Author Topic: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope  (Read 25982 times)

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Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« on: October 07, 2012, 02:39:08 pm »
Hi guys, I am trying to build an electronics lab so I can get some hands on experience in designing and building electronic/embedded systems. Last week I bought the x-Tronic 6040 rework station as my first piece of equipment for my "lab". Now I am looking to get an oscilloscope (don't really know how or why to use one, but apparently all electronics lab has one, so I guess I will need one  :o). I am looking at the Rigol DS1102D and the DS1102E. The DS1102E would be perfect price wise, while the DS1102D is kind of pushing it but I might be able to swing it. So the question is... Can anyone tell me if either of these two would cover all my electronic needs for a least a while as I am learning electronics? Maybe something that is comparable but cheaper. I only chose these because I saw them on Dave's blog.

Ps. My major at school is Computer Engineering, so I am looking to use these mainly in embedded systems design with analog component and maybe some RF stuff. 

Thanks for the help!  ;D
Slow and steady wins the race!
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2012, 03:53:44 pm »
Honest advice? Don't buy any tool until you actually need it. Both the scopes you mention are current models and are available off the shelf at short notice, so don't even bother until you reach the point where you have a real circuit you need to probe.

For embedded design and RF you might find that both the models you suggest are a bit short on bandwidth, depending on exactly what it is you're looking to probe. If you want to examine I2C and SPI buses then fine, but a 100 MHz scope won't show you anything very useful on, for example, a 50 MHz external memory bus.

Offline felixd

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 07:49:04 pm »
Hi,

Please find this video:

What I've bought is:
- Analog: Tektronix 2336 YA (100MHz, 2ch) - 2335 has similar spec, but has no digital counter.
Dave's teardown of Tektronix 2225 -

 - Digital: Owon DS8102V
(100MHz,  2ch, 2GSa/s shared - when two channels are used then 1GSa/s for each,10M sample memory !! :)
This one has big, nice screen 800x600, 2GSa/s and BIG memory ! That is why I bought this one.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 07:50:54 pm by felixd »
Pawel 'felixd' Wojciechowski
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Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 01:13:21 pm »
Thanks AndyC_772 for the advice. But I have some circuits that I want to build already. Specially the ones from Electronics I class. I would also like to see how the signal would change when going through a diode, resistor, inductor, transistor, etc. I think that an oscilloscope would help in that (correct me if I am wrong since I have never used one).

Hey felixd, thanks for the videos. I watched the first video that Dave put out on the Tektronix 2225. But had not seen this second one. I understand (at least now I do) that I need the most bandwidth I can afford. The problem is that those 100mhz+ oscilloscopes are over $1,000 bucks and thus way over my budget. After watching the videos, I was hopping that I could get a 100mhz analog one to learn how to use an oscilloscope and once I know what I am doing upgrade to a much bigger one. I can probably get one on ebay for about $200. What do you guys think?

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Offline felixd

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 01:40:54 pm »
Why 100MHz oscilloscopes cost more than 1,000$ ?

I've bought my Owon DS8102V for 666.6666666666667 $ =] LOOOL (just calculeted it now, changed from PLN to USD hahahaha). DEVIL price ! :D

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Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 02:00:04 pm »
I meant to say oscilloscopes that are over 100 mhz. Like 350mhz or 500 mhz are over $1,000. Although I was looking at a used Tektronix TEK 2465A for $527.00 (which is 350mhz) on ebay. So, in you opinion a 100mhz scope would not satisfy my needs at least for a while? (Ps. for embedded design, I am currently using the V2 ColdFire microcontrollers). 
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 02:18:58 pm »
you should focus on what you intend to do with it. I dont think you can do anything with a single scope.
if you want to analog design, audio, rf, go to a used analog scope with 350+MHz bandwith
if you want to do mostly microcontroler stuff, buy a digital récent one with as most as memory as possible
if it can interpret i2c spi etc it's a plus, but it's more expensive ...
or for small budget, an old used good analog/digital scope with limited memory, and a small device like the open logic sniffer
really cheap and good for small needs (but you need a computer to connect to and see...)
http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/open-workbench-logic-sniffer-p-612.html?cPath=174
 

Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 02:35:05 pm »
Thanks kripton2035 for the help! I am really lost here! I would hate to waste money on something that won't do me any good. I intend to work mostly with microcontroller stuff. When you say memory, are you referring to the bandwidth (mhz) or something else? Would you perhaps know of  equipment that I could find for below $1k that would meet my needs for a while? Thanks! :)
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Offline T4P

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 02:45:04 pm »
If you want to microcontrollers and stuff, use the right tools for the job. Use a logic analyzer like the logic sniffer that's cheap.
You can go up to 200MHz on that thing across 16 channels, or 100MHz across 32 channels if you buy the add-on "wing"
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 03:50:18 pm »
Thanks kripton2035 for the help! I am really lost here! I would hate to waste money on something that won't do me any good. I intend to work mostly with microcontroller stuff. When you say memory, are you referring to the bandwidth (mhz) or something else? Would you perhaps know of  equipment that I could find for below $1k that would meet my needs for a while? Thanks! :)

this is a nice tool today to do microcontroler stuff : Hameg - HMO722 - Oszilloskop, 2+8 Kanal 70 MHz, 2 GSa/s (around 1150 €)

but you need an additionnal logic probe HO3508 that costs 300€

and the decoding i2c spi uart software to install in the scope HO010 (300€)


but you can buy the scope first (it exists also in 100MHz and also 2 channels instead of 4 but this is not an upgradable feature)
and you can buy the logic probe and the software later when you need it you still have a usefull scope...
the rigol you named formerly doesnt have any interpret software available, and in my mind it's a big no no ...

I have and use an old fluke pm3394 4x200MHz analog/digital scope I bought used years ago. and a logic sniffer !
very nice only limited memory but it was huge at this time ...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 03:56:34 pm by kripton2035 »
 

Offline shebu18

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 03:55:44 pm »
For the 600€ of accessories you could buy a rigol and a log sniffer and some "nerd food" and start exploring stuff.

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Offline tlu

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2012, 09:14:50 pm »
Hi Zorthgo,

What are you located? I have two 100Mhz analog scope in excellent condition if you are interested. If you are anywhere in the US I maybe able to ship it to you. Let me know if that is an option for you. Both are going for $180.

Thanks,
Tim
 

Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2012, 02:50:36 am »
 Thanks kripton2035! Than Hameg is a beauty. But I was thinking about it and the price is really steep for a learning tool. Although I definitely want one of those in the future, I think I will go with getting an analog scope + a logic sniffer for now until I actually know what I am doing. Right now I can't justify spending over $2000 for the 100MHZ since I barely know how to use them. Since I can't even understand a quarter of what you guys are saying, I feel a little apprehensive about dropping that much dough. But thanks for the suggestion. 

Can you tell me what I should be looking for on an analog oscilloscope in order to be able to pair it with the logic sniffer so that I can use it for embedded design? Thanks again!

Thanks for the suggestion T4P! I guess I'll be going that way.  :)
Slow and steady wins the race!
 

Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2012, 02:53:25 am »
A more specific question would be... Would a 100mhz analog scope with a logic sniffer be enough to get my feet wet in the world of embedded design? Thanks!
Slow and steady wins the race!
 

Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2012, 03:12:29 am »
Sorry for all the questions but, is a PHILIPS FLUKE PM3394 200 MHZ OSCILLOSCOPE for $650 + tax + shipping a good price?
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 06:38:25 am »
I would say they are around $400 at these days.
but it depends on the seller... if it is fully calibrated, with a warranty then $650 is ok.
 

Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2012, 12:17:11 am »
Can anyone tell me anything about the OWON SDS8102 100MHz 2GSa/s Deep Memory Digital Storage Oscilloscope 2-channel with LAN interface? There's not much on that particular oscilloscope. Thanks!
Slow and steady wins the race!
 

Offline tlu

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2012, 12:06:09 pm »
Can anyone tell me anything about the OWON SDS8102 100MHz 2GSa/s Deep Memory Digital Storage Oscilloscope 2-channel with LAN interface? There's not much on that particular oscilloscope. Thanks!

Check out mermad's review of the sds7102 on youtube which is the same scope but it's 100Mhz bandwidth instead of 200Mhz.
 

Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2012, 02:11:16 pm »
Thanks guys for all the help!  I have learned so much about oscilloscope in the last week with all of you help, the blogs here. YOU GUYS ROCK!

I am pretty sure I am going with the Owon SDS8102 or Owon SDS8202. But Like many suggested I will also buy an old analog oscilloscope off ebay so I can get a feeling for that technology. My fear of getting a used analog oscilloscope is also because I wouldn't know if it is calibrated or not. But if I have another scope to compare the two I think I will be able to manage!

And again... Thanks for all the help!  ;D
Slow and steady wins the race!
 

Offline larry42

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Re: Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2012, 04:13:43 pm »
Hi, IMO
 You don't need a 200MHz analog scope, 60 to 100MHz is plenty. Calibration is not an issue. Analog scopes aren't particularly accurate anyway.

I have a Hameg HMO1524 (plus analog scope or two) - got that one because it does 100MHz at 1mV/div. Would generally not bother with off brands like owon, but I guess their support and SW QA has become better nowadays




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Offline kripton2035

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2012, 04:29:19 pm »
+1 you really cannot compare hameg to owon ... ;)
 

Offline zorthgoTopic starter

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 02:13:24 am »
Can't compare the price either! ;)
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Offline tlu

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2012, 11:35:12 pm »
For the price, the Owon is an excellent scope in its class. The hardware supports some of the major name brands and their technology according some uses a single fast ADC so no interleaving of the ADC is required.

A scope is just a tool as I have found out and it depends on what you want to do with that tool. There is reviews that puts the 3 low-end dso on this forum. You should take a look at them. It reviews the Rigol DS1102E vs Hantek DSO5062B vs Owon SDS7102. All 3 scopes have their good and bad side.

Tim
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 12:53:09 am »
Rant mode = on.....
I know Dave has a whole video about analog scopes, and everyone keeps suggesting them to people, but seriously?  For someone doing embedded systems design, an analog scope's main purpose is to look cool in your lab and collect dust.  The main strength of an analog scope, especially the old ones people sell for under 100 USD, is to look at nice repetitive analog signals.  They answer questions like "how much does that cheap opamp distort the sine wave and what is approximately the amplitude". Or, "What is the time constant on that filter if I run it with a square wave". 

If you are doing basic embedded digital design, you need a scope with single shot memory captures that you can zoom in on.  That is the #1 thing you will use the most on a scope. Stuff like looking at data bursts, signal glitches, and voltage levels during events.  None of that is repetitive in the nature that makes them easy to measure on an analog scope.  And as a bonus, the DSO will do all of the basic analog scoping with the ability to accurately measure and report all the values like amplitude, frequency, duty cycle and stuff like that right on the screen with way more accuracy than counting boxes.  The traces will be different colors so you can actually tell them apart on the screen too.  100mhz is fine, but as always, buy as much bandwidth as you can afford.  Also don't go too old on used DSOs.  DSO technology exploded recently, especially in the low end.  Even with 10 year old tech, it's like model-T vs Ferrari.

You probably can't get away with just having a logic analyzer since you will need to see how circuits effect analog voltages, but having both is the ticket here.  Just the scope should be good enough to start and add a logic analyzer later.  Or get one you can later upgrade with the LA option. 

I'm going to get flamed for this, but I'm going to say it anyway.  Despite what people might tell you, there is no real good reason to own an analog scope for general purpose use these days if you can get your hands on a decent DSO.  If you need one of the specific reasons an analog scope is better, you already have a nice one right next to your nice DSO on the bench.  You don't see Dave using that analog hameg on a daily basis unless he's looking at an XY screen saver.  There is a reason for that.  Save the money and put it towards a DSO.  Pick up the analog scope later when you want to make your lab look cooler.  If you are considering spending 600 bucks, you can probably afford the rigol2000 series.  You probably won't regret it either from what I've been hearing.

On a separate note, if you are just starting out in the analog world and want to see how various component configurations effect circuits and such, I've found the best way to do that is in a simulator.  Pspice is pretty easy to use as they go.  You don't have to have a huge stock of components and equipment and you can try any value you want just by changing some text.  I know it's kind of cheating, but you should have a solid intuition of how circuits work and this is the fastest way to experiment.  Plus you probably won't let the smoke out of spice.


Rant mode = off... (sorry)
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: Help on Choosing my first Oscilloscope
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 06:40:48 am »
dave "plays" currently with an agilent 4x500 dso (or mso ?) scope ... 8)
that's NOT comparable with a basic analog scope ...
 


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