China Bashing

[Phil1977]

Seriously, I got vaccinated with three of this early medications: With AstraZeneca (you knew there was a small risk of cordial disease, but at this time it was seen as less relevant as COVID), with Biontech and with Moderna. I don't say there are no side effects because experience of one person just doesn't count for that. But I was always sure, with very credible confirmation of scientific experts, that these vaccinations are not more than some triggering of normal functions of the human immune system. It´s no gen therapy nor anything experimental.

People really did a lot of stupid things during the pandemic. But trying to find a quick vaccination was a highlight of science and society.

[Postal2]

.... But trying to find a quick vaccination was a highlight of science and society.

Not science and society, but a couple of schoolchildren who knew a little about something.

Just like there is no AMD processor, but there is a processor that was invented single-handedly by Keller.

[coppice]

Seriously, I got vaccinated with three of this early medications: With AstraZeneca (you knew there was a small risk of cordial disease, but at this time it was seen as less relevant as COVID), with Biontech and with Moderna. I don't say there are no side effects because experience of one person just doesn't count for that. But I was always sure, with very credible confirmation of scientific experts, that these vaccinations are not more than some triggering of normal functions of the human immune system. It´s no gen therapy nor anything experimental.

So, in what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus? That's what Biontech and Moderna do. They turn your body into a spike protein factory, and your immune systems then trains on the spike protein. An interesting thing, though, is people with natural immunity to SARS1, from 2003, still had a strong immune reaction to the somewhat similar SARS2 in 2020. The vaccinated, on the other hand have rapidly fading immunity without boosters, as the synthetic immunity doesn't seem to result in properly trained immune memory cells, that give long term immunity to disease as the short term cells die off.

[zilp]

So, in what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus?

When you are infected with SARS-CoV 2.

[coppice]

So, in what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus?

When you are infected with SARS-CoV 2.

Hey troll, when did SARS-CoV2 make your body produce the spike protein as a protein, rather than as a component of a complete virus?

[Simon]

Probably there are already threads of this kind, but anyhow, a comment in another thread really made me feel something here is going stupidly wrong:

Like china is going to CNC grind properly hardened driver bit steel and then run it through a multi point QC inspection with a CMM. 

I have a feeling their banging bits off some induction hardened surplus concrete reinforcement wire heat treated with filtered fryer oil while the other guys are using a swiss machining center running with blaser lube and vacuum kilns to make similar looking products. There is something very creative going on there. 

Of all forums I know this is one of the smartest. It seems most of the time valid reasonable thoughts win here and the rest of the time it´s just fun. But what nationalistic ideology drives so many people to this china bashing?

More or less all goods on the world market have parts or materials originating in China. It doesn't matter if you buy a US- or German car or an air-plane, in the end a big percentage of safety critical components comes from China. The suppliers there are under strict supervision from their clients all over the world and practically deliver the quality you pay them for.

I don't get why people do not understand if they offend quality from china, then they also offend the quality of their own industry using the parts and materials from there. And I know I repeat myself, but all globally acting companies do this.

Of course there are dodgy marketplaces in china, maybe more than in other parts of the world because china is just producing so incredibly much. If you buy on dodgy marketplaces you can doubtlessly buy a lot of junk, and I agree on anyone who wants to prevent buying junk. But just saying "don't buy from china" is just stupid.

My motto is don't buy from china or germany! I have a car, it's german, It's worse than what I thought was french garbage (it had a serious safety issue but otherwiseo trumps the german one).

China works like this: you get what you pay for and you have to monitor the crap out of it or they will cut corners. German stuff is just made in china and a big hulabaloo made about german design and it turns out to be as bad as chinese. Poorly thought out and obviously as cheap as possible in manufacture but now being german, it's expensive.

Oh I have a whole list of items but can't be bothered to reel them off now, I have an appointment with bed time and my wife.

Suffice to say, that as a german you sure don't want to be bashing china, or you loose your life line. Mind you anything that comes with a british flag all over it is a pass too, these products are also just made in the PRC because these toffs are dim enough to think that we are dim enough to not know what the PRC is!

At work I started using a "swiss" servo motor company, strange that their 1kW motors are a size bigger than THE swiss manufacturer, oh but what do you know? they co own a chinese factory.....

[RJSV]

   People really do operate (their own) perceptions, according to a maybe vaque 'Smell Test'.   Imperfect, but other earlier posts here refer to 'emotions' entering into perceptions.
Ask any parent, of teenage kids, attempting to detect lies.   Ask any really skilled CARD players or casino players. 
   They will laugh, if you try to ignore some intuitive call as not scientific.
"See...I TOLD YOU, he holding 3 aces, at the casino table..." They might say, at your naive dismissal.

   "See, I TOLD YOU, something was up, with 16 year old daughter;  Suzy.   Now, she's pregnant."

   In this light, I'm saying many government announcements did not pass 'The SMELL Test', when they all, in lock-step, would preface the latest 'rules', to be imposed, said:

   "Now look;   We have had almost 1 million DEATHS, (678,090), and so better lock down this, lock-down that..."

   "Now look, we have now had ALMOST  2 million DEATHS, (1,000,001 actual), and so get your shot, or else...".

   Those types of hyped up dictates just never passed the old, SMELL TEST.   Just felt so honey that you, maybe, wanted to see more facts, more actual common sense, before you accept the dictates coming down.

   Even my post, here, right now, is going through 'Smell test filters' as people read.   My reputation and demeanor enter into the split-second filter.
   Of course some folks employ that kind of 'filter' with more skill, than others.

[zilp]

So, in what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus?

When you are infected with SARS-CoV 2.

Hey troll, when did SARS-CoV2 make your body produce the spike protein as a protein, rather than as a component of a complete virus?

The spike protein doesn't stop being a protein when it is part of a virus. That is also why it is called a spike protein, you know.

[coppice]

So, in what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus?

When you are infected with SARS-CoV 2.

Hey troll, when did SARS-CoV2 make your body produce the spike protein as a protein, rather than as a component of a complete virus?

The spike protein doesn't stop being a protein when it is part of a virus. That is also why it is called a spike protein, you know.

Yeah, troll, a handful of components has exactly the same behaviour as a completed product built from them.

[SiliconWizard]

3... 2... 1.... 

[Andy Chee]

So, in what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus?

When you are infected with SARS-CoV 2.

Hey troll, when did SARS-CoV2 make your body produce the spike protein as a protein, rather than as a component of a complete virus?

The spike protein doesn't stop being a protein when it is part of a virus. That is also why it is called a spike protein, you know.

Yeah, troll, a handful of components has exactly the same behaviour as a completed product built from them.

Even with an actual viral infection with SARS-Cov-2, only the spike protein component of the virus triggers anything in the body's natural immune response.

[jpanhalt]

Even with an actual viral infection with SARS-Cov-2, only the spike protein component of the virus triggers anything in the body's natural immune response.

Not quite accurate.  The spike protein is significant and was an easy target to prevent infection.  As pointed out in the second citation, other targets that do not undergo such rapid mutation may be useful in the long term.
2020 Study of antibodies produced:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7217240/
2022 Study of SARS-CoV-2 proteins and potential other targets:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41392-022-00884-5#:~:text=SARS%2DCoV%2D2%20encodes%20sixteen,%2Dmembrane%20vesicles%20(DMVs).

[jonovid]

50 minute video is a unique insight into today's China.
this is Not the China of ten years ago when vocal critics of China, vloggers laowhy86 - C-Milk & Winston SerpentZA lived there.
but in this 2024 video-
see were most of the worlds electric bikes e-scooters & other electric vehicles are manufactured, including all the electronics
& component testing. a lot of rebadging or rebranding of Chinese electric bikes by big western e-bike brands!.
also get an insight into today's Chinese bullet trains & 2024 fast food culture.

[zilp]

So, in what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus?

When you are infected with SARS-CoV 2.

Hey troll, when did SARS-CoV2 make your body produce the spike protein as a protein, rather than as a component of a complete virus?

The spike protein doesn't stop being a protein when it is part of a virus. That is also why it is called a spike protein, you know.

Yeah, troll, a handful of components has exactly the same behaviour as a completed product built from them.

I'll tell you a secret: You asked, I quote, "what situation does your body naturally get triggered to produce the spike protein that characterises the COVID virus". You obviously can't know that, that's why I am telling you. Notice how it doesn't say anything about "[having] exactly the same behaviour as a completed product built from them"?

Fun fact: I answer the questions you ask. That's what trolls do, I suppose, because it's obviously the most destructive behaviour possible in a conversation to answer the question that was asked rather than jump all over the place while ignoring most of what the other person has said, as serious people would do.

[Nominal Animal]

Have we discovered a new Godwin's law?

The longer a discussion involving China in any form becomes, the more likely it will devolve into a flamewar about COVID-19 and related mRNA-based medicine controversies.

[Simon]

Have we discovered a new Godwin's law?

The longer a discussion involving China in any form becomes, the more likely it will devolve into a flamewar about COVID-19 and related mRNA-based medicine controversies.

correct

[Phil1977]

Have we discovered a new Godwin's law?

The longer a discussion involving China in any form becomes, the more likely it will devolve into a flamewar about COVID-19 and related mRNA-based medicine controversies.

I think Godwin was already perfectly reconfirmed by mentioning nazi experiments. Does anyone need more confirmation? Or may we close this thread for good?

[tautech]

Oh FFS, spotted this thread a few days back and it's turned into a Spicy Flu argument.   

Lock it NOW !

But before I go, after 11 years dealing very closely with our Asian friends, I have not a bad word to utter against them.

You all need know, in case you already didn't, greedy western conglomerates empowered many Asian countries in their search for cheap labor and increased profits for their shareholders.......with total disregard for their local employees. GM's got big bonuses too, shifting their production offshore.

Look at the previous booming manufacturing town/cities worldwide that are now only ghosts of their past. 

Seriously, whom would blame the Asians for grabbing these opportunities, handed to them on a plate.

[abeyer]

it's turned into a Spicy Flu argument

Was worth keeping it around for that comment , but otherwise is well past its thread lock time.

[Postal2]

I am attracted to themes of corporate greed and global dumbing down. The topic of Covid is exactly about this. The thing is that adenine, guanine, cytosine, thymine - this is the school curriculum in biology and organic chemistry. You can quickly differ when a person talking about Covid did not go to school.

[Nominal Animal]

Technically, I don't like it when threads are locked.  They feel to me like rooms with glass walls with a "YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED IN HERE" sign on the door.

I prefer to just step away, and ignore the thread, letting it die the natural way.  If someone would try to rope me back in, I'd tell them to back off, but that's never happened.  To help myself forget the mess, I'd add the members that would remind/irk me too much about that thread to my ignore list for a couple of weeks, until I feel I can interact with them again without that baggage.

Then again, I'd make for a horribly bad moderator, so to be honest, I really don't know what Dave or the moderators should do here.

As to China Bashing, I am impressed JLCPCB quality-and-service to price ratio, but also know not to buy stuff I need to rely on (like wall warts and electronics components) from random Chinese sellers on eBay/AliExpress/Temu (unless I have a definite reason to trust the seller).  To me, "One Hung Lo" moniker is just a variant of "dude selling stereos from the back of a white van", except with more humour.  (And the latter is actually more iffy in my opinion, because those goods are often stolen, instead of swept off the factory floor or picked from garbage.)  To me, it does not imply that all Chinese sellers do that at all; any negativity in my mind is about my country and culture making that kind of a business niche a profitable one in the first place.  Unless we start to talk about what in my country is impacted by Chinese politics or culture, it is useless/irrelevant for me to talk about politics or culture here; and because many Finnish members here disagree on my views about Finnish politics or culture, it'd be very difficult for anyone else to map the reasons for my opinions to at least minimally useful form to them... It'd just be politically charged idle chatting.  As I'd love to do something more fun and useful, I try to keep away from that kind of time wastage.  As to mRNA-based medicine, I mostly trust The Lancet and other peer-reviewed articles and not officials and politicians.  As a standard practice, I ignore all statements from politicians and officials that explain how and why they have never ever made any errors or mistakes and direct any blame elsewhere or call any other inferences/opinions/evaluations misinformation or conspiracy theories, or that explain why this time the same actions that have always failed in the past will somehow miraculously succeed.  They are just trying to get their pay/winnings and avoid blame so they can enjoy the fruits of their exploits in peace.

[tautech]

As to mRNA-based medicine, ............

Pleased you describe it as such, a vaccine it is not !

[zilp]

As to mRNA-based medicine, ............

Pleased you describe it as such, a vaccine it is not !

Why not?

[tautech]

As to mRNA-based medicine, ............

Pleased you describe it as such, a vaccine it is not !

Why not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

Some vaccines offer full sterilizing immunity, in which infection is prevented completely.

We expect vaccines to offer full protection against disease, those offered to combat Spicy Flu do not.

[zilp]

Pleased you describe it as such, a vaccine it is not !

Why not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

Some vaccines offer full sterilizing immunity, in which infection is prevented completely.

We expect vaccines to offer full protection against disease, those offered to combat Spicy Flu do not.

I want to draw your attention to the word "some" in the quote that you provided. This means that the predicate that follows that word in the sentence applies to a subset of the objects being referenced, in this case a subset of vaccines. This in particular means that that quote does not say that sterile immunity is an effect provided by all vaccines, but rather a subset of vaccines, which in particular implies that vaccines can exist that don't provide sterilizing immunity.

So, do you have any other reason for why mRNA vaccines are not vaccines, that isn't based on a source that contradicts your claim?