EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope

[nctnico]

A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.

I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

By your logic you cannot call Keithley (rebadges Itech and Picotest) or Keysight (rebadged Rigol or Preamble probes) A-brands as well.

You have to look at the big picture. If a company is really better at making probes then it makes more sense to rebadge. Also Keysight has stopped rebadging Rigols a long time ago. Probably due to quality control and serviceability issues.

And Keithley isn't Keithley any more. Fluke, Tektronix and Keithley (and probably a few other T&M brands) are all owned by Danaher which is primarily an investment company with short term goals. There is a lot of rebranding going on at these companies. But not with typical low-end gear like Lecroy does.

Keithley psu:


GW Instek psu:


The WS3000 is (AFAIK) a cooperation between Siglent and Lecroy. Siglent did the hardware, Lecroy did the software. Siglent sells them in China and Lecroy sells them in the rest of the world. The new version may be worth looking at as is seems it got a (much needed) speed upgrade. But probably no peak-detect which can bite you in the behind at lower samplerates (especially with short memory settings).

[tautech]

The LeCroy equivalent, a Siglent SDS3000 screenshot suggests otherwise:

So Siglent made the HW and LeCroy gave the X-Stream software?

Essentially correct however right from the get go it was a collaborative effort.
As there was already a relationship with Siglent products branded as LeCroy one can only suspect LeCroy went to Siglent with a 'product spec' in mind and that resulted in the collaboration that produced the SDS3k/WS3k.
That resulted in marketing agreements so that LeCroy had western markets for WS3k models for themselves.
I even inquired about getting a SDS3k for myself but it was declined by Siglent.

Interestingly the upgraded models, SDS3kX still display an association with LeCroy on the display:



Whereas the upcoming SDS5kX models don't:

[lukier]

And Keithley isn't Keithley any more. Fluke, Tektronix and Keithley (and probably a few other T&M brands) are all owned by Danaher which is primarily an investment company with short term goals. There is a lot of rebranding going on at these companies.

So LeCroy is not A-brand, Keithley, Fluke and Tektronix are not Keithley anymore so it is only Keysight left then as an A-brand (btw, they also rebadged Escort stuff like U3400 or handheld DMMs before they acquired them).

Essentially correct however right from the get go it was a collaborative effort.
As there was already a relationship with Siglent products branded as LeCroy one can only suspect LeCroy went to Siglent with a 'product spec' in mind and that resulted in the collaboration that produced the SDS3k/WS3k.

SDS/WS3 is ARM based, right? So I guess LeCroy had to rewrite all their Windows DCOM crap that X-Stream is made of Probably a lot of work.

Edit: disclaimer - I have both LeCroy and Siglent (and some other). My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.

[tautech]

Essentially correct however right from the get go it was a collaborative effort.
As there was already a relationship with Siglent products branded as LeCroy one can only suspect LeCroy went to Siglent with a 'product spec' in mind and that resulted in the collaboration that produced the SDS3k/WS3k.

SDS/WS3 is ARM based, right? So I guess LeCroy had to rewrite all their Windows DCOM crap that X-Stream is made of Probably a lot of work.

Edit: disclaimer - I have both LeCroy and Siglent (and some other). My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.

Honestly I don't know however Wuerstchenhund in this old thread about them thought they were CE based, see reply # 19:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent_s-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/

Member tv84 in this recent thread has apparently confirmed they are WinCE:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds3000-anyone-has-one/

What the new 3kX model runs for an OS is probably just the same with processor upgrades responsible for the much reduced boot times.

[mrpackethead]

who decides what is A brand and a B Brand.  its only in your head.

[David Hess]

I agree with nctnico that ownership by Danaher is a good indicator of a B brand.  Given a choice, Fluke and Tektronix would not be my first choice for quality test equipment.

Keysight/Agilent/HP is still an A brand in most respects but even they outsource production of things like oscilloscope probes.

[tautech]

who decides what is A brand and a B Brand.  its only in your head.

Yep.

I agree with nctnico that ownership by Danaher is a good indicator of a B brand.  Given a choice, Fluke and Tektronix would not be my first choice for quality test equipment.

Keysight/Agilent/HP is still an A brand in most respects but even they outsource production of things like oscilloscope probes.

What is now is only a snapshot in time. Many of us have seen the rise and fall of all manner of brands so to then well know; 'every dog has its day'.

No brands are without 'issues'......we are all still waiting for miracles.

[Fungus]

Dave's is the same hardware and firmware that is shipping with production models - so you can't call it pre-production or beta.

Why not? I bet all the non-managers at Rigol do.

[Fungus]

A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.

I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

Rigol has been known to write firmware for Agilent/Keysight. 

https://mightyohm.com/blog/2009/11/agilent-dso1000-firmware-update-confirms-rigol-connection/

[Martin72]

The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.

That may be the reason why the promised Firmware update for the WS3024 still is missing (ask for it 8 months ago, answer was it comes "quick" ).

[mikeselectricstuff]

I had a long chat with a LeCroy guy at Electronica, on why you would buy from them and not Siglent. His response was that Lecroy have repair facilities and spares ( board-swap) in Europe and US for quicker servicing, they are rewriting all the manuals, and there are getting some additional approvals, though he didn't know exactly what this covered.

[TK]

A typical A-brand has a portfolio for which they designed most of the products themselves. Having all the intimate knowledge about the product means problems can be solved quickly. Lecroy has never done that. They design mostly high-end gear with very nice features and augment their portfolio with rebadges from other brands. The result is that they can't support all of their products in a way you'd expect from an A-brand.

I also don't get why LeCroy insists on rebadging stuff, their brand is worth more than their markup on Siglent, but it is common market trend unfortunately.

Rigol has been known to write firmware for Agilent/Keysight. 

https://mightyohm.com/blog/2009/11/agilent-dso1000-firmware-update-confirms-rigol-connection/

That was way back when Rigol used to manufacture the low end series for Agilent.  Since then, Rigol firmware just got worse.  Actually the DS1102E scope was really nice and very responsive in 2008... not anymore

[0xdeadbeef]

My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.

Indeed. Actually, Lecroy was and still is the A-brand for DSOs. After all, Walter Lecroy invented the DSO (ignoring Nicolet did some low speed DSO first) and Teledyne Lecroy still defines the bleeding edge of high speed DSOs. Even their upper midrange stuff features 12bit and multiple GHz. So putting them in the same league as Rigol or Siglent shows either a total lack of knowledge or ill will.
And yes, the WS 3000(z) line is the entry line but obviously Lecroy learned from that Wave Ace disaster which was the result of trying to rebrand a Siglent scope without too much effort.
The way of cooperation chosen for the WS3000 is probably the best possible soluton for Lecroy to produce an entry level scope that still is a "real" Lecroy as much as possible with the given price and HW limitations.

Side note: R&S most certainly was and is an A-brand for HF/broadcasting equipment and their high end scopes wre/are most probably competitive to Lecroy in the same price range, but the entry level scopes (like RTB2000/RTM3000/RTA4000 etc.) IMHO are the result of the acquisition of Hameg. And while Hameg certainly created some proper and robust equipment over the decades, they never were considered an A-brand for scopes (or power supplies or whatever) and already reduced production costs before the acquisition by producing their stuff mainly in the Czech Republic.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't think anyone would question that the current R&S scope range is in the same league as Keysight, and certainly way above the Rigols and Siglents of this world.

[Martin72]

And yes, the WS 3000(z) line is the entry line but obviously Lecroy learned from that Wave Ace disaster which was the result of trying to rebrand a Siglent scope without too much effort.
The way of cooperation chosen for the WS3000 is probably the best possible soluton for Lecroy to produce an entry level scope that still is a "real" Lecroy as much as possible with the given price and HW limitations.

I think the wave ace was from Uni-T.
The WS3000 series is very slow - after a few weeks ago we bought our WS3024, the new WS3000Z was launched.
With more "horsepower"...thank you LeCroy ( for the 3000Z series a power analyzing option is avaible, for the 3000 not)

Topic:

Playing around with my MSO5074, again.

The noisefloor is sometimes irritating - you know, you feed in an proper signal (from my siglent AWG) and it looks "thick", in normal aquisition mode.
But this is also known by other rigols I had (DS1000Z, DS2000).
PWM couldn´t be displayed "stable", like lecroy and siglent ( ha, ha..) do.
All math function can be displayed alone, without the source channel - 
The mathfunction "Lowpass" irritates me...you can only set the frequency in Mhz ranges - trying to set it to e.g. 1Khz it displays "Over lower"....
Must check it again at work, thought I can filter the sinewave out of the pwm.
Speed general is superb.
The fan, again, is very...very annoying loud 
On my "hitlist" of noisy fans it takes the second place.
First place take the lecroy wavejet with its 40mm fan - you can her it even out of the room....

[nctnico]

My point is that calling LeCroy B-brand is not right by a long shot. Actually, it might be a smart move, because they don't have to spend company resources on the low end stuff and can focus on the serious products.

Indeed. Actually, Lecroy was and still is the A-brand for DSOs. After all, Walter Lecroy invented the DSO (ignoring Nicolet did some low speed DSO first) and Teledyne Lecroy still defines the bleeding edge of high speed DSOs. Even their upper midrange stuff features 12bit and multiple GHz. So putting them in the same league as Rigol or Siglent shows either a total lack of knowledge or ill will.

You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear. So on one hand you have a company which builds really high-end oscilloscopes and on the other hand sells low end gear. It is like being served a hamburger from McDonalds in a 5 star restaurent. It just doesn't add up.

[0xdeadbeef]

I think the wave ace was from Uni-T.

Nope:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-lecroy-wave-ace/

The WS3000 series is very slow - after a few weeks ago we bought our WS3024, the new WS3000Z was launched.
With more "horsepower"...thank you LeCroy ( for the 3000Z series a power analyzing option is avaible, for the 3000 not)

The WS3000 is painfully slow with large memory depth and low sampling frequency. It's OKish when you reduce sample depth or increase sample frequency.
The "z" update is also supposed to have a better (LED backlit) LCD with capacitive touch.  Actually, I could imagine the WS3000z fixes most of the issues the WS3000.

I don't think anyone would question that the current R&S scope range is in the same league as Keysight, and certainly way above the Rigols and Siglents of this world.

I certainly don't question that. Anyway, "genuine" R&S stuff like RTO2000 or RTP is certainly totally A-brand in the same league as middle/upper Lecroy scopes.
It's just that R&S acquired Hameg to get a foot in the entry level and lower midrange market but IMHO this was an ideal partnership were the current RTB/RTM line combines knowledge from Hameg and R&S to something that is better than the previous Hameg scopes and yet much cheaper than the previous R&S models.
The cooperation between Keysight and Rigol or Lecroy and Siglent was/is way more asymmetrical and still the WS3000 as a result of the Lecroy/Siglent cooperation is more of a Lecroy than a rebranded Siglent.

You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear.

Again, this lacks any dedication to the details discussed here in the last years regarding the cooperation of Lecroy with Iwatsu and Siglent. So I guess it's pointless to repeat what was discussed a million times before.
Just believe what you want, but calling Lecroy a B-brand for DSOs is still utter nonsense.

[Martin72]

The mathfunction "Lowpass" irritates me...you can only set the frequency in Mhz ranges - trying to set it to e.g. 1Khz it displays "Over lower"....

Test it again, the lowest avaible cutoff frequency depends on the timebase.




By 500µs/div 100Khz lowest cutoff....

For what was it good for ?
If I want to filter out a 400Hz Sinewave from a 10Khz pwm, I would choose 1Khz cutoff LP, but it would never function because in this timebase the cutoff frequency is in mhz range….what the heck ?!
Did I misunderstood the function - or is it a point to fix ?

[mrpackethead]

And I ask again, what qualification do you need to join the AB police?

[tautech]

And I ask again, what qualification do you need to join the AB police?

None !

Just the ability to keep up with the incidences of test equipment failures here on the leading electronics forum.
NAND corruption, PSU failures etc shouldn't happen in any equipment under 5 yrs old.

User misuse or failure to RTFM is another matter.

[Fungus]

NAND corruption, PSU failures etc shouldn't happen in any equipment under 5 yrs old.

The real world thinks it's much better to pay half price and accept a tiny chance of failure.

[bd139]

Problem that comes with this is that a small failure rate tends to come with vocal customers. Look at all the shit Apple get.

Edit: I should say that the stuff is literally disposable pricing now. The whole scope comes in less than a decent vertical plugin for a Tek 7000 would cost today.

[nctnico]

NAND corruption, PSU failures etc shouldn't happen in any equipment under 5 yrs old.

The real world thinks it's much better to pay half price and accept a tiny chance of failure.

Mistakes are inevitable but there is a big difference between receiving a bag with capacitors (if you are lucky) and a piece of equipment being transported and repaired for free. Also lets not forget about the difference in sales volumes. Anecdotal evidence tends to exclude that.

[nctnico]

You seem to forget Lecroy is selling Siglent gear. So on one hand you have a company which builds really high-end oscilloscopes and on the other hand sells low end gear

Again, this lacks any dedication to the details discussed here...

Here, I fixed the selective quoting for you so now all the details are within context as it should be.

[Fungus]

Problem that comes with this is that a small failure rate tends to come with vocal customers. Look at all the shit Apple get.

You need good customer service.

(and a way of knowing if the phone has been dropped in water then dried out before claiming "it died for no reason at all!")

Edit: I should say that the stuff is literally disposable pricing now. The whole scope comes in less than a decent vertical plugin for a Tek 7000 would cost today.

Result: A new class of customer. People who would never think of owning a Tek 7000 are buying this cheap stuff.