China Bashing

[vad]

... I always knew it is filled with many poorly educated, poorly trained, and immoral individuals who are paid what they deserve.

You are right. But my observations show that it is the same everywhere. It is not even known where it is worse.

My observation is that in the countries where I have lived, medical doctors do not administer vaccination injections.

To stay on topic, an individual found injecting normal saline instead of vaccine in China would probably be jailed for a long time. And during the COVID epidemic, they might face execution.

[zilp]

Has nothing to do with what?

You can't even give an example of one important person who has been working on vaccines all their life and praised the covid vaccination. Only comments from people who have no idea about the problem. These comments are for fools who will listen with their mouths open.

It is interesting that you seem to know that without ever even having asked me.

Also, somehow you seem to constantly forget to tell me what vaccine you are even talking about, or how you know that your uncle died from vaccination, or to answer basically any questions that I am asking. One could almost get the impression that you aren't actually interested in what is true.

[Postal2]

... I can't take you seriously. ...

What you say is empty talk. I have an opinion, you got it. Your opinion will interest me only when I see a sound thought in it. Likewise, you may not accept my opinion, but I see no point in proving it.

... My observation is that in the countries where I have lived, medical doctors do not administer vaccination injections.

I know. Your injections are given by hired people from the street with dirty hands.

... or to answer basically any questions that I am asking. ...

Your conversation is empty and has no meaning except to engage me in a useless argument.

[coppice]

Purposefully destroying someone's livelihood, with no possibility of them getting similar employment elsewhere in the country, is a pretty violent act. I don't think a gun to the head is a reasonable threshold for unreasonable duress.

First that still doesn't make the Covid19 vaccines medical experimentation, so the Nuremberg Code in so far is almost entirely irrelevant.

How was injecting people with a gene therapy that turned their own body into a vaccine factory, in a poorly controlled manner, which had not worked well once in all the experiments between the 1980s and 2018, not experimentation? They didn't even inject natural mRNA, so you couldn't use a "natural product" kind of argument. All the uridine had been been replaced with something else, to reduce some of the side effects they kept getting in mRNA experiments. Whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of using these vaccines, they were most definitely experimenting on people.

[BrokenYugo]

You would think this place of all places would be above anti science conspiracy bullshit.

[Marco]

China bashing in the 2020s reminds me of Japan bashing in the 1970s.

The political dimension was entirely absent from Japan's rise, despite their role in WW2 they weren't really seen as a security threat.

Putin has brought 30 years of post cold war globalist ideology come crumbling down.

[zilp]

First that still doesn't make the Covid19 vaccines medical experimentation, so the Nuremberg Code in so far is almost entirely irrelevant.

How was injecting people with a gene therapy that turned their own body into a vaccine factory, in a poorly controlled manner, which had not worked well once in all the experiments between the 1980s and 2018, not experimentation?

Please explain which vaccine you think is a gene therapy and why you think that it is a gene therapy.

Also, why are you giving a cut-off date of 2018, given that the vaccines for a disease that appeared in 2019 obviously was tested after 2018? Like, is there a specific reason why you are excluding the test of the vaccines in question themselves when trying to support your claim that things didn't work well?

They didn't even inject natural mRNA, so you couldn't use a "natural product" kind of argument. All the uridine had been been replaced with something else, to reduce some of the side effects they kept getting in mRNA experiments. Whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of using these vaccines, they were most definitely experimenting on people.

Is there any medical treatment that you would not consider experimentation on people?

Also, I just want to point out what you are shifting goal posts. Before, you were claiming that people's human rights were violated with vaccination mandates. Now, you are only talking about one specific vaccine technology, even though vaccines based on other technologies were available, so noone was required to use these specific vaccines.

[coppice]

First that still doesn't make the Covid19 vaccines medical experimentation, so the Nuremberg Code in so far is almost entirely irrelevant.

How was injecting people with a gene therapy that turned their own body into a vaccine factory, in a poorly controlled manner, which had not worked well once in all the experiments between the 1980s and 2018, not experimentation?

Please explain which vaccine you think is a gene therapy and why you think that it is a gene therapy.

If you asked anyone at Moderna in 2018 what they were experimenting with that would have said it was a gene therapy that makes your body produce vaccine. Suddenly in 2020 they reclassified it as a vaccine, to make it sound like traditional and well proven technoloigy.

Also, why are you giving a cut-off date of 2018, given that the vaccines for a disease that appeared in 2019 obviously was tested after 2018? Like, is there a specific reason why you are excluding the test of the vaccines in question themselves when trying to support your claim that things didn't work well?

The latest things I've seen about experiments with mRNA vaccines prior to the COVID one are from 2017 and 2018.

They didn't even inject natural mRNA, so you couldn't use a "natural product" kind of argument. All the uridine had been been replaced with something else, to reduce some of the side effects they kept getting in mRNA experiments. Whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of using these vaccines, they were most definitely experimenting on people.

Is there any medical treatment that you would not consider experimentation on people?

Real vaccines, of a type with a long safety track record, launched after full scale trials, and used with a proper authorisation, rather than an emergency one, aren't experiments. They still need to be used with care, though. We dodged a bullet with a fairly conventional swine flu vaccine that turned out to have horrible consequences not picked up during trials. Luckily it was not widely used.

Also, I just want to point out what you are shifting goal posts. Before, you were claiming that people's human rights were violated with vaccination mandates. Now, you are only talking about one specific vaccine technology, even though vaccines based on other technologies were available, so noone was required to use these specific vaccines.

How many people were able to choose which vaccine type they got? In the UK we had the Astra Zeneca vaccine, which was another new technology, but that seemed to have problems, and was withdrawn. After that we only had the Moderna and Pfizer mRNA vaccines available here. As far as I know problems with the J&J vaccine in the US lead to only the mRNA ones being available there, too.

There wasn't just one problem with the way governments ignored decades of pandemic planning, and went rogue. There were quite a few.

[vad]

I know. Your injections are given by hired people from the street with dirty hands.

Also not my experience. Typically, I saw nurses and pharmacists doing this job. The latter in the US only.

[coppice]

I know. Your injections are given by hired people from the street with dirty hands.

Also not my experience. Typically, I saw nurses and pharmacists doing this job. The latter in the US only.

Apart from GPs, most doctors perform so few injections, blooding samplings, and other operations with hypodermic needles that they are terrible at it. Its almost always nurses.

[Postal2]

Typically, I saw nurses ....

I don't know how exactly the nursing courses are organized, but for some reason women who could barely read and weren't familiar with a water closet were getting licensed very quickly.

... most doctors perform so few injections, blooding samplings, and other operations with hypodermic needles that they are terrible at it. Its almost always nurses.

I draw your attention to the fact that they were taught this very persistently, and even if they learned it poorly, then what can be expected?

A professor of medicine performed a blockade of my knee joint with a large needle, but for some reason he didn’t call a nurse to do it.

[vad]

Apart from GPs, most doctors perform so few injections, blooding samplings, and other operations with hypodermic needles that they are terrible at it. Its almost always nurses.

On this side of the pond, GPs (called PCPs here), surrounded by nurses, nurse practitioners and physician assistants, are too lazy and delegate giving the shots to other professionals.

[vad]

Typically, I saw nurses ....

I don't know how exactly the nursing courses are organized, but for some reason women who could barely read and weren't familiar with a water closet were getting licensed very quickly.

The courses are called university degree programs.

Unlike in Russia, where university is often seen as a place where kids starting from around age 17 learn how to drink vodka and pass exams without prior study while evading national service, a university in the rest of the world is an institution of higher education. It is a place where you can study a wide range of subjects in science or arts, and it can open up advanced career opportunities in fields such as nursing.

[coppice]

Typically, I saw nurses ....

I don't know how exactly the nursing courses are organized, but for some reason women who could barely read and weren't familiar with a water closet were getting licensed very quickly.

The courses are called university degree programs.

Unlike in Russia, where university is often seen as a place where kids starting from around age 17 learn how to drink vodka and pass exams without prior study while evading national service, a university in the rest of the world is an institution of higher education. It is a place where you can study a wide range of subjects in science or arts, and it can open up advanced career opportunities in fields such as nursing.

Wow, that sounds grand. In most countries Universities are in the sand paper business (for those not familiar with that term, it means a piece of paper that smooths away the obstacles in your life). An education is largely optional.

[vad]

Typically, I saw nurses ....

I don't know how exactly the nursing courses are organized, but for some reason women who could barely read and weren't familiar with a water closet were getting licensed very quickly.

The courses are called university degree programs.

Unlike in Russia, where university is often seen as a place where kids starting from around age 17 learn how to drink vodka and pass exams without prior study while evading national service, a university in the rest of the world is an institution of higher education. It is a place where you can study a wide range of subjects in science or arts, and it can open up advanced career opportunities in fields such as nursing.

Wow, that sounds grand. In most countries Universities are in the sand paper business (for those not familiar with that term, it means a piece of paper that smooths away the obstacles in your life). An education is largely optional.

Several professions require a license to practice, including nursing. Professional associations typically issue these licenses based on criteria such as completing a degree from an accredited university.

[Postal2]

.... kids starting from around age 17 learn how to drink vodka ...

From 13! (my experience)

... Wow, that sounds grand. ....

It sounds good, but in reality it's mostly a lie. Elon Musk had to come from South Africa to raise the average a little bit.

[zilp]

Please explain which vaccine you think is a gene therapy and why you think that it is a gene therapy.

If you asked anyone at Moderna in 2018 what they were experimenting with that would have said it was a gene therapy that makes your body produce vaccine. Suddenly in 2020 they reclassified it as a vaccine, to make it sound like traditional and well proven technoloigy.

Do you have any source to support that claim? (Both that they earlier called mRNA vaccines gene therapies, and that the reason why they changed that was "to make it sound like traditional and well proven technoloigy")

Also, why do you think that the former classification was more accurate than the current one?

Also, why are you giving a cut-off date of 2018, given that the vaccines for a disease that appeared in 2019 obviously was tested after 2018? Like, is there a specific reason why you are excluding the test of the vaccines in question themselves when trying to support your claim that things didn't work well?

The latest things I've seen about experiments with mRNA vaccines prior to the COVID one are from 2017 and 2018.

You did notice that that doesn't answer my question?

Is there any medical treatment that you would not consider experimentation on people?

Real vaccines, of a type with a long safety track record, launched after full scale trials, and used with a proper authorisation, rather than an emergency one, aren't experiments. They still need to be used with care, though. We dodged a bullet with a fairly conventional swine flu vaccine that turned out to have horrible consequences not picked up during trials. Luckily it was not widely used.

I am not sure I understand what your argument is.

As you yourself write, other vaccine technologies with a long track record at times go horribly wrong. Why would that be a reason to prefer those?

That especially so given that you yourself also name as the primary problem with mRNA vaccine research in the past was lacking effectiveness, not lack of safety, so it's not like mRNA vaccines had no safety track record--even if you discard a vaccine because it isn't effective, the trial still builds safety track record, after all.

Also, it is unclear to me what you consider "full scale trials" or "proper authorisation", or why you think that "emergency authorisation" makes somehow a binary difference between "experimentation" and "not experimentation".

I mean, no vaccine is guaranteed to be 100% safe, you yourself giving a prominent example. No amount of clinical trials can change that. Now, of course, in some sense, every vaccination, just like every other medical treatment, is an experiment of sorts, in that you never know whether in that one patient you will suddenly see some side effect that was never seen before, or that was never tied to the treatment as the cause, and that every application of the treatment thus contributes to figuring out just how safe a treatment is, and under which conditions it is dangerous. So the difference between "experimental" treatments and "tested and approved" treatments is unavoidably somewhat arbitrary, in that the experts who do that kind of work analyze statistically what the remaining risks are, and then declare things "tested and approved" once the calculated risk is lower than some selected threshold.

Now, as far as I can tell, the only difference between a "normal authorization" and an "emergency authorization" is how high you set that threshold. I.e., when there is an ongoing pandemic where people are dying in large numbers, plus all the other bad effects from infections, a higher risk for a treatment is considered acceptable, because waiting for a lower threshold to be reached itself has a risk for people.

But that also is nothing fundamentally special about emergency authorizations. If you try to get a new treatment authorized that shortens the common cold by a day (i.e., where the risks from the illness itself are essentially non-existent), you'll have to meet a much stricter risk standard than if you try to get a treatment authorized that cures some highly aggressive cancer. If the former kills one of a thousand users, that would be completely inacceptable. If the latter kills one in ten, that might be perfectly acceptable.

Of course, you couldn't know for absolutely certain whether any of the vaccines would turn out to have some bad long-term effects. But you couldn't know the same about the illness itself, which obviously was to be expected to infect everyone rather sooner than later. And looking back, long covid seems to be a much larger problem than damages from vaccination. That is why emergency authorizations are a thing.

Also, I just want to point out what you are shifting goal posts. Before, you were claiming that people's human rights were violated with vaccination mandates. Now, you are only talking about one specific vaccine technology, even though vaccines based on other technologies were available, so noone was required to use these specific vaccines.

How many people were able to choose which vaccine type they got? In the UK we had the Astra Zeneca vaccine, which was another new technology, but that seemed to have problems, and was withdrawn. After that we only had the Moderna and Pfizer mRNA vaccines available here. As far as I know problems with the J&J vaccine in the US lead to only the mRNA ones being available there, too.

Over here, people could get either of those vaccines if they really wanted. Like, not every vaccine was necessarily available everywhere at any time, but you should have been able to find the one you wanted if you had a preference.

Of course, as more data came in and the virus mutated, availability of vaccines changed, but IIRC, when vaccination mandates were relevant, you still had the choice.

There wasn't just one problem with the way governments ignored decades of pandemic planning, and went rogue. There were quite a few.

Well, that might be true or not ... but isn't really relevant here, is it?

[Postal2]

Regarding vaccines, I will give a small example. When in Russia they loudly announced that the virus had been decoded, it turned out that it was done by a schoolboy on a smartphone with a cheap testing attachment. In other countries, the story is probably similar, it’s just that the information is hidden more carefully from the stupid population.

Then the same people offer you a vaccine...

[coppice]

Also, I just want to point out what you are shifting goal posts. Before, you were claiming that people's human rights were violated with vaccination mandates. Now, you are only talking about one specific vaccine technology, even though vaccines based on other technologies were available, so noone was required to use these specific vaccines.

How many people were able to choose which vaccine type they got? In the UK we had the Astra Zeneca vaccine, which was another new technology, but that seemed to have problems, and was withdrawn. After that we only had the Moderna and Pfizer mRNA vaccines available here. As far as I know problems with the J&J vaccine in the US lead to only the mRNA ones being available there, too.

Over here, people could get either of those vaccines if they really wanted. Like, not every vaccine was necessarily available everywhere at any time, but you should have been able to find the one you wanted if you had a preference.

Of course, as more data came in and the virus mutated, availability of vaccines changed, but IIRC, when vaccination mandates were relevant, you still had the choice.

There wasn't just one problem with the way governments ignored decades of pandemic planning, and went rogue. There were quite a few.

Well, that might be true or not ... but isn't really relevant here, is it?

You said I was shifting the goal posts. I said there are multiple goal posts. You say that's not relevant. You are just a troll. Bye.

[vad]

Regarding vaccines, I will give a small example. When in Russia they loudly announced that the virus had been decoded, it turned out that it was done by a schoolboy on a smartphone with a cheap testing attachment. In other countries, the story is probably similar, it’s just that the information is hidden more carefully from the stupid population.

Could you provide a reference to a related article in a peer-reviewed medical journal, such as Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine, JAMA, or similar? A Russian journal would be Ok, I am a native speaker.

[Postal2]

... Could you provide a reference ...

https://tvspb.ru/programs/stories/491565
https://78.ru/articles/2020-03-22/borba-s-covid19-v-nii-grippa-rasshifrovali-polnii-genom-koronavirusa
You need to go to the website of the flu institute, you can find this employee there, he just graduated from school. He described how he did it.

[zilp]

Regarding vaccines, I will give a small example. When in Russia they loudly announced that the virus had been decoded, it turned out that it was done by a schoolboy on a smartphone with a cheap testing attachment. In other countries, the story is probably similar, it’s just that the information is hidden more carefully from the stupid population.

Then the same people offer you a vaccine...

Are you saying that you think that the sequence of the Covid 19 virus is not actually known?

[Postal2]

Are you saying that you think that the sequence of the Covid 19 virus is not actually known?

The sequence is known. But no one knows for sure how it works. If you read monographs on influenza, half of the known virus structures are described as "purpose unknown."

[vad]

... Could you provide a reference ...

https://tvspb.ru/programs/stories/491565
https://78.ru/articles/2020-03-22/borba-s-covid19-v-nii-grippa-rasshifrovali-polnii-genom-koronavirusa
You need to go to the website of the flu institute, you can find this employee there, he just graduated from school. He described how he did it.

Not a peer-reviewed journal, but news site. A fresh graduate was able to use genetic sequencing equipment. I was apparently wrong about what students are taught in Russian universities. Apparently graduates can operate imported Western scientific equipment. Kudos to the university, and I apologize for my previous assumption.

[Postal2]

... A fresh graduate was able to use genetic sequencing equipment. ....

He is the only one! In a whole institute of talentless people!