Boeing Starliner upcoming launch, first w/crew

[coppice]

Last I heard, the Starliner had a 45 day rated duration, starting from June 6th. After that, it wasn't deemed usable.  The way the valves were leaking, I wonder if it has sufficient Helium left for a return, manned or otherwise.

That 45 day thing is odd. Apparently it relates to a battery rating, but the Starliner is supposed to be built to sit on the ISS for very long periods.

The helium leak issues don't seem impact the length of their stay. The valves holding the helium in the main tanks apparently aren't the leaky ones.

The latest report that the Starliner doesn't contain software capable of an unmanned return is weird. Since the earliest space flights everyone seems to have considered being able to get a ship home if the crew is incapacitated in some way a key requirement. They clearly have such software available. The last Starliner flight worked entirely through a combination of automation and remote control. I understand them being concerned about the reliability of automation, when the thrusters seem to be flaky, but surely the relevant software should be present in the ship's systems?

[Bud]

and the astronauts may be stuck forever

wonder whose shirts they wear

More importantly- whose underwear.

[Gyro]

The latest report that the Starliner doesn't contain software capable of an unmanned return is weird. Since the earliest space flights everyone seems to have considered being able to get a ship home if the crew is incapacitated in some way a key requirement. They clearly have such software available. The last Starliner flight worked entirely through a combination of automation and remote control. I understand them being concerned about the reliability of automation, when the thrusters seem to be flaky, but surely the relevant software should be present in the ship's systems?

Hmm, not wanting to trust / even include the relevant automation versus the certainty of a live crew being able to successfully work around flaky thrusters?  That must have been a tricky one!

[coppice]

The latest report that the Starliner doesn't contain software capable of an unmanned return is weird. Since the earliest space flights everyone seems to have considered being able to get a ship home if the crew is incapacitated in some way a key requirement. They clearly have such software available. The last Starliner flight worked entirely through a combination of automation and remote control. I understand them being concerned about the reliability of automation, when the thrusters seem to be flaky, but surely the relevant software should be present in the ship's systems?

Hmm, not wanting to trust / even include the relevant automation versus the certainty of a live crew being able to successfully work around flaky thrusters?  That must have been a tricky one!

Certainty? You might want to look that word up. It seems like they had a narrow escape on the way to the ISS, and were fortunate to make it, due to flaky thrusters. The look on Sunni Williams face as she entered to ISS was priceless.

Beside that. Not trusting, and not even having automation available are two entirely different things. In the 1960s the US and USSR used to bait each other about who cared more about their astronauts/cosmonauts on the basis of how well things could be handled in problem situations.

[Homer J Simpson]

Good video on the subject.

It does appear that for whatever reason the are using flight  software that does not allow for antonymous return.

[Gyro]

Certainty? You might want to look that word up. It seems like they had a narrow escape on the way to the ISS, and were fortunate to make it, due to flaky thrusters. The look on Sunni Williams face as she entered to ISS was priceless.

My certainty was followed by a question mark, as in how certain. Nothing is certain up there.

[Andy Chee]

The latest report that the Starliner doesn't contain software capable of an unmanned return is weird. Since the earliest space flights everyone seems to have considered being able to get a ship home if the crew is incapacitated in some way a key requirement. They clearly have such software available. The last Starliner flight worked entirely through a combination of automation and remote control. I understand them being concerned about the reliability of automation, when the thrusters seem to be flaky, but surely the relevant software should be present in the ship's systems?

Hmm, not wanting to trust / even include the relevant automation versus the certainty of a live crew being able to successfully work around flaky thrusters?  That must have been a tricky one!

Certainty? You might want to look that word up. It seems like they had a narrow escape on the way to the ISS, and were fortunate to make it, due to flaky thrusters. The look on Sunni Williams face as she entered to ISS was priceless.

I would imagine that depends on the nature of the "flakiness". 

For example, if the thrusters couldn't fire or steer in fine increments for docking/undocking, it would surely still be ok with coarse firing for atmospheric re-entry.

[coppercone2]

I wonder if they can wear space suits, and cut a hole in the side to make a manual thruster control stick

I should not be too much harder then steering a motor boat

I never imagine that alot of people will go up there unless you have a manual control solution. Its so many layers of things that can go wrong.

[floobydust]

"Boeing took a flight thruster from another Starliner to a NASA test facility in White Sands, New Mexico, and ran it through two rendezvous sequences that replicated what the
Starliner in orbit experienced along with five return-to-Earth, or "downhill," scenarios."

Excellent that Boeing is doing testing, uh er mid-mission 

"Similar thrust degradation was seen and when engineers disassembled the test thruster, a Teflon seal was found to be slightly deformed, likely due to exposure to one of the propellants, nitrogen tetroxide."

I'd also read that it is due to heat, teflon deforming. I think I'll use the word "melted". Nonetheless, permanent damage occurs. The Starliner ( ISS docked) test firings for all 27 of them, I think they are still analyzing the data supposedly.

[Andy Chee]

I wonder if they can wear space suits, and cut a hole in the side to make a manual thruster control stick

I should not be too much harder then steering a motor boat

I never imagine that alot of people will go up there unless you have a manual control solution. Its so many layers of things that can go wrong.

I don't think modern astronauts even undergo "test pilot" training to understand the maneuvering dynamics of the ship.

Fly-by-wire means that pilots nowadays are completely disconnected from the control surfaces (or in the case of space ships, thrusters).

Such vehicle dynamics training was commonplace during the 1960s-70s space programs.  Not any more me thinks.

Incidentally, a motor boat is a bad comparison, due to the friction of water greatly assisting in vehicle stability.  A closer analogy is attempting to maneuver your vehicle in free-fall (e.g. the scene from Blues Brothers required several takes to drop the Nazi vehicle in a stable position without tumbling).

The biggest difficulty with manual control of multiple thrusters, is ensuring the vectors correctly add up, the vector goes through the center of mass, and doesn't send the vehicle in a spin!

Apollo 13 also comes to mind, where the astronauts had to learn the vehicle dynamics of the combined LM,CM & SM, being pushed by the LM descent motor.

[SiliconWizard]

I'm not sure about "astronauts", but fighter pilots, which eventually pilot ultra-assisted machines pumped full of computers, are certainly trained first and for a pretty long time on small, completely manual aerobatic planes, and the training is extremely tough.

These days, I suppose that behind the "astronaut" term, there are quite a few completely different profiles, some of which having possibly never piloted a plane. Pretty sure the astronauts that did pilot the space shuttle were either ex-fighter pilots, or at least had received a similar training.

[coppice]

I don't think modern astronauts even undergo "test pilot" training to understand the maneuvering dynamics of the ship.

I doubt that would be of any help to an astronaut until DreamChaser starts carrying people. A capsule is so unlike a plane.

Fly-by-wire means that pilots nowadays are completely disconnected from the control surfaces (or in the case of space ships, thrusters).

Such vehicle dynamics training was commonplace during the 1960s-70s space programs.  Not any more me thinks.

Modern fighters are unstable. Computers make them act in a stable manner and present a response to the pilot that tries to roughly mimic a traditional plane. They still need to learn flight dynamics, how to conserve energy in maneovures to be ready to attack, and so on, just like a 60s or 70s pilot, if they want to survive.

[SiliconWizard]

The astronauts are apparently going to be stuck at least until next february. I hope they enjoy the view.

[HuronKing]

"Boeing engineering perfection.... Boeing engineering sufficience..."

[Andy Chee]

I don't think modern astronauts even undergo "test pilot" training to understand the maneuvering dynamics of the ship.

A capsule is so unlike a plane.

Missing my point, which was that modern astronauts do not get trained in the handling dynamics of the vehicle, as thoroughly as astronauts of the 60s-70s.

[coppercone2]

I wonder if aerospace engineering in the far future is going to be about bringing unstable things into stable by hand... i.e. bringing back mechanical controls for difficult surfaces

[Andy Chee]

I wonder if aerospace engineering in the far future is going to be about bringing unstable things into stable by hand... i.e. bringing back mechanical controls for difficult surfaces

Manual control is only viable when there are few surfaces to control (or in the case of spacecraft, thrusters).

For example, I believe the B-2 Spirit "flying wing" stealth bomber has eight main control surfaces.  Getting a pilot to control them manually would be impossible.

Or how about a simpler example, an RC pilot coordinating the four individual rotor speeds of a quadcopter without a flight controller.

[coppice]

The astronauts are apparently going to be stuck at least until next february. I hope they enjoy the view.

This is getting like the old airliner joke. A 747's engine fails, and the pilot says to the passengers that there is no problem. The plane will just be a little late. A second engine fails. The pilot says there's no problem, they will just be a little later. A third engine fails, and the pilot repeats their calming message. A passenger then says "if any more engines fail, we'll be up here all night:".

[SiliconWizard]

The astronauts are apparently going to be stuck at least until next february. I hope they enjoy the view.

This is getting like the old airliner joke. A 747's engine fails, and the pilot says to the passengers that there is no problem. The plane will just be a little late. A second engine fails. The pilot says there's no problem, they will just be a little later. A third engine fails, and the pilot repeats their calming message. A passenger then says "if any more engines fail, we'll be up here all night:".

Something like that!

[Sal Ammoniac]

The astronauts are apparently going to be stuck at least until next february. I hope they enjoy the view.

This is getting like the old airliner joke. A 747's engine fails, and the pilot says to the passengers that there is no problem. The plane will just be a little late. A second engine fails. The pilot says there's no problem, they will just be a little later. A third engine fails, and the pilot repeats their calming message. A passenger then says "if any more engines fail, we'll be up here all night:".

Or ATC's response to a B-52 pilot who declared an emergency on final approach when an engine failed: "Ah, the dreaded seven engine landing".

[Bud]

The first Grandma in space.

[coppercone2]

that design was right, they knew not to trust a complicated moving metal object.

[jpanhalt]

The first Grandma in space.

John Glenn was probably the first grandparent when he took a Shuttle flight in 1998 at age 77.  Isn't grandparenting a fully mixed-gender event? 

[SiliconWizard]

I dunno if that's just me, but while the girl seems alright (apart from the hairstyle  ), the guy doesn't look to be all that well.