$2,000 Custom PC vs $4,000 Mac Pro

[suicidaleggroll]

Designing a PC "I want to put these parts in it."
Building a PC "This card will only go in this slot, this plug will only go in this socket. Don't block airflow."
Debugging a PC "Well that's all the drivers installed."

All that takes what, 2 hours at a push?

Best case scenario, sure.  Worst case is you spend weeks debugging intermittent memory failures and kernel panics, RMAing memory modules that claimed to be compatible but aren't, RMAing motherboards because of undocumented and unexpected IRQ conflicts kicking cards out of the system for no damn reason, etc.

If you've never run into problems like this, then you haven't been building systems very long.  They're not common, but they happen, and they suck the time away when they do.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

2) Comparing a fully assembled, tested, and warrantied retail product to a rig you design, build, and debug yourself (time = money)

Designing a PC "I want to put these parts in it."
Building a PC "This card will only go in this slot, this plug will only go in this socket. Don't block airflow."
Debugging a PC "Well that's all the drivers installed."

All that takes what, 2 hours at a push?

Fair enough this isn't a like for like comparison between a DIY PC and an Apple branded one and that's a failing of this video. But you can still build a none Apple PC for at most half the price with similar specs and buy one, say a ThinkStation, for at most two thirds of it.

There is a difference in the level of testing, compliance testing, and certification (including software) for diy vs certified workstation configuring and testing a DIY will cost way more than the premium youd pay anyway at reasonable rate).  Having said that, I do DIY because it's fun and I get exactly what I want. I know what to do if things don't work, and Im not supporting whole offices, just my own.

Hardware is over priced (to me the bottom end apple pros, looks to be about $1k premium over dell workstation), but with that you get the compatibility with apples stuff. If you need the apple compatibility/features or the uniformity of the apple hardware, then that's what it costs (except a hackintosh, but no professional environment will be doing that).

[AF6LJ]

Designing a PC "I want to put these parts in it."
Building a PC "This card will only go in this slot, this plug will only go in this socket. Don't block airflow."
Debugging a PC "Well that's all the drivers installed."

All that takes what, 2 hours at a push?

Best case scenario, sure.  Worst case is you spend weeks debugging intermittent memory failures and kernel panics, RMAing memory modules that claimed to be compatible but aren't, RMAing motherboards because of undocumented and unexpected IRQ conflicts kicking cards out of the system for no damn reason, etc.

If you've never run into problems like this, then you haven't been building systems very long.  They're not common, but they happen, and they suck the time away when they do.

I have been building systems since 1994 and have not encountered these problems since 2000; I stick with high quality components that are known to work together well. This only becomes a "crap shoot" when the builder insists on using low tier parts.

In regard to the Mac pro mentioned above; that computer was known to be an under-performer the day it came out.   

[Mechanical Menace]

If you've never run into problems like this, then you haven't been building systems very long. They're not common, but they happen, and they suck the time away when they do.

I've run into problems like that, but not since setting jumpers and DIP switches was part of building a system. But I've also got to admit I learned long ago not to buy the lowest price MoBo with the kitchen sink thrown in. A lot of the time spending just £10 more on a MoBo that sounds less capable vastly improves your experience with the system.

But tbh I doubt anyone on here would spend out for Xeons then think "I'm going to put them in the cheapest bargain basement motherboard I can find but want it to have every feature under the sun." I've had to talk people out of that when building systems for them though and that can be hard work.

[suicidaleggroll]

This only becomes a "crap shoot" when the builder insists on using low tier parts.

Nope, it happens with all of them, even the big name, big price server boards.  In fact both of the examples I brought up happened with Supermicro motherboards.  The one with the memory problems was a ~$600 dual Xeon server board about 4 years ago, the one with IRQ problems was a $250 Xeon workstation board about a year ago.  I've been building about 5-10 workstation/server systems per year for the last decade.  It doesn't matter how much you spend, undocumented incompatibilities and problems happen.

[Denz3r]

Sorry to derail,

Where are you gents finding these deals on "off-lease refurbished" workstations. Any particular website for these?

[elgonzo]

Sorry to derail,

Where are you gents finding these deals on "off-lease refurbished" workstations. Any particular website for these?

Google? Even rather generic search terms like "refurbished workstations" should give you some dealers in the search result.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Sorry to derail,

Where are you gents finding these deals on "off-lease refurbished" workstations. Any particular website for these?

If you live by a large university, go to their property disposition center.  Once the service contract runs out on them, they chuck them, usually 2-3-4 years.

Dell, apple, probably hp and others have their own used/refurbished/of-lease stores online.

[Denz3r]

Sorry to derail,

Where are you gents finding these deals on "off-lease refurbished" workstations. Any particular website for these?

If you live by a large university, go to their property disposition center.  Once the service contract runs out on them, they chuck them, usually 2-3-4 years.

Dell, apple, probably hp and others have their own used/refurbished/of-lease stores online.

Thanks for the ideas, I hadn't thought about the university approach.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Thanks for the ideas, I hadn't thought about the university approach.

To clarify, chuck = cheap, not free

[miguelvp]

Sorry to derail,

Where are you gents finding these deals on "off-lease refurbished" workstations. Any particular website for these?

Mine is from Ebay, but microcenter, newegg and staples has good refurbished and off-lease deals.
You still have to do your homework on what you need and what those xeon workstations have to offer for your needs.

[vze1lryy]

Sorry to derail,

Where are you gents finding these deals on "off-lease refurbished" workstations. Any particular website for these?

Every now an then if yous tack coupon deals dell has quad core haswell core i7 workstations int he $400-$500 range. You have to be one of those people that has a browser bookmark set with the checkboxes for what you want already checked, and the twitters of all the coupons, who checks it 3 times a day. But if you do there is some really good stuff to be had every now and then.

[ECEdesign]

PC's have always been cheaper to build for same or better specs.  I like the build quality of the laptops and the design of them.  I have really enjoyed OS X although in recent years they are really heavily ignoring the power user in favor of over simplistic menus.  In the latest version of OS X they redesigned the disk utility to look pretty and took out RAID support.  Really?

I figure if OS X gets too stripped down ill go for RedHat.  It seems quite nice.

[Mechanical Menace]

I figure if OS X gets too stripped down ill go for RedHat.  It seems quite nice.

Suse fanboy but mainly a *buntu user (for the practicalities of using certain software) but I've got to say if you want the best out of the box, everything in the repos and relatively up to date and working right development environment RedHat and Fedora are the bees knees. I would even go as far as saying that for that usage case they're not just the best choice of Linux distro but possibly the best choice of OS too.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

PC's have always been cheaper to build for same or better specs.  I like the build quality of the laptops and the design of them.  I have really enjoyed OS X although in recent years they are really heavily ignoring the power user in favor of over simplistic menus.  In the latest version of OS X they redesigned the disk utility to look pretty and took out RAID support.  Really?

I figure if OS X gets too stripped down ill go for RedHat.  It seems quite nice.

I have had a number of apple laptops.  The upgraded screens on the apple laptops are usually ahead of pc laptops. I also like the feel of the construction (but disappointed about hardware reliability, but not worse than pc laptop, just expect it to be better). I like having the option to boot into OSX for better battery life. The trackpads tend to superior too. Also the mag adapter has saved me so many times it's ridiculous.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

I figure if OS X gets too stripped down ill go for RedHat.  It seems quite nice.

Suse fanboy but mainly a *buntu user (for the practicalities of using certain software) but I've got to say if you want the best out of the box, everything in the repos and relatively up to date and working right development environment RedHat and Fedora are the bees knees. I would even go as far as saying that for that usage case they're not just the best choice of Linux distro but possibly the best choice of OS too.

Could you expand on the *buntu vs redhat/fedora?

[suicidaleggroll]

Could you expand on the *buntu vs redhat/fedora?

RHEL is a non-free server distro (yes, you have to pay a subscription fee for it).  Historically it's been rock-solid, but with version 7 I think they took a step backward.  Hopefully they finish working out the kinks with the systemd integration over the next couple of years to get it back to the level 6 was.  CentOS is a free spinoff of RHEL that's 99% compatible and follows the same release/maintenance schedule, but doesn't come with any support.

I haven't been a fan of Fedora since around version 15, stability seemed to take a nose dive after that.  It's the bleeding edge testbed for Redhat, where they work out the bugs before implementing them in RHEL.  It has a 6-month release cycle and only 12 months of support, so you need to reinstall pretty regularly.

Ubuntu is one of the most popular distros, it has a big repository with tons of software.  The default DE "Unity" is a touch-screen-oriented Metro-like POS with built-in spyware, but there are other DEs available.  I despise Canonical so I stay as far away from Ubuntu as I can get.  I suggest trying Mint first, as it still uses the same software repositories but it isn't affiliated with Canonical.

My choice in distro is CentOS for servers/workstations where stability is what's important, and OpenSUSE for desktops/laptops where hardware compatibility and more recent software versions are what's important.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

I didn't realize Fedora went south. Also wasn't aware centos and redhat were that close to each-other. Ill look into centos Thanks   

[Stonent]

Where I work, sometimes the video cards the engineers have cost as much as the computer itself.

[Mechanical Menace]

Could you expand on the *buntu vs redhat/fedora?

Main advantage a *buntu has is third party support. To the extent that if you try even filing a bug report for some things and aren't running an LTS *buntu you have to jump through some right hoops to get it taken seriously. The massive repos aren't that much of an advantage either that many packages are seriously outdated or just broken. The need for PPAs, while having some advantages when done right, can break all sorts across your install. Unity isn't actually that bad if you uninstall the Amazon integration. Using a third party driver not included in the repos can be murder, but if you're happy not always having the latest GPU driver is handled well enough. That been said I almost always end up having it as my main general purpose OS because for a lot of things it just works whether it's running on my gaming rig or nasty old netbook. Never use a printer though and I'm sure they're still a problem.

Fedora is unapologetically bleeding edge and makes no secret that if your install doesn't break at times you're lucky. I really like it but because of said bleeding edgeness it'll never be more than a CSs or software engineers toy.

As mentioned CentOS is the best free way to get RHEL. Rock solid but can be harder work to install than Fedora or a *buntu. I run CentOS on my build servers.

But the main selling point for Fedora or RHEL (and it's derivatives) for me is that the in repo cross compilers aren't just up to date with the rest of the system and don't just have decent support for libraries but actually work properly with said libraries without having to do a lot of shit by hand, which if you're going to do you might as well just build it all by hand anyway. Mingw's GCC tends to be a bit behind but that seems to just be the case with mingw anyway.

[karoru]

For me the most important thing in these new Mac Pros is ridiculous form factor. Old series of Mac Pros had semi-decent tower type case where you could put at least few hard disks or whatever. I know that nowadays Apple goes with making their computers look like they're on life support when used in any serious application, but come on, it's their top-end "pro" machine and I can't even whack few cheap 1 TB harddisks inside? Even cheapest PC desktop motherboards tend to have 6 or so SATA ports and even Chinese $20 case has few 3.5" drive bays.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

For me the most important thing in these new Mac Pros is ridiculous form factor. Old series of Mac Pros had semi-decent tower type case where you could put at least few hard disks or whatever. I know that nowadays Apple goes with making their computers look like they're on life support when used in any serious application, but come on, it's their top-end "pro" machine and I can't even whack few cheap 1 TB harddisks inside? Even cheapest PC desktop motherboards tend to have 6 or so SATA ports and even Chinese $20 case has few 3.5" drive bays.

Yeah it doesnt make sense. Most people buy a workstation for functionality. Apples response is "look at all the thunderbolt ports!". Who is going to be doing serious work with a bunch of equipment loosely connected cable connections, each needing their own power supply sources? That's the opposite of reliable, and only needed because the computer itself doesn't provide the functionality to begin with. Not to mention it destroys the compactness and efficiency they used to justify the design. Makes no sense to me. They had the design mostly right with the first gen intel MacPros imo.

[tooki]

Yeah it doesnt make sense. Most people buy a workstation for functionality. Apples response is "look at all the thunderbolt ports!". Who is going to be doing serious work with a bunch of equipment loosely connected cable connections, each needing their own power supply sources? That's the opposite of reliable, and only needed because the computer itself doesn't provide the functionality to begin with. Not to mention it destroys the compactness and efficiency they used to justify the design. Makes no sense to me. They had the design mostly right with the first gen intel MacPros imo.

It makes sense only within the context I stated in an earlier post: They've designed the "new" Mac Pro as a dedicated pro video editing system. These days, film and TV production studios don't mess around with local storage. They use high-performance multi-user storage arrays (some Ethernet, some Thunderbolt) designed specifically for video use. For them, a high-performance graphics* node (which is essentially what the new Mac Pro is) makes sense. Everyone else is like "WTF??"

Indeed, one of the things I love about my 2008 Mac Pro is the bunch of drive bays, so I can have my boot SSD, my media hard disk, another with Windows 7 on it, and one big hard disk for automatic backup. And I do worry about what my next system will be, given that at 8 years old, it's entirely possible for this one to just up and die**. I guess I will be buying some sort of multi-bay external drive enclosure. :/ I've also considered biting the bullet with money I don't have, and upgrading to a final-model "old" Mac Pro that at least is a few years younger.


* But Apple hasn't updated the Mac Pro GPUs in ages, has it? Are the ones in it even that great any more??
** To this machine's credit, at 8 years old, with just some extra RAM, an upgraded GPU, and an SSD, it performs just as well as a modern midrange Mac. It's been an incredibly good value in the long run, and I've never had a computer as stable as this one. (The only true crash, as in kernel panic, I've ever had was when a RAM module died while the machine was running.)

[VK3DRB]

Copying some music onto your portable music player...

Apple iTunes: 188 MB, hard to use, full of bugs, full of ads, files can be wiped without notice.
PC Cut 'n Paste: 0 MB, easy to use, no bugs, no ads, no files lost.

[tooki]

Copying some music onto your portable music player...

Apple iTunes: 188 MB, hard to use, full of bugs, full of ads, files can be wiped without notice.
PC Cut 'n Paste: 0 MB, easy to use, no bugs, no ads, no files lost.

188MB vs 0MB? Huh? I can only assume you're not talking about the actual music files themselves, since they take the same space no matter how you transfer them.

I gather you've only used iTunes on Windows (where it is indeed a bit buggier than on the Mac)? But regardless of platform, it's hardly "full of ads" (I don't see any), and files on the player only get "wiped without notice" if you've set it to automatically sync particular things, and something you had no longer fits the criteria. (iTunes doesn't automatically delete local files, other than the optional setting to delete watched podcasts.)

The downside to manually copying files to a player is that you have to dick around with files manually, which not everyone wants to do. In contrast, using a program like iTunes, you can do things like have it automatically sync all music added within the past 3 months, and all music rated 3 stars or higher plus all music you've listened to at least 10 times. So you choose a portable player you like based on this: if you want an Apple iPod, iPhone, or iPad, then you use iTunes. If you want a different player, then you copy files manually to its memory card. In both cases, the choice of operating system and computer hardware is entirely irrelevant.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the original question of choosing a DIY PC vs a Mac Pro. Nobody is buying a Mac Pro to host their music library — you can do that on a 5 year old used Mac mini with an external USB 2 hard disk, or a beater PC saved from the dumpster.