Author Topic: New Agilent scopes (Read 385502 times)

bandtank · « **Reply #325 on:** April 25, 2011, 10:40:08 pm »

The front ends are different. You can't hack it in software.

Leo Bodnar · « **Reply #326 on:** April 25, 2011, 11:01:41 pm »

Quote from: bandtank on April 25, 2011, 10:40:08 pm

The front ends are different. You can't hack it in software.

Wow. How do you know? I have heard it as well.

mikeselectricstuff · « **Reply #327 on:** April 25, 2011, 11:08:52 pm »

Quote from: Leo Bodnar on April 25, 2011, 11:01:41 pm

Quote from: bandtank on April 25, 2011, 10:40:08 pm
The front ends are different. You can't hack it in software.

Wow. How do you know? I have heard it as well.

Dave has previously mentioned that his Agilent contact confirmed this.

Leo Bodnar · « **Reply #328 on:** April 25, 2011, 11:18:53 pm »

"Different" might mean a missing 10pF cap in LP filter or it might mean complete redesign.

I am looking for the 1st hand experience and possibly some substance, not a patronising notice that someone heard what Dave heard from somebody at Agilent. I heard it too.

bandtank · « **Reply #329 on:** April 25, 2011, 11:23:12 pm »

Why are you getting so belligerent about this? Use a little bit of common sense and you can figure it out. There is no way a 500MHz capable front end will be crippled and sold at 70/100/200MHz. They cost a fortune which is why they represent the majority of the upgrade cost. Also, you could use a few minutes of your own time to pick up the phone and call Agilent or a distributor. I made a phone call, got some information, and that was it. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.

Leo Bodnar · « **Reply #330 on:** April 25, 2011, 11:29:04 pm »

Quote from: bandtank on April 25, 2011, 11:23:12 pm

Why are you getting so belligerent about this? Use a little bit of common sense and you can figure it out. There is no way a 500MHz capable front end will be crippled and sold at 70/100/200MHz. They cost a fortune which is why they represent the majority of the upgrade cost. Also, you could use a few minutes of your own time to pick up the phone and call Agilent or a distributor. I made a phone call, got some information, and that was it. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.

Can I repeat my original question just for you? I am interested in schematic differences in <=200MHz and >=350MHz main boards if anybody has looked yet.

bandtank · « **Reply #331 on:** April 25, 2011, 11:34:10 pm »

Quote from: Leo Bodnar on April 25, 2011, 11:29:04 pm

Quote from: bandtank on April 25, 2011, 11:23:12 pm
Why are you getting so belligerent about this? Use a little bit of common sense and you can figure it out. There is no way a 500MHz capable front end will be crippled and sold at 70/100/200MHz. They cost a fortune which is why they represent the majority of the upgrade cost. Also, you could use a few minutes of your own time to pick up the phone and call Agilent or a distributor. I made a phone call, got some information, and that was it. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.

Can I repeat my original question just for you? I am interested in schematic differences in <=200MHz and >=350MHz main boards if anybody has looked yet.

I didn't probe any deeper than what I said in my last post. I was told the front ends are physically different which is why you are required to send the scope in for the upgrade. I assume the boards are also different to accommodate higher frequency signals, at least in the front end. The majority of the boards are probably the same or very similar. Without having access to an upgraded bandwidth scope I can't be sure as I haven't seen the differences for myself and a sales rep wouldn't know the answer to this technical of a question most likely.

EEVblog · « **Reply #332 on:** April 26, 2011, 05:53:53 am »

Quote from: Leo Bodnar on April 25, 2011, 10:36:52 pm

I am very interested to learn the difference between the 100/200MHz and 350/500MHz mainboards.

Is it a radical redesign of the front-end and tighter acquisition block or just a few software selection jumpers here and there?

It is a completely redesigned front end. It's not just a jumper or bandwidth switch, you have to send the scope back and they change out the entire main board.
The 500MHz front end is much more expensive than the 200MHz front end.
I asked and was told this directly from one of the head honcho's in the Agilent scope design group.
They actually expect very few people to upgrade the bandwidth, so it is done more for marketing and market position than anything.

Dave.

tnt · « **Reply #333 on:** April 26, 2011, 09:12:25 am »

Yes I guess most "industry" people will directly take the right BW. Only "hobbyist" might upgrade later (because they either get more advanced, or spread the cost), and again, going over 200MHz to 350MHz becomes very expensive making that particular transition unlikely.

It's also unlikely we'll see a complete comparaison of both frontend because they're are under a soldered shield and I'm certainly not about to unsolder it to see what's behind it :p And I guess a lot of other people won't do it either. Removing a few screws to picture the mainboard is OK ... unsoldering stuff on a pretty expensive piece of equipement is something else.

Rufus · « **Reply #334 on:** April 26, 2011, 01:11:49 pm »

Quote from: tnt on April 26, 2011, 09:12:25 am

Removing a few screws to picture the mainboard is OK

Dave tore down a 500M scope so we know what that looks like. I would imagine the 100/200M 3000s have the same front end as the 2000s. Can't see the autoprobe stuff needing much shielding so how big are the cans on the 100/200 3000s? That could be a clue.

tnt · « **Reply #335 on:** April 26, 2011, 03:26:14 pm »

Well he didn't remove the cans ... so we have no idea what the front end really looks like ...
And the autoprobe stuff is not at all there, it's on the same PCB as the front panel, not on the main board.

tnt · « **Reply #336 on:** April 27, 2011, 07:46:32 am »

For anyone interested, I obtained the U-boot source code from Agilent (GPL request). They don't have a proper setup to distribute the GPL stuff they use since there are so few requests, they handle it by hand which takes some time (and they're allowed to charge a nominal fee).

So since the GPL allows me to redistribute it myself after having obtained it, here it is :

http://www.246tnt.com/files/Uboot_Source_2.4.14526.11931.zip

EEVblog · « **Reply #337 on:** April 27, 2011, 12:06:26 pm »

I did try and get a couple of photos under the shield, but wasn't really successful.
Have to get around to posting those photos online some time...

Dave.

tnt · « **Reply #338 on:** April 27, 2011, 01:36:54 pm »

@EEVBlog: Yes please just upload them somewhere quickly and let us sort through them, should be pretty quick

Leo Bodnar · « **Reply #339 on:** April 30, 2011, 08:39:32 pm »

Just to let you chaps know - the frequency resolution of the internal wave generator is at least 1Hz when accessed via VISA COM library SICL commands.

I tried to quickly assess the transmission of certain narrow bandwidth bandpass filter and found that the best resolution I can dial via front panel knobs is only +-1kHz around 9.950MHz. Way too rough for my purposes.

I have then whipped up an Agilent Interactive IO utility, punched in :WGEN:FREQ 9950001 and bingo - the output freq changed to 9,950,001 Hz.
This is confirmed by picking up the signal on my communication receiver and observing beat frequency with the local oscillator. It does vary with at least 1Hz steps.
I can't vouch for absolute accuracy of the frequency but this is good enough for me as I am only interested in relative values.

I am off to program a VB script to sweep the input frequency and read the Vpp filter output voltage from the scope and make nice charts.

Leo Bodnar · « **Reply #340 on:** April 30, 2011, 11:11:42 pm »

I like this scope. Internal wave generator, USB link, simple VB script and Bob's your uncle!

mikeselectricstuff · « **Reply #341 on:** April 30, 2011, 11:29:48 pm »

Quote from: Leo Bodnar on April 30, 2011, 08:39:32 pm

I have then whipped up an Agilent Interactive IO utility, punched in :WGEN:FREQ 9950001 and bingo - the output freq changed to 9,950,001 Hz.

I may be mis-remembering but I think on the 6000 at least that you can enter VISA commands via the web interface - if so I'd expect there to be similar functionality on the newer ones. Can be handy if you want a wierd timebase setting to just fill the screen with a waveform, or make the grid lines line up with bit positions at odd data rates.

jasonh · « **Reply #342 on:** May 04, 2011, 01:17:57 am »

I have been looking at scopes for a few days. I thought about something like the rigol as well as a separate function generator and the saleae. My plan is to use them for development with the atmel 8bit mcu's and on the other end of the scale for amplifiers/crossovers. I have broad interests so who knows what I may end up doing.

Then I saw Daves review. A grand for a scope like this. It was more than I was thinking about but I could swing it if I really wanted to. Then perhaps all those other features in it could replace the individual function generator and the saelae analyzer thoughts.

I was watching the video and convincing myself by the second that this was worth the hefty jump in price. Then the reality hit towards the end. The costs added up quick. I will buy a saelae and another func gen. (Wish I hadn't lost one already!)

So, I look around the net only to find that you cant import them due to the dealer networks and we have one company in New Zealand selling them. Our NZ dollar is not as good as the Aussie, you guys have it good for now. So the basic 70MHz option with no extras is a lovely $2000 or $2500 for the 100MHz, no options. Gulp.

Boy, did I go from a high to a low fast. No pricing to upgrade from 70MHz to 100MHz but I think it will be more than $500 if I wanted to spread the cost by doing that. Then again, I am not sure that 70MHz is where I should start for working with the MCU's?

I was going to 'upgrade' the rigol to 100MHz if I got it. Now I seem stuck. I have sort of gone off the Rigol after seeing this and it seems like there is not a lot in between anymore. I mean I could spend $1500 on a chinese one but would I then kick myself for not speding the 2k, or am I wrong?

Even with the $$ conversion the aussies still get the 100 for the price of the 70. No wonder dealers like dealer networks that block international sales..

bandtank · « **Reply #343 on:** May 04, 2011, 01:24:49 am »

If you can afford an Agilent scope you would be doing yourself a huge disservice by getting a Rigol. You said yourself you have broad interests and you don't know what you'll be doing, so getting 3 separate devices with no upgrade path makes little to no sense. Getting a single device that can do everything, and not only can it do it, but it does it much better, makes a lot more sense.

There is no comparison in terms of quality. If you want a real piece of test equipment get an Agilent. If you want to cut corners and save money, get a Rigol.

jasonh · « **Reply #344 on:** May 04, 2011, 01:34:36 am »

Yes, I know you are right. I typed out that last post as I was a bit disappointed at first thinking it was within reach to find it wasn't.

$2500 for the 100MHz version. I might be able to get the 70 depending on what I can juggle but any add on's will be well down the road after doing that. If I was making money from it that would be a different story - or maybe not, you still only have what you have to pay for it

I had really hoped that including local taxes/currency exchange rates etc there still wouldn't be a markup in the hundreds. Oh well, thats life.

bandtank · « **Reply #345 on:** May 04, 2011, 02:09:56 am »

Yeah, it's a still a hefty chunk of change for a hobbyist. I would still get the 70MHz Agilent if I were you because it is just such a nice piece of hardware and gives you what you need in 1 device even if you can't get it all right now. Of course, if you need the other features right now then that's something to consider.

joelby · « **Reply #346 on:** May 04, 2011, 02:15:26 am »

Can you get a friend in Australia (or the USA) to post or fly one over?

bandtank · « **Reply #347 on:** May 04, 2011, 02:21:23 am »

I would be happy to buy one in the USA for you. However, I'm betting it wouldn't end up saving you very much money after paying for international shipping and insurance twice.

jasonh · « **Reply #348 on:** May 04, 2011, 02:52:43 am »

Quote from: joelby on May 04, 2011, 02:15:26 am

Can you get a friend in Australia (or the USA) to post or fly one over?

Friend? Hang on, let me get my dictionary

Not sure, bandtank is probably right, coming from the states there would be little savings to weigh up against warranty issues etc. I wonder if they do an international warranty?

I really hate to do things half assed, especially if I want my gear to last a while. I am considering a couple of items I could sell to help cover it.

Although, spending that much money on the scope I do think I will go for the saleae analyzer for the interim and even then it would have to be a very nice one on the scope to spend the $$ to change over. Same for the generator, depending what I can source locally.

Oh well, I will hang back and see what interest I get on a few items I will try and flog. I wish I never saw the damn thing!

Leo Bodnar · « **Reply #349 on:** May 04, 2011, 09:30:38 am »

Jasonh,
What is your current list of equipment? If you are trying to set up an expensive lab before you know your exact requirements then you might lose a lot of cash.
If your goals are 8 bit micros and audio stuff then Agilent scope is useless investment.
You are good to go with a cheap $100 PC-based logic analyser and used 200-400MHZ 4 channel CRT Tek for $200-$300.
Majority of microcontroller projects can be debugged with just a bunch of LEDs and in-circuit debugger.
Don't spend all your budget on a pretty scope!
Leo


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Author Topic: New Agilent scopes (Read 385502 times)

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