask, then you could not touch your mouth. I still think wearing a mask would be good. Here in germany/europe it's winter and cold, it is flu-season. so there are many people coughing and sneezing who think it it just flue and who do not wear masks.

Yes, there is a mask shortage, build them for you own.

Even if wearing the mask only makes a minor difference, i think in this situation we should at least try ist. look at china/southkorea, threre they wear masks and may be have succeded.

No. They just wear masks for the placebo effect / false sense of security. Cerebus already described in detail why generic / self made masks don't work at all. The only thing which helps is to physically seperate people by keeping distance and keeping your hands clean. You are way too panicky. Just follow the advice from the experts.

[Cerebus]

The most likely route of infection for most people is hand to mucosa contact (hand to face) after touching a contaminated surface.

Right. But if you would wear a selfmade mask, then you could not touch your mouth.

Eyes?

I still think wearing a mask would be good. Here in germany/europe it's winter and cold, it is flu-season. so there are many people coughing and sneezing who think it it just flue and who do not wear masks.

If they are coughing and sneezing then, yes, they should bloody well be wearing masks. They ought to be in a normal cold or flu season, but that's not the way in most of Europe/the US. Perhaps it should be.

What's pointless is everybody, symptomless and symptomatic alike wearing masks.

[-gb-]

Cerebus already described in detail why generic / self made masks don't work at all.

They do work, but they do NOT protect you if you are not infected. They protect everyone else if you are infected and wear the mask.

with corona many people do not know they are infected because they
a) are in incubation time
b) have a very mild corona
c) think it's the flu. here in europe where it's winter.

but if everyone wears a selfmade mask, then these group of infection people who don't know or don't think they are infecting would wear a mask too.

Eyes?

yes, you are rignt but not touching the mouth is at least a little reduction.

What's pointless is everybody, symptomless and symptomatic alike wearing masks.

Maybe. but what can we loose? and if the mask is mandatory, then all people who think they have only the flu would wear the mask too. why not just try it?

[iMo]

The most likely route of infection for most people is hand to mucosa contact (hand to face) after touching a contaminated surface.

Right. But if you would wear a selfmade mask, then you could not touch your mouth. I still think wearing a mask would be good. Here in germany/europe it's winter and cold, it is flu-season. so there are many people coughing and sneezing who think it it just flue and who do not wear masks.

Yes, there is a mask shortage, build them for you own.

Even if wearing the mask only makes a minor difference, i think in this situation we should at least try ist. look at china/southkorea, threre they wear masks and may be have succeded.

No. They just wear masks for the placebo effect / false sense of security. Cerebus already described in detail why generic / self made masks don't work at all. The only thing which helps is to physically seperate people by keeping distance and keeping your hands clean. You are way too panicky. Just follow the advice from the experts.

[Bud]

When things go hairy, the last thing people should be doing is listening to "advice from the experts".

[vodka]

BBC suggested air pollution in northern Italy caused lung problems in general and that contributed to high mortality from the virus. Is that right?

They do like my town , blew up a "low density ethylene" plant and  release petrochemistry smoke to atmosphere.  You will see that few cases are detect of coronavirus. 

[DrG]

New study investigating stability of HCoV-19 and SARS-CoV-1 in aerosols and on different surfaces and estimating their decay rates using a Bayesian regression model.
NOTE: This link leads to the preprint pdf which has not been peer-reviewed. Funding support by NIAID, DARPA, NSF and SERDP.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.09.20033217v2

[Cerebus]

TL;DR on the above:

SARS-Covid-2 exhibits shortest half-lives on copper and cardboard. So by the time your PCB and its packaging get to you from China it's going to be safe. 

No viable virus could be measured after 4 hours on copper for HCoV-19 [SARS-Covid-2] and 8 hours for SARS-CoV-1, or after 24 hours on cardboard for HCoV-19 and 8 hours for SARS-CoV-1.

Longest half-lives are on stainless steel and plastic - watch those hand rails and door knobs.

HCoV-19 was most stable on plastic and stainless steel and viable virus could be detected up to 72 hours post application (Figure 1A), though the virus titer was greatly reduced (plastic from 10^3.7 to 10^0.6 TCID₅₀/mL after 72 hours, stainless steel from 10^3.7 to 10^0.6 TCID₅₀/mL after 48 hours). SARS-CoV-1 had similar stability kinetics (polypropylene from 10^3.4 to 10^0.7 TCID₅₀/mL after 72 hours, stainless steel from 10^3.6 to 10^0.6 TCID₅₀/mL after 48 hours).

Aerosol half-lives are long enough to be concerning:-

HCoV-19 and SARS-CoV-1 exhibited similar half-lives in aerosols, with median estimates around 1.1-1.2 hours, and 95% credible intervals of [0.64, 2.64] hours for HCoV-19 and [0.78 , 2.43] hours for SARS-CoV-1.

[flyte]

Reporting something from Europe, Belgium.

Well people, it's a mess.

It is an illusion to think you won't get infected by the SARS-Cov-2 virus. You will get it, by a chance of maybe 70%, eventually, because it's everywhere. You may escape infection for now by complete isolation, wearing masks, hand cleaning or mainly being lucky, but you likely won't escape it over time because it will be around for a long time. Experts all agree on it. There is no immunity and it's many times more deadly and contagious than flu. What worse cocktail of bad factors would you need?

The import thing is staying at home as instructed, disinfecting/washing your hands, keeping distance, no kissing or handshakes. The only purpose of it, is to make sure there is no overload on the hospital system and lack of medical supplies, and the infection rate slows down. If the infection rate is very high, it's good for rapid immunity across the population but very bad for society as doctors will have to face cruel choices over who can be helped and live, and who can't because there is no room or equipment. In Italy, it got out of control this way.

I would like to get this message out, especially to the Americas as the wave is coming there now. Only strict observation of the measures put in place will save lives. Over here, people only realized the seriousness of it in recent days. Before, it was more of "it won't happen to me", "I've got important business to do", "it's a joke" and "let's get infected we don't care". It's only when emergency doctors started making dramatic statements in the media of how bad this really was and that it did not only apply to elderly people, even going as far as showing lung CT scans of critically ill young persons, that people started to take notice and shut down the jokes and soften "their priorities". Also, politicians didn't do a very good job, navigating between incompetence, scientific ignorance, pleasing the electorate and taking unpopular measures. They wasted precious time.

Yesterday in the news, an emergency doctor here said something really interesting. He said they're always seeing the same pattern of people coming in: they had some moderate flu for a week at home, then it went away for two days making them think all is good, and then they show up at the emergency department, just walking in not too ill-looking, complaining about dry cough and shortness of breath. When they then take a CT-scan, they see their lungs are very critically affected by the virus due to infectuous liquid build-up and conglomeration, eventually building up scar tissue in the lungs. He said: these people are critically ill, but they just don't know it yet. They are in a life-threatening situation. He also said the age range of people currently in intensive care was 30 to 50, and that many of the patients were healthy and fit individuals with no medical background!

In Belgium, we're two steps away from a total lock-down, and luckily everyone seems to get it, for now. Schools closed, teleworking, no physical contact, etc.

Wishing you all the best and strength.

[nctnico]

Cerebus already described in detail why generic / self made masks don't work at all.

They do work, but they do NOT protect you if you are not infected. They protect everyone else if you are infected and wear the mask.

with corona many people do not know they are infected because they
a) are in incubation time
b) have a very mild corona
c) think it's the flu. here in europe where it's winter.

FFS Just listen to the experts and don't think you know better. False information and conspiracy theories are the last thing we need right now. If there is one time in your life to STFU and do as being told it is now.

[DBecker]

It's not like the virus is automatically oozing out of every pore of the dog. If it's just in certain organs or in the blood stream, that's nothing you'd usually get in contact to. If it's in a dogs' saliva, that'd be something else.

SARS and COVID-19 are also transmitted via feces...
I've non idea why, but AFAIK nobody observed pet-to-human transmission

From what I've read covid-19 is *not* transmitted by feces.
Do you have a credible study that states differently?

There are many other nasty things that are spread with feces, but this isn't one of them.

This virus is fairly fragile.  It's easily destroyed by sunlight, alcohol solutions, active chlorine compounds, heat, and everyday disinfectants.  It remains viable only minutes or hours on surfaces.

It readily spreads by direct personal contact and aerosol spit.  That should be the major concern.

[flyte]

This virus is fairly fragile.  It's easily destroyed by sunlight, alcohol solutions, active chlorine compounds, heat, and everyday disinfectants.  It remains viable only minutes or hours on surfaces.

It does not matter. As far as I've heard from medics, it is very very very contagious. More than flu, which is already pretty bad. Like I said, it's safe to say you won't be able to avoid it, eventually. With protection and hygiene measures, whilst absolutely useful and important, you will just slow infection rate down. And that's the current objective to save lives, i.e. to make sure hospitals can cope with the flood of cases. Btw, I've read tests have shown the virus can survive for days on stainless steel or plastic. Not sure how to avoid these materials in our current daily life.

[vodka]

Here, a week ago, all the regim slut "Journalist"  laughed ,mocked , and joked of the coronavirus and of people began to worry by the pandemia.

Today , a week  after , almost 12000 infected , 510 deaths and the economy destroyed.   

Here, this video.

https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2020/03/asi-se-reian-del-coronavirus-los-telepredicadores-del-regimen/

[TerminalJack505]

When things go hairy, the last thing people should be doing is listening to "advice from the experts".

Y2K
WMD
Peak Oil

Personally, I think the "experts" are likely saying what they are about face masks for one of two reasons: 1) they are simply parroting what the other "experts" are saying ("peak oil!")  2) they are trying to prevent non-medical persons from depleting the supply.

[Stray Electron]

MY MAIN reason for commenting here though, is that I'm sure I've missed a lot of points in the last 17 pages, but WHY was/is Italy hit so hard???  It seems disproportionate regarding the vast number of deaths there, compared to the rest of the world??  Were they totally UN-prepared, didn't take it serious, didn't have the resources???  I don't understand!!

   Italy was hit hard because they didn't quarantine the first two cases that they found back in early February.  Around the 2nd they had two Chinese tourists that were sick and were hospitalized but they allowed them to continue of their tour of the country and to go on a cruise. Weeks later when Italians started getting sick, the authorities started finally started some very limited quarantines but by then hundreds of people all over Italy were infected as well as numerous people in the surrounding countries and some had traveled back the US and to Canada.  About one week later, the number of cases in Italy exploded. Then about a week after that, the number of cases in many of the surrounding countries also exploded.

   I've been watching all of this unfold here <https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/> and in many local news reports.

   Italy, the US and most other countries waited MUCH too long before they started quarantining people and before they shutdown the cruises and other densely populated events.

   The thing that people need to get through their heads is that this virus is highly infectious days before the infected start feeling it and that the infected keep shedding it in their feces for at least a week (and probably much more) after they are clinically well. So it is VERY communicable. That's also why it was STUPID for the CDC to release those early patients at Lakeland AFB and to allow some of them to go hang out at the food court of the local mall in San Antonio.  The other thing that people need to realize is that it barely affects many children and young people so they tend to go on with their normal activities BUT all the while they are exposing other people to it.

  Go watch the video of the conference that took place in Boston back in late January. They medical folks there explained all of this WEEKS ago but were almost completely ignored.

  <https://externalmediasite.partners.org/Mediasite/Play/45a9a74f18ec45deb338e00ac4cf4e281d>

[-gb-]

FFS Just listen to the experts and don't think you know better.

Usually you are right. But here with Corona we, the western countrys do things very different from china and southkorea.

Regarding the masks, i would do what officials say, but there is exactly no official reason given why we shouldn't wear selfmade masks.

The official reasons are:
- there are not enough masks. yes, but this does not apply to selfmade masks.
- the mask does not protect you. yes, also right, but selfprotection is NOT the reason why i think that everyone should wear a mask.

It is, because if everyone has to wear a mask, then automatically everyone feeling fine but who is infected and transmitting is also wearing the mask. i havent either from politicians nor from media heard this thought. this is the reason why i am bringing it up here.

Here in europe and the US is wintertime, there are many people who cough and sneeze who don't wear the mask because it is flu-season. so they think it is flu but it might also be corona. they simply don't know. those people would wear a mask if wearing a mask was mandatory.

[Stray Electron]

Reporting something from Europe, Belgium.

Well people, it's a mess.

It is an illusion to think you won't get infected by the SARS-Cov-2 virus. You will get it, by a chance of maybe 70%, eventually, because it's everywhere. You may escape infection for now by complete isolation, wearing masks, hand cleaning or mainly being lucky, but you likely won't escape it over time because it will be around for a long time. Experts all agree on it. There is no immunity and it's many times more deadly and contagious than flu. What worse cocktail of bad factors would you need?

The import thing is staying at home as instructed, disinfecting/washing your hands, keeping distance, no kissing or handshakes. The only purpose of it, is to make sure there is no overload on the hospital system and lack of medical supplies, and the infection rate slows down. If the infection rate is very high, it's good for rapid immunity across the population but very bad for society as doctors will have to face cruel choices over who can be helped and live, and who can't because there is no room or equipment. In Italy, it got out of control this way.

I would like to get this message out, especially to the Americas as the wave is coming there now. Only strict observation of the measures put in place will save lives. Over here, people only realized the seriousness of it in recent days. Before, it was more of "it won't happen to me", "I've got important business to do", "it's a joke" and "let's get infected we don't care". It's only when emergency doctors started making dramatic statements in the media of how bad this really was and that it did not only apply to elderly people, even going as far as showing lung CT scans of critically ill young persons, that people started to take notice and shut down the jokes and soften "their priorities". Also, politicians didn't do a very good job, navigating between incompetence, scientific ignorance, pleasing the electorate and taking unpopular measures. They wasted precious time.

Yesterday in the news, an emergency doctor here said something really interesting. He said they're always seeing the same pattern of people coming in: they had some moderate flu for a week at home, then it went away for two days making them think all is good, and then they show up at the emergency department, just walking in not too ill-looking, complaining about dry cough and shortness of breath. When they then take a CT-scan, they see their lungs are very critically affected by the virus due to infectuous liquid build-up and conglomeration, eventually building up scar tissue in the lungs. He said: these people are critically ill, but they just don't know it yet. They are in a life-threatening situation. He also said the age range of people currently in intensive care was 30 to 50, and that many of the patients were healthy and fit individuals with no medical background!

In Belgium, we're two steps away from a total lock-down, and luckily everyone seems to get it, for now. Schools closed, teleworking, no physical contact, etc.

Wishing you all the best and strength.

   Good post, you covered the situation well.  I can't believe that seemingly intelligent people in this forum and elsewhere continue to believe that this isn't extremely serious and still want to compare it the annual flu! Like the guy on here 13 days ago that told me that in Germany they only had 50 cases and that it wasn't anything for them to worry about. As of this morning, Germany has over 8,000 cases and has added 812 new cases in the last 24 hours.

   FYI in my part of the US they just announced that they are extending all school closings to the end of the spring semester instead of just to the end of the spring break (announced only a few days ago).  It's sort of obvious that they're trying to break the bad news us slowly and not all at once.

[magic]

SARS-Covid-2 exhibits shortest half-lives on copper and cardboard. So by the time your PCB and its packaging get to you from China it's going to be safe. 

Did anyone test soldermask and ESD foam? That's the important question

[flyte]

MY MAIN reason for commenting here though, is that I'm sure I've missed a lot of points in the last 17 pages, but WHY was/is Italy hit so hard???  It seems disproportionate regarding the vast number of deaths there, compared to the rest of the world??  Were they totally UN-prepared, didn't take it serious, didn't have the resources???  I don't understand!!

It's math, basically. Each tick you miss on the x-axis of an exponential (infection) curve gets you hit by a smack of multiples on the y-axis. Add to that you need to look 14 days in the future on the x-axis, and there you have it. Italy was the first country outside Asia so they were taken by surprise. And they have a difficult demographic, too. I bear with the Italian people. If you ask me, and hopefully I will be wrong, the US is totally unprepared as well. It's understandable in some way, this is unprecedented. You just can't convince the general public to take "wartime measures" when only 20 people are infected.

Italy, the US and most other countries waited MUCH too long before they started quarantining people and before they shutdown the cruises and other densely populated events.

The Americas have no idea of what is coming their way now. Just like we had no idea of what was coming our way when the Italian case was considered "local". As you said, the incubation time is very long and it is very contagious, so anything you do now based on current evidence, you should have done two weeks ago. The only way to slow infection in the future is a drastic temporary halt of society life as we know it with measures beyond the current situation, and strict obedience by the population. Easier said than done.

[Stray Electron]

From what I've read covid-19 is *not* transmitted by feces.
Do you have a credible study that states differently?

  As a matter of fact, yes I do. https://externalmediasite.partners.org/Mediasite/Play/45a9a74f18ec45deb338e00ac4cf4e281d  According to it, the virus remains active in fecal matter for over a week after the person is clinically "cured".  Given that viruses like warm moist environments I suppose that it shouldn't be a surprise that it can be found in fecal matter, even after the patient is "cured".

   This could help explain some of the "reinfected" individuals and spreading from"cured" individuals that were noted in China.

[Black Phoenix]

Well probably already reported here:

Portugal closes the borders to contain the spread of virus, specially from Spain:

https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-and-portugal-partially-seal-their-borders-over-coronavirus-covid19-outbreak/

https://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/portugal-to-close-border-with-spain-to-tourists-120031600058_1.html

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/business/article241209116.html

Compared with Spain, currently we have less than 350 cases and 1 death. Although there are a lot of border between both countries without any type of control, specially in the south by sea.

[nctnico]

FFS Just listen to the experts and don't think you know better.

Usually you are right. But here with Corona we, the western countrys do things very different from china and southkorea.

Regarding the masks, i would do what officials say, but there is exactly no official reason
Here in europe and the US is wintertime, there are many people who cough and sneeze who don't wear the mask because it is flu-season. so they think it is flu but it might also be corona. they simply don't know. those people would wear a mask if wearing a mask was mandatory.

There is an official reason given: hands are a very important means of transportation of a virus. Even when you keep a distance. Touch your face anywhere and you have the virus on your hands ready to deposit it anywhere (remember your eyes and ears have a direct connection to your nose and mouth!). A mask could even be counter effective because now the virus is smeared all over an infected person's face and enjoying the ride waiting for getting transferred to the person's hands.

Edit: I'd like to emphasize flyte's remark: wartime measures. I told my kids that this situation is way worse compared to Chernobyl (which had the western part of Europe in a state of panic IIRC).

[flyte]

I can't believe that seemingly intelligent people in this forum and elsewhere continue to believe that this isn't extremely serious and still want to compare it the annual flu! Like the guy on here 13 days ago that told me that in Germany they only had 50 cases and that it wasn't anything for them to worry about.

Well, that's an easy one to convince people.

Citing virologist Marc Van Ranst: What is the difference with the flu?

• it's more contagious
• it's more deadly
• there is no vaccine
• there is no antiviral medicine
• nobody has antigens, nobody is immune to it

Obviously, for 85% percent of the population this will be like a good flu, but if you're into that unlucky other 15% part, then you may get very ill, need intensive care like artificial coma and assisted respiration or possibly die. For a country like the US, that small unlucky 15% is about 50 million people. Now count how many free hospital beds there are, let alone specialized life saving equipment. Let that sink in.