China Bashing

[Phil1977]

Probably there are already threads of this kind, but anyhow, a comment in another thread really made me feel something here is going stupidly wrong:

Like china is going to CNC grind properly hardened driver bit steel and then run it through a multi point QC inspection with a CMM. 

I have a feeling their banging bits off some induction hardened surplus concrete reinforcement wire heat treated with filtered fryer oil while the other guys are using a swiss machining center running with blaser lube and vacuum kilns to make similar looking products. There is something very creative going on there. 

Of all forums I know this is one of the smartest. It seems most of the time valid reasonable thoughts win here and the rest of the time it´s just fun. But what nationalistic ideology drives so many people to this china bashing?

More or less all goods on the world market have parts or materials originating in China. It doesn't matter if you buy a US- or German car or an air-plane, in the end a big percentage of safety critical components comes from China. The suppliers there are under strict supervision from their clients all over the world and practically deliver the quality you pay them for.

I don't get why people do not understand if they offend quality from china, then they also offend the quality of their own industry using the parts and materials from there. And I know I repeat myself, but all globally acting companies do this.

Of course there are dodgy marketplaces in china, maybe more than in other parts of the world because china is just producing so incredibly much. If you buy on dodgy marketplaces you can doubtlessly buy a lot of junk, and I agree on anyone who wants to prevent buying junk. But just saying "don't buy from china" is just stupid.

[Halcyon]

No doubt this thread will descend into chaos, as all the political ones do, but I'll chime in based on what I know to be true.

Quality aside, my biggest issue is with who controls the information that a particular device captures. Without going into details, there are some very compelling reasons why Chinese devices are outright banned in many government organisations. In some places, they aren't even allowed in the building.

[brucehoult]

Yup. If nothing else, don't forget iPhones are made in China. There are plenty of good companies in China, full of skilled and hard working people capable of turning out top quality products if you're willing to pay for them.

I also get tired of people bashing Aliexpress, while I have never had a bad experience there.

As far as I can tell, it's people who open the site, enter "SN7400" (or whatever) in the search box, and pick the cheapest.

While I'm buying from the official WCH store on Aliexpress, The official Sipeed store on Aliexpress. The official Radxa store on Aliexpress. The official Banana Pi store on Aliexpress. Ali provide a site that takes the order, takes the payment, in some case does the fulfilment. But you're getting the real product from the real company.

Not fakes, not relabelled, not used and recycled. Probably there are some stores on Ali that are like that. But there are plenty that are not. No different to Amazon.

[Circlotron]

These two guys lived in China for a number of years and offer insights on what life can be like for ordinary people there.

https://www.youtube.com/@serpentza/videos

https://www.youtube.com/@laowhy86/videos

[brucehoult]

These two guys lived in China for a number of years and offer insights on what life can be like for ordinary people there.

https://www.youtube.com/@serpentza/videos

https://www.youtube.com/@laowhy86/videos

Been watching them for a long long time e.g. their motorcycle trips together. Also, they were the first place I saw real news about COVID including, in the last days of December 2019, about Dr. Li Wenliang trying to raise the alarm.

[Halcyon]

Yup. If nothing else, don't forget iPhones are made in China.

Correct me if I'm wrong but they are merely "assembled" in China. The silicon comes from other (trusted) parts of the world.

[Postal2]

... The official Banana Pi store on Aliexpress. ...

Banana Pi is good, I recommend. Store is "SinoVoip Co., Limited Banana PI". I'm using BPI-M1. I tried BPI-M2 Zero, but it's too hot and no solution yet.

[Phil1977]

Yup. If nothing else, don't forget iPhones are made in China.

Correct me if I'm wrong but they are merely "assembled" in China. The silicon comes from other (trusted) parts of the world.

No one says China is good at everything. But they are indeed good at quality - if you are willing to pay for it.

E.g. the lenses for cameras in smartphones or car cameras are mostly made by chinese suppliers who deliver super precise optical assemblies in bulk quantities.

It´s one of the doubtlessly good aspects of globalism: You can combine the qualities of the whole world into one product, may it be an iPhone, an antibiotic med or a car airbag. All these things would be much more expensive or of worse quality if sourced only in parts of the world.

But okay, this question how much globalism is good for the individual citizens is really highly political... I fairly understand globalism needs to be critically discussed and sometimes to be limited. But please do this with fair arguments and not with silly nationalism.

[Halcyon]

Yup. If nothing else, don't forget iPhones are made in China.

Correct me if I'm wrong but they are merely "assembled" in China. The silicon comes from other (trusted) parts of the world.

But please do this with fair arguments and not with silly nationalism.

I was making a fair argument. Knowing where something is assembled is very different to knowing where something is actually made or where individual components are manufactured. In some countries, using the wrong phrasing can be deemed misleading and even illegal.

Cars are a great example. I wouldn't buy a car made with a Chinese engine or gearbox, but I would consider one if it was simply put together there.

Food products are another where labelling laws are important. Regardless of where the recipe is put together, I want to know where the raw ingredients come from.

You can't call something Australian made if the parts/components weren't substancially manufactured/grown/developed here.

[zilp]

Of all forums I know this is one of the smartest. It seems most of the time valid reasonable thoughts win here and the rest of the time it´s just fun. But what nationalistic ideology drives so many people to this china bashing?

Now, while there probably are people who are motivated by nationalism or racism when they bash China, and in particular when they bash Chinese people, I think it's too simplistic to attribute all China bashing to such motivations.

For example, I think that it is pretty obvious that faked components are primarily a thing coming from China. But that doesn't mean that Chinese people are somehow inherently dishonest and trying to defraud you. It might as well be that the Chinese government is highly nationalistic, one effect of which is that foreigners don't have the same rights in the legal system, which in turn allows the scammers scamming foreigners to flourish, where in other countries, the legal system would put a stop to that.

Though, if you look at, say, the repeated cooking oil scandals in China, this obviously doesn't affect only foreigners. Rather, you are just seeing the effects of an authoritarian government. Really, a lot of the not so great things you see coming from China can be attributed to their government and how it hurts its own people in order to stay in power.

So, if someone is trying to tell you that somehow Chinese people are inherently bad or incompetent, then that is obviously bullshit and should not stay unchallenged. But a lot of things that are commonly attributed to "the Chinese" really are effects of the Chinese government and how it incentivises or even forces certain behaviours. So, I think it is perfectly fine to say that you have to be wary of fakes when buying from China, and moreso than "western" countries in general. But at the same time, of course, when you buy chips from WCH through channels that have a reputation to lose, you will not be gettig sanded-down opamps labeled as microcontrollers, but rather microcontrollers of roughly the same quality as your average "western" brand.

[Phil1977]

@Halcyon: Yes, I get all your points. But regarding the iPhone you can't say it´s just assembled in China. Yes, the main CPU is developed and manufactured somewhere else, but the PCBs, the batteries, the passive components, probably the housing and lot´s of other components will be sourced on the free market and that very often means from China.

[Postal2]

.... and ways of thinking, ....

I wanted to register on Baidu with the goal of learning Chinese while communicating on different platforms. But I was late, and now it is impossible to do it.

[magic]

I also get tired of people bashing Aliexpress, while I have never had a bad experience there.

As far as I can tell, it's people who open the site, enter "SN7400" (or whatever) in the search box, and pick the cheapest.

I usually bash "AliBay" or "AliBayZon" because it's same situation on all those open trade platforms. These sites have search and you are supposed to be able to go there, type "SN7400" or "coffee mug" and discover sellers who offer that. And it often works quite well, but when it comes to some categories it simply doesn't because they are flooded with offers of counterfeit or substandard products. And the sites (including AliExpress) don't seem to care about it very much, as long as stuff is selling and money coming in, so they get the reputation they deserve.

On AliExpress it's very difficult or almost impossible to find legit discrete semiconductors, particularly power semiconductors, jellybean digital and analog ICs, or just about anything audio-related. 2N3904, HC74xx, LM358 or NE555 is about all you can "safely" buy there, all else will be an approximate functional substitute from the above list, with false markings indicating something else.

I have opened disputes with sellers of counterfeit ICs and AliExpress support changed them to "item doesn't meet specs" or "appearance not as described", depending on what evidence I provided I got my money back, but of course nothing ever happened to the sellers or their listings. So yes, I will partly blame the platform for this situation too.

Now, while there probably are people who are motivated by nationalism or racism when they bash China, and in particular when they bash Chinese people, I think it's too simplistic to attribute all China bashing to such motivations.

For example, I think that it is pretty obvious that faked components are primarily a thing coming from China. But that doesn't mean that Chinese people are somehow inherently dishonest and trying to defraud you. It might as well be that the Chinese government is highly nationalistic, one effect of which is that foreigners don't have the same rights in the legal system, which in turn allows the scammers scamming foreigners to flourish, where in other countries, the legal system would put a stop to that.

It might be, or it might not. I remember blueskull ranting that fakery is a standard business practice in China and they do it to each other as much as to foreigners. Being born under communism and growing up surrounded by people who spent decades in it, I'm not even surprised.

[Psi]

I really can't say I've observed an unacceptable amount of posts on this forum that are negative on products from china .

Sure there is the occasional quip about 'crap china quality' goods, but that is a real thing, china do make a lot of really crap quality junk that shouldn't even exist, along with all their extremely high quality goods.

It's hardly unfair to call them out on the crap quality stuff and I don't think this should be seen as people saying that all their goods are crap quality, because I don't think anyone means that when they say it

[Halcyon]

@Halcyon: Yes, I get all your points. But regarding the iPhone you can't say it´s just assembled in China. Yes, the main CPU is developed and manufactured somewhere else, but the PCBs, the batteries, the passive components, probably the housing and lot´s of other components will be sourced on the free market and that very often means from China.

Sources?

Because as far as I can tell, while sure the battery is sometimes made in China, in other cases it isn't. Most of the other major components are made outside China as well. Mostly Taiwan, Japan, US and South Korea.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/090315/10-major-companies-tied-apple-supply-chain.asp

This is just one article. A large number of others seem to say the same thing.

[Phil1977]

@Halcyon: Yes, I get all your points. But regarding the iPhone you can't say it´s just assembled in China. Yes, the main CPU is developed and manufactured somewhere else, but the PCBs, the batteries, the passive components, probably the housing and lot´s of other components will be sourced on the free market and that very often means from China.

Sources?

Because as far as I can tell, while sure the battery is sometimes made in China, in other cases it isn't. Most of the other major components are made outside China as well. Mostly Taiwan, Japan, US and South Korea.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/090315/10-major-companies-tied-apple-supply-chain.asp

This is just one article. A large number of others seem to say the same thing.

Most of the companies listed in your article are based in central Asia, and many of them have large parts of their manufacturing in China - like Foxcon.

Beside that do the Tier1-suppliers need Tier2 and Tier3 subsuppliers. And latestly there you will find stuff from everywhere.

[jpanhalt]

Maybe it's just the usual, frequently profane, hyperbole from that author.  Ignore.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/screwdriver-question-miniware-es15s/msg5583639/#msg5583639

[brucehoult]

Definitely a "glass half empty" personality there.

[tom66]

China has industrialised faster than possibly any other country.  Go back 30 years and find China as a middling developing economy and today they are 2nd largest economy. 

With this growth comes growing pains,  I think we all know stories of deception and fraud from China, like the fake iPhone chargers that explode when they short due to the lack of a fuse, or the plastic in baby formula scandal.  But overall I would say the quality of products from China has massively improved over the last decade and people underestimate China's competitiveness at their peril.

[Refrigerator]

Of all forums I know this is one of the smartest. It seems most of the time valid reasonable thoughts win here and the rest of the time it´s just fun.

As long as you don't add RGB and water cooling to your expensive oscilloscope; then this forum turns into the most insufferably whiny and butthurt place on earth 

[coppercone2]

I stand by the fact that Chinese default accessories for their cheap tools are marketing whizz wham that destroys screws and butchers metal. If you have any sense, and respect for your work, you learn to throw that crap out

your god damn delusional if you think your gonna get the tool and a 50 piece accessory set for less then the cost of the tool from a mid range manufacturer.

this sounds like the harbor freight sales guy

and it likes to rust too. I am 100% sure its creative heat treating of cheap metal.

and I think this often ends hilarious, like people having to drill out their 3000$ video card because they got a 'free' bit for with driver. Better yet, if its on the under side of a car. Like that chinese ratchet someone was going "OHHHH SUCH QUALITY" that exploded when it fell 2 feet and shot the spring out to the next country over. Haha, it was like destroying a goblin shredder in warcraft, you see clockwerk stuff fly away at high velocity. That spring might have hit the ISS.



Did you ever try to take a look under the microscope? Or do you just glance at the glossy surface finish, notice its mitered and assume it means its top quality? I am not gonna be fooled by a rock tumbler.

[nctnico]

In the end you get what you pay for.

And certainly there are companies everywhere where the quality control isn't adequate. Recently I bought some premium brand items (for cycling) which are manufactured both in the US and China. The US made versions have huge tolerances where the Chinese made ones have small tolerances. It just comes down to attention of detail and management.

[watchmaker]

My 2 cents before this thread gets closed.

A lot of the rhetoric sounds like how the US dismissed the USSR during the cold war.  We vastly underestmated their capabilities in the areas of state priority.

As far as this discussion goes, there is a conflation of Chinese manufacturing capability and AliExpress.  Two very different animals.

Fifteen years ago I discovered a manufacturer of solid carbide twist drills (not ckt board drills) that went down to 1/2mm.  Excellent quality.  I bought a lifetime supply for little money. I can repivot broken arbors without letting down the steel!

Also, many parts things from Swiss watches to aircraft parts are made there.  Just not sold on AliExpress.  Of course, the Swiss in particular have opened a Pandora's box with tooling that matches Bergeon but not marked Bergeon.

We engage in jingoism at our peril

[BrokenYugo]

The bits in my cheapo harbor freight mini screwdriver kit seem to be of reasonable quality. The ones in the cheaper eBay set it replaced were sort of brittle, but they did get work done. I've always bought cheap 1/4 inch hex drive bits from various sources (mostly the deal bins of cheap stuff in hardware stores) and IME anything with an oxide finish of some sort has been good enough, just avoid anything with color finish or plating. I got a set of assorted long/short reach #2PH off ali a while back, black oxide, reduced shank, they seem to be more than good enough for the $2 I paid, tips are wearing well. And those didn't come straight from some toolmaker's outlet store, they  came from a random store that sold everything on the pick 3 page. I'm sure they wouldn't last forever hanging sheetrock or whatever but I mostly bought them for deep screw pockets on plastic stuff.

Buying from China, or really direct importing anything from anywhere is a gamble to some extent. You have to know what you're looking at if you expect to win more often than not.

[JMK]

There is also the problem of the distribution chain.
Chinese products are much like any other. You get what you pay for.

BUT if the importer/distributor/wholesaler buys rubbish and sells with a huge markup (in an effort to get rich quick): the consumer believes the quality is good and blames the manufacturer for creating rubbish when, in fact, it is the middleman who should be blamed.